JJ Madara vs. RSM Naruto
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KidGamer65
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And Revived Madara didn't use Mokuton. Instead he got ***** slapped by the Bijuu. Are you going to tell me that he can't use Mokuton now? :lol The logic being used in this thread for Madara not being able to use Susanoo is atrocious and makes no sense.
-immortal-
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Madara would easily win.
He has the most experience ever of a shinobi in the naruto world.
He has the jubi which ultimately says he has the most durability and fire power out of the 2.
Madara was only trying to start the Tsuki no me and thats why sasuke and naruto didn't get molested yet.
Before madara even wanted to fight naruto and sasuke BZ did a dirty move.
So Alive 1 eyed rinnegan madara can rek - 8 bijuus + gaara + BSM naruto + Ems sasuke + Sm hashirama + tobirama but JJ madara can't molest 1 naruto :lol
Get of narutos massive horn narufangirls
He has the most experience ever of a shinobi in the naruto world.
He has the jubi which ultimately says he has the most durability and fire power out of the 2.
Madara was only trying to start the Tsuki no me and thats why sasuke and naruto didn't get molested yet.
Before madara even wanted to fight naruto and sasuke BZ did a dirty move.
So Alive 1 eyed rinnegan madara can rek - 8 bijuus + gaara + BSM naruto + Ems sasuke + Sm hashirama + tobirama but JJ madara can't molest 1 naruto :lol
Get of narutos massive horn narufangirls
It's funny because Sasuke who remains to be an Indra Transmigrant whereas Madara was not, couldn't even utilize the Sharingan's abilities (including Susano'o) until after the Tomoes in his Dojutsu returned.
My main point is that Juubidara was trying to obtain Kaguya's power. Hagoromo mentions that that consisted of both the Rinnegan and Sharingan's abilities:
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Madara didn't have that and so thus, was trying to obtain Kaguya's power which contained both the Rinnegan and the Sharingan, along with Hagoromo's power (Juubi + Rinnegan), so Madara needed the final piece (the Sharingan), in order to get close to Kaguya's power.
Logically, I agree that Madara should've been capable of using Susano'o, but should've Sasuke been able to too, especially since he was an Indra Transmigrant even though he didn't have access to his EMS abilities at the time because like you said, Susano'o can be used without the user's eyes.
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rinnegan human puppet
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rinnegan human puppet
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being an indras transmigrant isnt what gives you sharingan abilities or susano.. indra has nothing to do with the topic.Let me know what you didn't understand and I'll just provide a more simple explanation.
nothing you said made sense. sasuke temporarily loses eye power every time he uses ameno to travel dimensions. has nothing to do with madara or the topic.
yes madara was trying to obtain kaguyas power, still dont get what this has to do with the topic.
madara has both sharingan and rinnegan powers as shown when 1 rinnegan madara used susano against tobirama on top of the gedo statue. has nothing to do with the juubi or kaguya again those are his own powers.
last part doesn't make sense and I already explained why sasukes eye powers were weakened at the time.
isonworth18
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rinnegan human puppet
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:lol Arent you that guy that said naruto wins due to sword of nunoboko and storm 4 game feats of naruto powering his TBB with chakra from all the bijuus? you are just as dumb.
might as well give madara limbo ps, then naruto really gets slaughtered.
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TheSages456
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Madara wins with low diff.
CT shower flattens Naruto if he doesn't have Sasuke's support. Shin Jukai Koutan covers the battlefield, draining Naruto & any clone or Kurama avatar clone that he makes if they ever touch the ground.
Limbo would in conjunction with CT destroys Naruto without his avatar but if he uses that then the Shinju's branches drain Naruto's chakra again.
CT shower flattens Naruto if he doesn't have Sasuke's support. Shin Jukai Koutan covers the battlefield, draining Naruto & any clone or Kurama avatar clone that he makes if they ever touch the ground.
Limbo would in conjunction with CT destroys Naruto without his avatar but if he uses that then the Shinju's branches drain Naruto's chakra again.
Naruto is gonna get wrecked, a Bijuu full body susano was giving naruto a hard time, sasuke only has rikudou chakra to enhance his susano, madara on the other hand has rikudou senjutso to buff his susano, along with the f*cking juubi, madara rapes naruto with his juuusano ( juubidama enbedded with juusano blades) naruto is gonna die shitting, naruto would be wrecked soo hard, kushina would force her way out of naruto and suck madara's ballz, I will keep telling yall dellisional naruto/sasuke fans, they will never beat madara, they will never unless naruto gets a pair of rinnegan and sasuke becomes juubi jin
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By feats we have to go off what they used in the current state that they are in. (If we talking about dual Rinne Madara) Dual Rinne Madara never used Susano'o only feats of the Rinnegan & regeneration from being a JJ. (TSB)
RSM Naruto has the same abilities barr the Rinnegan.( But the extra thing about Naruto is that he can access the bijuu's chakra & Kekkei just by asking for it. Where as Madara cannot) SM Naruto has more experience than JJ Madara in senjutsu cause he's been a sage since he was 15.(Perfect Sage) Madara has more battle experience cause he grew up fighting elites all his life.
This dual would be intense if it's intent to kill. We've already seen Madara (Pretty much with intent to kill) from the manga/anime, but we've never really seen Naruto much less RSM Naruto with intent to kill. (With TSB)
So my vote would go to Uzumaki Naruto just based on the fact that he can reach the realm in the bijuu's psyche that Madara cannot to access power that he's never used before.
(Madara is restricted in the bijuu's chakra/kekkei because he forced his Rikudou, it wasn't given to him by choice of the bijuu)
Of cource it's just my opinion weather it sucks or not!...
RSM Naruto has the same abilities barr the Rinnegan.( But the extra thing about Naruto is that he can access the bijuu's chakra & Kekkei just by asking for it. Where as Madara cannot) SM Naruto has more experience than JJ Madara in senjutsu cause he's been a sage since he was 15.(Perfect Sage) Madara has more battle experience cause he grew up fighting elites all his life.
This dual would be intense if it's intent to kill. We've already seen Madara (Pretty much with intent to kill) from the manga/anime, but we've never really seen Naruto much less RSM Naruto with intent to kill. (With TSB)
So my vote would go to Uzumaki Naruto just based on the fact that he can reach the realm in the bijuu's psyche that Madara cannot to access power that he's never used before.
(Madara is restricted in the bijuu's chakra/kekkei because he forced his Rikudou, it wasn't given to him by choice of the bijuu)
Of cource it's just my opinion weather it sucks or not!...
That's not true since naruto's gudoudamas come back to him after he throws them at meteors that are kilometers above him. Then there's the fact that naruto doesn't even need them when he can fire bijuu rasenshurikens.
The only thing that was attributed to onmyouton was juubito gaining control over his juubi jinchuriki form. Nothing implied that it came from the rinnegan, the databook description of Naruto's mode said that it allowed him to understand the very nature of chakra which leads more credit to onmyouton being an ability of the TSB. Plus, onmyouton doesn't seem to be the reason juubito's shield withstood the juuidama, as it seems to only negate ninjutsu after the natural disintegrating power of juubito's staff destroy it. That's why juubito can protect himself from Toirama's explosions as well.
That doesn't matter, it still had to deform it enough for the barrier to pop. THe juubidama wasn't capable of doing it, thus juubito's arms must have inflicted more power on the area of the barrier that they touched than the juubidamas.
I believe I saw you make the claim before that a bijuudama >>> FRS correct? I also believe it's common knowledge that a FRS's explosion is much stronger than a normal explosion of the same size (feel free to contest this if you want to). The bijuudama that Naruto fired at sasuke:
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That doesn't make sense. The RSM powers up the rasenshuriken from smaller than a bijuu to way bigger than a bijuudama, therefore the bijuudama should logically have the same powerboost as well. Therefore the bijuudama explosion we see at VoTe have to be much more powerful than a normal bijuudama explosion and not comparable. Either that, or kishi simply didn't want to be consistent with his size scaling of the vote attacks.
Rasengan and Bijuu Dama aren't the same thing. Bijuu Dama's damage comes mostly from the explosion so Sasuke isn't going to magically take a ton more damage because instead of exploding feet away from him it actually hits him. Rasengan isn't like that and neither is Chidori.
So you're now saying that chakra quality is all that matters, not quantity.
Once again, you display that you don't even know what the bolded means. "literally based on nothing" is absolutely false when I've given an argument to base it on, regardless of the strength of the argument.
Except none of what you've just typed contradicts what you've replied to. Naruto's inability to use techniques through his clones is based on his skill with clones and maintaining them while they use techniques. If that wasn't true, then he wouldn't have a problem making as many clones as he wants on the battlefield while others draw in natural energy.
Yeah that's completely false, Pa attributed his inability to do so due to the difficulty of gathering and maintaining that natural energy, not because naruto simply had to maintain 2 clones. Plus, Naruto has made a thousand clones before, why would Pa state that '2 was his limit and he can only use 3 on the battlefield'? That doesn't make any sense, holding 2 clones and having 3 fight is no more difficult than all 5 fighting by your logic.
If the bolded were true, then Naruto wouldn't have been able to completely reform his BM avatar after it was swallowed up by the mokuryu or after it was destroyed by juubito. So that's flat out false. Hagoromo's RSM powerup gives naruto a far greater understanding of chakra as explained by the databook which is why he's capable of doing above what he's done in BM.
I'm not even contesting that Madara doesn't have those abilities, I'm doubting they will do what you think they will do. If Madara had those abilities, why didn't he use any of them in the manga? Why didn't kaguya aided by zetsu use them?
1) Madara had preta with no eyes, and with one eye he had rinnegan jutsu that he never had as an edo. There's absolutely no reason why he wouldn't have the basic rinnegan jutsu when he's shown more advanced ones with one eye.
2) NAruto attacked madara with youton rasenshuriken, so nope he was attacked by big jutsu. Also, it doesn't even matter if he got attacked by big jutsu, preta works on all jutsu, deva works on them too and those small jutsu were a huge threat to him as shown in the manga, so nope.
3) Yep so your stance is so absurdly implausible that you actually have to believe that Kaguya doesn't know the basic rinnegan jutsu when she has the eye that's even more powerful than the rinnegan, has the body of the guy who can use them without eyes, and has black zetsu, someone who's more knowledgable than everyone bar hagoromo.
4) How is Madara >> Sasuke? Especially the one-eyed version? Wait, are you now saying that Naruto's full bijuu mode isn't far stronger than what he used against Madara and Kaguya? Wow just wow.
He didn't use mokuton to subdue them because he would have gotten his butt kicked either way. He tries mokuton, the bijuu blast through it with bijuudama or naruto makes clones and cuts them, or the alliance steps in. There are so many possible ways that they could have countered what blind madara had to throw at them it's hilarious, but when he got his one eye, he gained so much power that whatever they had that could have countered him before would not have worked.
Hashi didn't use it against Edo madara because his powers were gimped as an edo as stated in the manga more than once. He also possibly couldn't use it because he used up so much senjutsu earlier in order to restrain the juubi.
When are you talking about for the obito thing? He fought Naruto and Sasuke when the shinjuu is out of him, he can't make a juubidama with the tree anymore.
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The author showed how the barrier works: by deforming and then sending the blast up high due to its elasticity. That doesn't mean 'it only works against explosions', it works the same way against anything, it's just that obito's chakra arms are able to apply pressure on a smaller point greater than that in which the juubidama can which is why it bursts.
Sasuke's susanoo is much more durable than the juubi's body since its durability is equal to NAruto's RSM avatar, an avatar which can withstand multiple hits from PS swords that can cut through multimountain range chibaku tensei while the juubi's tails get severed by BM Naruto's chakra bird.
If Sasuke's susanoo and Naruto's RSM avatar are not even close to the juubi's durability, then why in the world would Naruto and Sasuke be on the level of the Juubi's jinchuriki? Their avatars are powered by their chakra both quality and quantity, their avatars are the same thing, so why would the avatars be not on the same level when they are?
Why does it even matter if it's ninjutus, Naruto's not even in his RSM form when he does that. You want to talk about not using ninjutsu? Juubito easily destroys hashirama's myojinmon gates without using any ninjutsu. These are the same gates mind you that withstood the force of the juubi's juubidama and were powerful enough to restrain the beast.
The databook calls Kaguya's attack a ninjutsu, and it's also states that when coupled with her byakugan, it can become the most powerful attack.
So how is anything that I'm claiming absurd?
KidGamer65
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Completely different case considering he converts a Gudo Dama into a Bijuu Dama and then throws it. And he can fire them if he wants but a large enough Shinra Tensei displaces them.
Rinnegan? Not sure why you mentioned that when this is irrelevant nor did anyone ever mention Rinnegan. Naruto's mode said he could understand chakra, but that has literally nothing to do with Onmyoton. If Onmyoton came with the Gudo Dama Obito wouldn't need control to use Onmyoton on the Gudo Dama. He protected himself from Tobirama's explosions because Tobirama's explosions weren't strong enough to crack his Gudo Dama.
And Onmyoton is obviously the reason Obito tanked the Juubidama as Naruto can crack it with a regular Bijuu Dama. Not sure what you are talking about with the bold either but that wasn't even hinted at in the Manga.
It does matter. Caving it in by pulling from inside is completely different from expanding it outward and breaking it. That alone ends your comparison.
1. How is this relevant to our debate?
2. Prove the bold. I'm curious.
Um. Yeah but how does this matter? I never said that RSM BD=regular BD. You haven't even addressed anything stated in this portion of my argument and that is that Juubidama obliterates Naruto and his Susanoo.
They both matter depending on the comparison being made. In this comparison it does matter because Weak+Strong doesn't equal strong when talking about mixing chakra. Mix two types of paint and the one that shows the most isn't the one that will only show. Same thing here.
Except it is based on literally nothing and I'm waiting for you to actually back up your claims with evidence. I can't say that you've even given weak evidence because you haven't.
-You say that techs through clones is based on skill. Prove it. The bold isn't an argument when you can't even prove that the bold has jack shit to do with skill w/ clones in the first place.
Which is still irrelevant to the skill of clone usage and relevant to the inability to split his attention too much while gathering Nature Energy hence the obvious ass analogy that flew over your head. You can't look left and right at the same time.
Then we have him saying "Focusing Sage chakra isn't easy".
Mokuryu didn't suck his Avatar dry. Nice try though. A large portion of it was destabilized and then Naruto Shunshin'd out before it was swallowed up completely. The whole destroyed by Juubito thing also doesn't matter because all the chakra used to enter BM isn't used for the Avatar. Chakra is drained as time goes on.
I'll wait for you to prove it then. I'll also wait for you to prove this "clones using techs has to do with skill and not chakra amount" nonsense.
I've already addressed this.
2) NAruto attacked madara with youton rasenshuriken, so nope he was attacked by big jutsu.
Except the reason blatantly shown in the Manga. :lol
-Got his ass whooped.
-Got his eye.
-Immediately used CT.
-Rinnegan can't access full power without both eyes.
-You are actually arguing he uses the strongest Rinnegan technique with a single eye. :lol
Him not using it pretty much proves nothing since it's already a fact that he has it and it's a fact that it absorbs chakra. So unless you are going to try and make the argument that magic makes Naruto and Sasuke's basic Ninjutsu inabsorbable then you can stop right now.
Yup. I'll wait for you to prove that she bothered to learn them or that her eye came with them even though they were only created after Hagoromo's time and not before. Having Madara's body is irrelevant because when she took him over it became her body and all access to his abilities are lost.
Lol don't be dumb. I was talking about full powered Madara and I meant to say "Was". Not wasn't.
What shitty logic. So out of two options he chooses the one that guarantees he gets his ass whooped low difficulty because...neither would work? :lol Let's use common sense here and realize that if Madara is going to fight his best option would be to do whatever gives him the greater chance of success, not what grants him zero chance of success regardless of whether or not he actually wins in the end.
Cut this "he didn't so it wouldn't work" logic out. Madara had the option of using Mokuton to fight the Bijuu yet he charged in with his fists. According to you that means charging in with his fists was a better option. :lol Kaguya had the option to absorb Kakashi's Raikiri yet somehow it cut her.
Yeah, it was stated that were revived at virtually full power, and Hashirama is stationary when he fights. Not enough Senjutsu is a petty excuse when he can simply gather more if he needs to call on it.
He didn't use the Shinju to make BD in the first place. :lol So he had the option to use BD anytime during their little 2 on 1 fight yet he didn't.
KidGamer65
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-Barrier expands.
-Barrier contracts and pushes the blow outside.
Can the barrier expand when Obito is ripping it by causing it to collapse on itself from the inside? No.
Can the barrier push a physical strike outside of the top like an explosion's energy? No.
Then you'd have to prove that the chakra bird made by the SHINOBI ALLIANCE is weaker, because Naruto's Avatar being damaged by a BD that creates an explosion nowhere near the level of the Juubi's means that the Juubi's rapes it and I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you repeating the same nonsensical argumentation. Please stop dancing around this. Please stop claiming that Naruto's Bijuu Dama is stronger than the Quad Juubidama due to potency when in reality it isn't. Bijuu Dama is the same type of attack. The explosion size is what tells you which BD is stronger when it comes to quality and Naruto's BD is far inferior as shown by the Manga. Please don't argue that because the explosion was colored different when it clashed with CHIDORI OF ALL THINGS that it's far more potent, because it isn't and that isn't even supported by anything reminiscent of a Manga fact.
Not a question that I need to answer nor is it a question that'd prove your point no matter the answer. Though considering the Juubi's Jinchuuriki doesn't even have a defense anywhere near the Juubi's body in terms of defensive power this question doesn't even matter. Naruto can match a JJ in physical strength, speed, durability and firepower for the most part. The only thing he can't match is Juubidama and the NE changes that. The only thing Juubito has over him is raw firepower. Everything else is inferior to Naruto's and that's why he's on par with a JJ.
It matters because the gap between Ninjutsu and physical power is ridiculous for Naruto so talking about how he's not in RSM doesn't make up for that difference. Juubito used chakra arms, the physical power of the Juubi but focused, to obliterate Hashirama's gates.
The fact you can type Naruto's physical strikes>>Quad Juubidama and then ask me how it's absurd makes me want to not even bother replying. But I will. In fact, this question can be answered by two scans and nothing more.
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vs.
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Gee. I wonder what's stronger.
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How does him throwing them = different case? He throws them, they explode a hundred kilometers above him, how does he get them back if he has no control over them?
I've already answered the bolded already, he fires another volley.
There you go again with your misuse of the english language. Does understanding chakra LITERALLY have nothing to do with onmyouton?
Why is onmyouton the reason obito tanked the juubidama? The black spheres eat through anything they touch if it's not senjutsu because of onmyouton right? What happens when they don't have onmyouton? Do they all of a sudden lose the ability to do that to anything? Obviously not since he cuts through Sarutobi and his shuriken like butter, and it protects him from tobirama's attack without problems. So why wouldn't that be the mechanism in which it protects him from the juubidama?
Um, no it doesn't. You told me a difference: that one caved it in, and one expanded it. You DID NOT tell me why it mattered. So nope, explain why it matters, else it's the same as me claiming that I'm stronger than The Rock because I never acted in a movie.
Relevance to the debate: FRS gets powered up X amount by RSM, therefore Bijuudama should also get powered up by X amount by RSM since the only thing that's changing is the chakra being used for both. Therefore if FRS gets powered up by X amount, and bijuudama should as well, yet the explosion we see at VoTe differes, then the bijuudama's explosion is simply an outlier or explained away by its different appearance.
I can't literally 'prove' anything about this manga, as there's always some kind of argument that can be generated for even the most granted claims about the manga.
However, my ARGUMENT for the bolded would be simple:
1) Rasenshuriken > 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans based on the damage it did to kurama.
Each chou oodama rasengan is capable of 'hollowing out a mountain', therefore since the rasenshuriken's explosion isn't big enough to hollow out a mountain, it has to have at least that power contained in a smaller AoE in order for it to do more damage to kurama.
2) The craters it makes. FRS (even the half-completed one) creates a perfect sphereical crater, the same shape as its explosion. Normal explosions don't have the power to generate a crater as deep as the actual explosion, even when they occur below ground:
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Plus, there are plenty of instances where characters without super durability get caught in an explosion and come out alive, while they would have been disintegrated had they been caught in the rasenshuriken's explosion. An example is beginning of part 2 sakura eating a paper bomb or Sasuke blocking C2 with his wing, there's lots of em.
When we actually see FRS's power when it's not compressed, its explosion takes up almost half the chibaku tensei crater.
I think I made it quite clear. Rasenshuriken's power gets amplified so much that it goes from 30 meter explosion to 10+ kilometer explosion. Nothing has changed other than the RSM chakra being substituted for the normal bijuu chakra, logically the bijuudama should get the same power increase. We don't see that because the explosion at VoTe isn't a normal one, it's compressed.
Go back and reread what we are actually discussing. You were making the claim that chakra quantity is what makes Juubidara's chakra construct > Kakashi's even if both are using the same chakra. Now you are arguing something else since you're trying to make the claim that kakashi's is weaker because he mixes his own chakra into it. Which claim are you making now?
Argument: abilities clones can use are based on the skill of the clone user.
Evidence: Naruto can only use a limited amount of clones on the battlefield while some of his clones gather natural energy because gathering natural energy requires immense chakra manipulation ability and skill. During his wind training's fuuton rasengan stage, Naruto could only manage 200 clones at a time, not because of his chakra reserves (because he had them out for hours) but because of his ability with the clones didn't allow him to do that.
There you go, that's my argument and that's what it's based on. If you want to argue against that, then feel free to do so.
Yeah, so 'prove it' doesn't mean anything because no one can literally 'prove' anything about this manga. There's always a counterargument that can be made, no matter how irrational it may seem to you or me. I've given you my argument, asking for MORE evidence doesn't mean anything in regards to how true my argument is, what you need to do is go and see how the counterargument fairs against my argument. If you believe my argument to be false, what evidence do you have that debunks my own claims?
....wait, are you saying that the original naruto was the one expending the mental energy to balance the right amount of natural energy with his own while he was fighting instead of his clones? That makes even less sense than your original assertion. That's like saying that the clones don't use their own jutsu, it's the real naruto who uses the jutsu through the clones. I don't think you believe that, and if you don't then your argument isn't true since the effort to focus the sennin chakra wouldn't be on the original, it would be on the clones. Which obviously is why the mental fatigue goes to the original only after the clones poof: because the original isn't experiencing it. So nope again.
Um... this is how much of the avatar is left when mokuryu disappears:
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The bolded is just laughable, you've just sealed your own grave! If you're now saying a significant portion of the chakra naruto uses in order to use the avatar is drained as time goes on, then in no way shape or form can you claim that BM Naruto is unable to use 2 avatars since mokuryu almost completely drains his avatar, yet he uses it for chapters after as well as lots of other big jutsu, but he's also used 2 kyuubi avatars against juubito and maintained it for a while as well. So you'd have to concede that naruto would be able to use 2 avatars, just with half the time and with half the total amount of chakra output.
Yep, the old 'place an impossible burden of proof on the opposition, yet subject yourself to no such standard' trick. I don't have to 'prove' anything, all I have to do is show that my argument is more plausible than the alternative.
What in the world are you talking about? The only reason he used CT was to stall because he had gained both eyes and was getting prepared to use MT. Before that, he wasn't trying to stall, he was trying to actually fight naruto and sasuke which is why he doesn't use that. Madara has shown preta path even without eyes, even obito implied that he was capable of all the rinnegan techniques with just one of madara's eyes, and here you're claiming that madara as a juubi jin and his original eyes isn't capable of using shinra tensei?
Um, there are tons of things in this manga that are not explained, for one, it could just be that naruto and sasuke's jutsu are just too powerful, or hit him too quickly for him to absorb them. So his absorption ability is a non-factor in the fight. The same with his deva abilities, he had them, didn't use them which means the same thing or worse happens even if he uses them.
been over this whole 'try to meet my bias standard of what it means to prove something while I don't subject my own argumets to the same criticism' already.
Why isn't the weaker version of madara >> Sasuke as well?
Um...is this your first time reading the manga? That's what kishimoto does all the time, he makes characters make dumb decisions because of plot. Why didn't the bijuu just blast madara instead of using non-lethal physical hits? Why did naruto opt to blast mokuryu instead of wrestling with it, why didn't sasuke use any ninjutsu to stop
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? Why did madara even charge in in the first place? That has happened tons of times in the manga to tons of characters, it doesn't mean the outcome of the fight changes if they had done something differently. If Kishi had written it so that madara did do in the reader's eyes the most logical thing, he'd have made the bijuu do the most logical thing as well, or give them some kind of answer to madara's stuff if they didn't have it and the results would have been the same. No, according to me, the outcome would have been the same. If kishi writes madara charging in with his fists, he also writes the bijuu not opting to do non-lethal taijutsu to counter, the results end up the same. The chapter was there to showcase the bijuu using combo moves and stuff, it wouldn't have happened if he allowed madara to use justsu that would require the bijuu do what they've always done.
Madara even says that the brothers can't bring out their full strength:
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which means since the time madara absorbed his chakra till then, he still hadn't regened what was taken from him. so no, he wasn't at full power and didn't have his full reserves.He created the juubi tree, it's possible he can't do that without the shinjuu outside of himself.
Yeah, juubito probably did have that option, it doesn't change anything due to the factors that made it a bad decision.
Yeah, so the barrier does expand its surface area when obito rips it, the surface area of the barrier just expands inward. THe barrier pushes whatever energy it gets hit with back like an elastic collision, if juubito's chakra arms were less powerful than the juubidama, it wouldn't have been able to pull the barrier to the extent in which it breaks, it would be like the bijuudama: deform the barrier to an extent, but the barrier doesn't break.
You'd have to prove that the chakra bird is stronger, and you'd have to believe that BM Naruto can do that with his own chakra since the alliance is being powered by his own chakra and he's more than capable of making as many clones as there are alliance members with his own chakra.
You'd also have to believe that for some inexplicable reason, naruto's bijuudama doesn't receive anywhere near the powerup that naruto's rasengan/rasenshuriken receives from using RSM.
The explosion size is only what tells you which is stronger if the explosions are comparable.
If you can't answer that question, then it just proves that your current manga view has a big hole in it.
The juubi's jinchuriki obviously does have a defense that's at least as great as the juubi's body... it's called the juubi avatar. Not only that, but juubito has shown that he can casually put up a defense that can withstand 4 giant juubidamas going off at once.
How does sasuke and naruto's modes competing at all against juubito's make any sense when their avatars can't even compare? The avatars get their power from the modes they are using, if narutos and sasuke's avatars are far inferior to juubito's then it logically follows that their modes are also far inferior to juubito's as well.
Is that gap really ridiculous for Naruto? If we take pre-rikudou naruto as an example, is there really such a huge gap between BSM Naruto's chakra arm attacks and base naruto's rasenshuriken?
Juubito didn't use any chakra arms to obliterate Hashirama's gates, those only manifested after the gates were obliterated. Plus, hashirama's gates withstood the juubidama, that tells you right there how powerful those chakra arms are.
Yep already refuted all of this, which shows that you don't have any reason to call that absurd at all. In fact, the mere point that you've decided to ommit the databook claiming that kaguya's chakra punch attack is the most powerful offensive attack shows how bad your own stance actually is.
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