jiraiya vs akatsuki

[ToshiZO]

I read NF's translation thread on heavily debated statements and the translators claim the whole conversation was about Jiraiya, not the Kyuubi. Ken Masters point on Kisame saying "him" instead of "it" further reinforces this claim.

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The contradiction is that Itachi was then portrayed to be above Jiraiya when Kisame asked "why is a retreat necessary even for you" but that just means they first over estimated Jiraiya due to his hype.

That is not a contradiction. That actually only further backs the conversation was about Jiraiya, as what Kisame said to Itachi after the clash, was consistent with what he said in conversation on top of the hill.

Kisame before the clash: "Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about me"

Then during the scuffle, Kisame was shitting his pants while Itachi was in control. [

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Kisame after the clash: "Why did we have to retreat with your power?"

Which was basically him saying, "I couldn't have done anything but why did we retreat when you could take him on?" That is almost exactly what Kisame said on top of the hill before meeting Jiraiya.

This was consistent before, during, and after their confrontation. The notion that Itachi can take him on but Kisame can't. That's why I was confused every time that Kisame quote was being presented as it only further backed the talk being on Jman. From start to finish Itachi was always portrayed to take on Jiraiya and Kisame being well below him.

It's crazy how something so clear cut and straight forward can be turned into some sort of cluster****. It's no wonder then that less straightforward yet still obvious panels are always being butchered.

 

[Icelerate]

That is not a contradiction. That actually only further backs the conversation was about Jiraiya, as what Kisame said to Itachi after the clash, was consistent with what he said in conversation on top of the hill.

Kisame before the clash: "Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about me"

Then during the scuffle, Kisame was shitting his pants while Itachi was in control. [

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]

Kisame after the clash: "Why did we have to retreat with your power?"

Which was basically him saying, "I couldn't have done anything but why did we retreat when you could take him on?" That is almost exactly what Kisame said on top of the hill before meeting Jiraiya.

This was consistent before, during, and after their confrontation. The notion that Itachi can take him on but Kisame can't. That's why I was confused every time that Kisame quote was being presented as it only further backed the talk being on Jman. From start to finish Itachi was always portrayed to take on Jiraiya and Kisame being well below him.

It's crazy how something so clear cut and straight forward can be turned into some sort of cluster****. It's no wonder then that less straightforward yet still obvious panels are always being butchered.

First Itachi claims he can only stalemate with Jiraiya but in the second statement, Kisame is confident that Itachi's power is strong enough to overcome Jiraiya so that's the contradiction.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Is there even one translation that emphasizes that Kyuubi was referred to as "him". It was kind of random to bring up the Kyuubi when the likelihood of fighting the Kyuubi was approximately zero. Also bijuu are not to be killed so Itachi saying we'd both die makes no sense if he was talking about Naruto or the Kyuubi as they were there to capture them. If you say the battle would be too hard to capture Naruto/Kyuubi, that makes no sense because sealing/capturing a bijuu/jinchuriki, especially with Itachi's arsenal, is much easier than killing them.

I agree that Kisame suddenly changing his mind after seeing one technique doesn't make much sense but neither makes much sense.

Konoha had just been attacked by a group that included Gaara whose bijuu broke out of him and fought, which I'm sure Itachi and Kisame were aware of. You would have to speculate on how much info they have on Naruto to know the risk of Kurama breaking out. If their knowledge on him is high then they'd be aware that Naruto had started to lose control against Haku, which would raise concerns for them.

And yes, in the very first page of the very first chapter, the 9 tails is referred to as he:

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Bijuus weren't even mentioned(or the fact that there were 9) in part 1. Kurama and Gaara's monster whose name I forget were just considered monsters more or less. The whole "bijuus can't die" thing hadn't been explored(that doesn't come until we get in to part 2 of the manga), so I don't think that had even crossed Kishi's mind.

 

[ToshiZO]

First Itachi claims he can only stalemate with Jiraiya but in the second statement, Kisame is confident that Itachi's power is strong enough to overcome Jiraiya so that's the contradiction.

That's Itachi saying that. You presented a statement Kisame said before and after as a contradiction, but Kisame not once contradicted himself.

Both his statements implied Itachi being able to take him on, and himself not so much. The stalemate/backup talk is your typical Kishi extra juice to spoon feed to readers that he is hyping up a character.

 

[Icelerate]

Konoha had just been attacked by a group that included Gaara whose bijuu broke out of him and fought, which I'm sure Itachi and Kisame were aware of. You would have to speculate on how much info they have on Naruto to know the risk of Kurama breaking out. If their knowledge on him is high then they'd be aware that Naruto had started to lose control against Haku, which would raise concerns for them.

Okay.

And yes, in the very first page of the very first chapter, the 9 tails is referred to as he:

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That's the narrator. Akatsuki members and most good guys think bijuus are tools of war, not beings.

Bijuus weren't even mentioned(or the fact that there were 9) in part 1. Kurama and Gaara's monster whose name I forget were just considered monsters more or less. The whole "bijuus can't die" thing hadn't been explored(that doesn't come until we get in to part 2 of the manga), so I don't think that had even crossed Kishi's mind.

Their job was still to capture the jinchuriki/bijuu. Only a reference to killing was made in the first half of the page which leads me to think that they were talking about Jiraiya even before mentioning him being the babysitter. Probably a translation error by Viz. The 3rd Raikage in the Viz says "

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". Using logic, we can deduce he either meant wind style ninjas should attack him or they should use earth style ninjas to defend against his advance. By using fan made translation and the context in the scan, we can deduce he meant earth style ninjas

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.

 

[Ken Masters]

I don't know why such a simple matter is being made complicated? Let's get some things into perspective

1. Kisame has taken out 4-tails.
2. Kisame was solo tasked to take out 8-tails who Obito praised as a perfect jinchuriki who had what it takes.
3. Akatsuki were taking out Adult-Jounin level jinchuriki.

With all above facts are we to believe that Kisame was shit scared of a genin Jinchuriki who didn't even have a history of Kyuubi outbreak ever? He even wondered if Naruto really did have Kyuubi (given how weak Naruto was at that time)

Spoiler

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Heck Kisame even threatened to chop off off Naruto's leg if he tried to run

Spoiler

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Furthermore all of the things Itachi said had to be taken with a grain of salt because back then even though on-paper he was capturing Naruto his real motive was to show up in the village and send a message to Danzou.

So Itachi saying "If we had more people the outcome would be the same" etc may as well be a strategy to hype Jiraya and thus the Leaf in order to make it seem still powerful (given the recent loss of Hiruzen) so that Akatsuki would keep it's distance from leaf. Don't forget that Obito was waiting for Itachi to die before making a move against Konoha.

 

[Zexion~]

All this arguing just reinforces the fact that portrayal should not be the stand-alone argument in VS threads....ever.

 

[EliteKakashi]

That's the narrator. Akatsuki members and most good guys think bijuus are tools of war, not beings.

It being the narrator makes the statement that much better. He's not a character that could have wrong information. He's basically Kishimoto explaining the origin of this story. And in doing so, referred to Kurama as he. But if that's not good enough, when Naruto finds out his real name, he calls him a he as well:

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Their job was still to capture the jinchuriki/bijuu. Only a reference to killing was made in the first half of the page which leads me to think that they were talking about Jiraiya even before mentioning him being the babysitter. Probably a translation error by Viz. The 3rd Raikage in the Viz says "

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". Using logic, we can deduce he either meant wind style ninjas should attack him or they should use earth style ninjas to defend against his advance. By using fan made translation and the context in the scan, we can deduce he meant earth style ninjas

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.

Their job was to just capture the beast. No reference is made in part 1 as to whether or not killing him matters(we are lead to believe by the very first page on the manga that killing him would be extremely difficult though, as it states shinobi from all clans+the 4th hokage attempted to fight it, but only succeeded by sealing it. This makes the "not even sure backup would matter" statement make more sense. Itachi is confident he can fight Jiraiya and beat him, but if he had backup it wouldn't improve his chances any? wut?

Someone else(Forbidden I think) even shows the panels where Itachi and Kisame are alarmed when Naruto begins to release the nine tails chakra, reinforcing that the nine tails is what they were scared of fighting.

I don't feel like searching for his post so here's the panel:

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Yes translation errors happen, but there's no reason to assume there's any translation error here.

And sorry for this reply taking forever, my internet is being a ***** and a half...already had to retype this post 4 times.

 

[TheEvilOne]

They were alarmed for a split second, but who wouldn't be honestly? Ninjas are alarmed all the time during fights. Madara was alarmed when Tsunade activated the Byakugou. Does that mean he was scared of her? Not at all. He fodderized her, just like Kisame rendered Naruto useless by draining his chakra.

All this arguing just reinforces the fact that portrayal should not be the stand-alone argument in VS threads....ever.

True, however I don't think anyone here believes Jiraiya can beat Itachi. But still, they were talking about him. Kishi wanted to hype Jiraiya, as he did with Orochimaru before and later with Tsunade. He wanted us to know they are feared and respected all over the shinobi world.

 

[Zexion~]

They were alarmed for a split second, but who wouldn't be honestly? Ninjas are alarmed all the time during fights. Madara was alarmed when Tsunade activated the Byakugou. Does that mean he was scared of her? Not at all. He fodderized her, just like Kisame rendered Naruto useless by draining his chakra.



True, however I don't think anyone here believes Jiraiya can beat Itachi. But still, they were talking about him. Kishi wanted to hype Jiraiya, as he did with Orochimaru before and later with Tsunade. He wanted us to know they are feared and respected all over the shinobi world.

Yes but that is ALL he did with the Sannin their feats are terrible lol he wanted them to be the past generation that the current one had already surpassed.

 

[EliteKakashi]

They were alarmed for a split second, but who wouldn't be honestly? Ninjas are alarmed all the time during fights. Madara was alarmed when Tsunade activated the Byakugou. Does that mean he was scared of her? Not at all. He fodderized her, just like Kisame rendered Naruto useless by draining his chakra.

That is true, but they weren't alerted/surprised/scared/alarmed by Jiraiya. An iffy argument on it's own, but piled on to everything else it adds up even more.

Saying Kishi retconned a statement just 15 chapters(or whatever it was) later makes no sense, especially not in part 1 where the writing was 100x better than it was in part 2. He was concerned about dying(and it not mattering who else he had with him) against the fighter they talk about first(whether you believe that to be Kurama or Jiraiya), then 2 panels later says "Every hero has his weakness"(when confirmed that he's talking about Jiraiya, as Kisame mentions him directly), then Kisame later goes on to say Itachi could have beaten Jiraiya(not stalemated him, beaten him), which Itachi doesn't disagree with at all. Just claims he was tired and in no rush to kill him.

When putting it in to the context that we know the entire village fought against Kurama and couldn't beat him(4th Hokage had to seal him, and at this point in the story we're lead to believe that if you're a Hokage, you're tiers above almost everyone else, even in Hiruzen's fight vs Orochimaru it's noted Hiruzen isn't going all out and is impacted by his age), we can better understand the "backup won't matter" aspect, because the only kind of ninja that can stand up to Kurama are those on a legendary tier. And of course Itachi was I think inarguably made out to be the strongest character in part 1(Jiraiya, Hiruzen and Orochimaru the only guys who have any other kind of argument, based off hype), unless you're dead set in believing this hype about Jiraiya.

I personally can't see how it makes any sense to believe that they're referring to Jiraiya. The sentence structures used make no sense if that's the case, later statements make no sense if that's the case, the "backup doesn't matter" statement is backed up by the very first chapter, etc, etc.

 

[Icelerate]

All this arguing just reinforces the fact that portrayal should not be the stand-alone argument in VS threads....ever.

I agree that hype in and of itself should not be used because it is by definition over exaggeration. Portrayal is a different story but I agree it shouldn't be a standalone argument.

 

[Zexion~]

I agree that hype in and of itself should not be used because it is by definition over exaggeration. Portrayal is a different story but I agree it shouldn't be a standalone argument.

Pretty much yeah, and argue portrayal in a discussion thread lol VS is for feats of battle.

 

[ToshiZO]

All this arguing just reinforces the fact that portrayal should not be the stand-alone argument in VS threads....ever.

Nah when a character outright admits he gets destroyed by another character, it is a stand alone argument, and the end of any argument at that. This isn't simple portrayal, it's a direct comparison in canon.

Going against that is an attempt to rewrite the canon.

And all this arguing for this topic only shows a lack of comprehension, nothing else.

 

[EliteKakashi]

The biggest issue of all with figuring all of this out is as soon as Kishi switched to part 2, power scaling went through the roof. Itachi, Jiraiya, Hiruzen and Orochimaru were no longer special. Really strong characters, but there were tons(exaggeration but you get the point) on that relative level. Being kage level meant nothing. Konoha at one point held 5 characters at that level(Tsunade, Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, Jiraiya), where as in part 1 having that kind of power was deemed special.

Hell, Gamabunta stalemated a tailed beast in part 1 for ****s sake(but again important to keep in context the 1 tail wasn't known as a bijuu/being some almighty powerful beast that could level mountains with a bijuu bomb, it was just a monster inside of Gaara).

Another example, and people may forget this as well but Kisame in part 1 was supposed to be roughly around Kakashi's level(noted in the panel in the spoiler below this paragraph). In part 2 he's all of the sudden some beast that can single handedly fight bijuu, where as part 1 Kakashi would be fodderized by a bijuu.

Spoiler

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Our minds are tainted by part 2 explanations and the like that we forget a lot of what happened in part 2 wasn't even in consideration in part 1. Bijuu weren't an actual thing, power scaling wasn't retarded, this manga wasn't a DBZ wanna-be, etc.

God I love and miss how incredible Part 1 was. Especially when you compare it to part 2.

 

[ToshiZO]

Another example, and people may forget this as well but Kisame in part 1 was supposed to be roughly around Kakashi's level(noted in the panel in the spoiler below this paragraph). In part 2 he's all of the sudden some beast that can single handedly fight bijuu, where as part 1 Kakashi would be fodderized by a bijuu.

Bijuu? You mean Jinchuuriki? That never changed, Kisame is a matchup nightmare for Jinchuuriki, always was.

If we're talking portrayal. He got his ass whooped throughout the manga by Kakashi's equal or inferior in Gai, from a portrayal standpoint he was never what people are trying to make him out to be.

There was and always has been a clear cut off from guys like Kakashi and Gai to guys like Jiraiya, Itachi, Orochimaru throughout the manga. Kisame was never in the latter category.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Bijuu? You mean Jinchuuriki? That never changed, Kisame is a matchup nightmare for Jinchuuriki, always was.

If we're talking portrayal. He got his ass whooped throughout the manga by Kakashi's equal or inferior in Gai, from a portrayal standpoint he was never what people are trying to make him out to be.

There was and always has been a clear cut off from guys like Kakashi and Gai to guys like Jiraiya, Itachi, Orochimaru throughout the manga. Kisame was never in the latter category.

He got his ass whipped by Gai because he underestimated him and had no clue about his abilities. When his 30% clone fought him, Gai used the 6th gate and just punched him to death. Kisame took that in to note, came at him with a jutsu that Asa Kujaku could do nothing against, then Gai opened the 7th and hit him with a taijutsu attack that Kisame had never heard of or seen anything similar to(and did look like some kind of ninjutsu technique).

Gai in the 7th gate could defeat the vast majority of the Narutoverse regardless though. He's insanely OP in that gate, and you need some kind of legendary defense or regenerative abilities to stand much of a chance in fighting him.

Kakashi and Gai reached the level of the sannin, if not surpassing them(edo tensei for Orochimaru makes that statement iffy but restricting edo tensei and it's true) in the war arc. And Gai in 8th Gate is nearly god tier, completely out of their league. Kakashi's kamui and absurd chakra boost in the war arc boosted him to or past the level of the sannin as well.

But my point is part 1 Kakashi gets destroyed by part 2 Kisame. Power scaling in part 2 is retarded. Kishi just pulled the same idiotic bullshit his idol Toriyama did when Toriyama made power levels absolutely retarded in Z(Z was fine up through the Frieza saga, though still a bit ridiculous, but everything past that is complete garbage, especially the Buu saga..good lord what a pile of shit that was) compared to DB and make the manga entirely about getting stronger and not about having a coherent, interesting story.

Hiruzen god of shinobi? Naw fam, we got people who can obliterate entire mountain ranges with a swing of a sword. Itachi and Jiraiya scary opponents? Naw fam, we've got guys out here literally using instant transmission and having all 9 bijuus combined and inside their body.

That's going way off topic though, but any time I get on the topic of how shitty part 2 is I find it hard to stop.

 

[Zexion~]

Nah when a character outright admits he gets destroyed by another character, it is a stand alone argument, and the end of any argument at that. This isn't simple portrayal, it's a direct comparison in canon.

Going against that is an attempt to rewrite the canon.

And all this arguing for this topic only shows a lack of comprehension, nothing else.

Uh no lol not unless his actions also convey what he's sayong (suigetsu) Deidara coyly stating Sasori is stronger than him means nothing, Pain stating he would have lost to Jiraiya had he known his secret out of respect to his former master means nothing.

TAKING ALL THESE STATEMENTS ITACHI MADE TO REDUCE CONFLICT IN THE VILLAGE HE LOVED MEANS NOTHING BECAUSE THERE ALWAYS IS A MOTIVE FOR WHAT THEY ARE SAYING

Kisame> Sannin lol portrayal wise he was Obito/Madara's most loyal Akatsuki member lol

 

[ToshiZO]

He got his ass whipped by Gai because he underestimated him and had no clue about his abilities. When his 30% clone fought him, Gai used the 6th gate and just punched him to death. Kisame took that in to note, came at him with a jutsu that Asa Kujaku could do nothing against, then Gai opened the 7th and hit him with a taijutsu attack that Kisame had never heard of or seen anything similar to(and did look like some kind of ninjutsu technique).

Gai in the 7th gate could defeat the vast majority of the Narutoverse regardless though. He's insanely OP in that gate, and you need some kind of legendary defense or regenerative abilities to stand much of a chance in fighting him.

Kakashi and Gai reached the level of the sannin, if not surpassing them(edo tensei for Orochimaru makes that statement iffy but restricting edo tensei and it's true) in the war arc. And Gai in 8th Gate is nearly god tier, completely out of their league. Kakashi's kamui and absurd chakra boost in the war arc boosted him to or past the level of the sannin as well.

But my point is part 1 Kakashi gets destroyed by part 2 Kisame. Power scaling in part 2 is retarded. Kishi just pulled the same idiotic bullshit his idol Toriyama did when Toriyama made power levels absolutely retarded in Z(Z was fine up through the Frieza saga, though still a bit ridiculous, but everything past that is complete garbage, especially the Buu saga..good lord what a pile of shit that was) compared to DB and make the manga entirely about getting stronger and not about having a coherent, interesting story.

Hiruzen god of shinobi? Naw fam, we got people who can obliterate entire mountain ranges with a swing of a sword. Itachi and Jiraiya scary opponents? Naw fam, we've got guys out here literally using instant transmission and having all 9 bijuus combined and inside their body.

That's going way off topic though, but any time I get on the topic of how shitty part 2 is I find it hard to stop.

I don't disagree with that. I was just talking about where things are portrayed.

Every character that remained alive close enough to the war arc got that buff. It only went proportionally though. Kisame never grew out of Kakashi's league, because the power creep affected Kakashi as well.

You can see at the end of the Pain fight Kishi still tried to portray Jiraiya above all these other cats still.

 

[Zexion~]

I don't disagree with that. I was just talking about where things are portrayed.

Every character that remained alive close enough to the war arc got that buff. It only went proportionally though. Kisame never grew out of Kakashi's league, because the power creep affected Kakashi as well.

You can see at the end of the Pain fight Kishi still tried to portray Jiraiya above all these other cats still.

Out of respect only because "all the other cats"

Solo the Paths Jiraiya could barely overcome lol