Uh no lol not unless his actions also convey what he's sayong (suigetsu) Deidara coyly stating Sasori is stronger than him means nothing, Pain stating he would have lost to Jiraiya had he known his secret out of respect to his former master means nothing.
No, Kisame called Jiraiya out of his league. Then his actions conveyed what he was saying when he was shitting his pants when Jiraiya activated his jutsu.
That's not even relatively debatable. Those other scenes are left open for interpretation, Kisame defers to Itachi and places Jiraiya on the same level as Itachi. It's consistent behaviour throughout the manga, backed by direct statements.
I read NF's translation thread on heavily debated statements and the translators claim the whole conversation was about Jiraiya, not the Kyuubi. Ken Masters point on Kisame saying "him" instead of "it" further reinforces this claim.
The contradiction is that Itachi was then portrayed to be above Jiraiya when Kisame asked "why is a retreat necessary even for you" but that just means they first over estimated Jiraiya due to his hype.
The biggest issue of all with figuring all of this out is as soon as Kishi switched to part 2, power scaling went through the roof. Itachi, Jiraiya, Hiruzen and Orochimaru were no longer special. Really strong characters, but there were tons(exaggeration but you get the point) on that relative level. Being kage level meant nothing. Konoha at one point held 5 characters at that level(Tsunade, Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, Jiraiya), where as in part 1 having that kind of power was deemed special.
Hell, Gamabunta stalemated a tailed beast in part 1 for ****s sake(but again important to keep in context the 1 tail wasn't known as a bijuu/being some almighty powerful beast that could level mountains with a bijuu bomb, it was just a monster inside of Gaara).
Another example, and people may forget this as well but Kisame in part 1 was supposed to be roughly around Kakashi's level(noted in the panel in the spoiler below this paragraph). In part 2 he's all of the sudden some beast that can single handedly fight bijuu, where as part 1 Kakashi would be fodderized by a bijuu.
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Our minds are tainted by part 2 explanations and the like that we forget a lot of what happened in part 2 wasn't even in consideration in part 1. Bijuu weren't an actual thing, power scaling wasn't retarded, this manga wasn't a DBZ wanna-be, etc.
God I love and miss how incredible Part 1 was. Especially when you compare it to part 2.
Too many facts here. People legit don't understand how inconsistent Part 1 is with Part 2.
Kisame for example, is shown to be around equal terms with Asuma in CQC back in part 1. Part 2 comes along, and Kisame is out-maneuvering Killer Bee, while Edo Asuma couldn't even best his students. There's a plethora of other cases, but people will continue to be
Learn how to read and comprehend, and that goes for the rest of you that horribly misconstrue the manga.
Itachi: "So if we're sealing him away last, then might as well hunt him last".
Itachi is directly referring to "him" as the one who is getting sealed away. The Biju is what gets sealed away, not the Jinchuuriki. Itachi then goes on to say "If we take the Nine Tails Jinchuuriki right now, it'll onle rile konoha up".
Itachi is referring to Kurama as "him", and Naruto as "Nine Tails Jinchuuriki".
The first "him" is referring to Kurama, the second is referring to Naruto. Nevermind, the panel below shows Itachi referencing Naruto through the context Jinchuuriki; so Itachi actually was referring to him in both references to Kurama.
No, Kisame called Jiraiya out of his league. Then his actions conveyed what he was saying when he was shitting his pants when Jiraiya activated his jutsu.
That's not even relatively debatable. Those other scenes are left open for interpretation, Kisame defers to Itachi and places Jiraiya on the same level as Itachi. It's consistent behaviour throughout the manga, backed by direct statements.
Yea but that's what you think though. If these fights occurred in the manga they would go completely different.
The him thing isn't even an issue anymore. Even Naruto refers to Kurama as male/he in the scan I posted earlier, and so does Kishimoto in the very first page of the very first chapter of the manga(speaking as a narrator).
There is an obvious level of panic in Kisame here, [
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]. Itachi is different though. [
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We have a statement and his actions don't conflict it, they actually back this statement up. He proceeds to ask Itachi why they had to escape when Itachi was there. Meaning he believes in Itachi not himself.
The him thing isn't even an issue anymore. Even Naruto refers to Kurama as male/he in the scan I posted earlier, and so does Kishimoto in the very first page of the very first chapter of the manga(speaking as a narrator).
The silly argument presented was that the Akatsuki would never refer to a Biju as him/her, since they are just obtainable objects for them. The whole notion has been thrown right out the window with the scan I posted showing Itachi referring to Kurama as "him". Not too sure what else is there for those who are of the mindset that Jiraiya was being referred to.
Okay I agree but what about the Japanese translators who said the context refers to Jiraiya?
Too many facts here. People legit don't understand how inconsistent Part 1 is with Part 2.
Kisame for example, is shown to be around equal terms with Asuma in CQC back in part 1. Part 2 comes along, and Kisame is out-maneuvering Killer Bee, while Edo Asuma couldn't even best his students. There's a plethora of other cases, but people will continue to be
Also I find it funny that Kisame is saying that the title of Sannin is superior to Itachi's Uchiha title as well as Kisame's Seven Swordsmen of the Mist title despite Itachi already shitting on a Sannin and when Kisame's far better title is the Tailless Tailed Beast. Obviously those statements were hyperbole because they have too many holes in them.
Also I find it funny that Kisame is saying that the title of Sannin is superior to Itachi's Uchiha title as well as Kisame's Seven Swordsmen of the Mist title despite Itachi already shitting on a Sannin and when Kisame's far better title is the Tailless Tailed Beast. Obviously those statements were hyperbole because they have too many holes in them.
Yeah but my point is that Kisame was downplaying the duo by bringing up those titles when they have better titles/feats that put them beyond even Jiraiya's title. Going by that statement, Tsunade is above Itachi and Kisame as well because she's Hokage and Sannin which is much better than an Uchiha or a SSM.
Yeah but my point is that Kisame was downplaying the duo by bringing up those titles when they have better titles/feats that put them beyond even Jiraiya's title. Going by that statement, Tsunade is above Itachi and Kisame as well because she's Hokage and Sannin which is much better than an Uchiha or a SSM.
He was talking about their titles. Tsunade's title is indeed > both those titles. Kisame was only bringing up the groups they belonged to, group titles. Not individual nicknames like Tailess Tailed Beast.
Okay I agree but what about the Japanese translators who said the context refers to Jiraiya?
Also I find it funny that Kisame is saying that the title of Sannin is superior to Itachi's Uchiha title as well as Kisame's Seven Swordsmen of the Mist title despite Itachi already shitting on a Sannin and when Kisame's far better title is the Tailless Tailed Beast. Obviously those statements were hyperbole because they have too many holes in them.
What Japanese translators? Isn't Viz an official translation that people pay for? Far more evidence supports they'r referring to Kurama.
Well, I'd say the Sannin title is easily superior to both those titles, so I don't have an issue with Kisame's statement. It's all just worthless hype, because as you mentioned, Itachi effortlessly put a Sannin to shame. Clearly, it's not at all meant to be taken so say Jiraiya>Itachi and Kisame. Kisame was put on a much higher pedestal in part 2, by not only feats, but hype and portrayal as well that eclipsed the Sannin. Too many inconsistencies between both part 1 and 2, especially concerning Kisame.
The fuck are people arguing over titles for and character statements?
Why don't you instead spend the time dissecting a few lines of dialogue that, realistically, don't hold much sway in part 2, and put up arguments on why Kisame loses to Jiraiya?
I understand the point of using portrayal on characters who have next to little feats or when discussing on going series' (One Piece for example) but Jiraiya and Kisame are done for. Neither are getting anything new. Holy Hell. Just argue with what they've done.
The fuck are people arguing over titles for and character statements?
Why don't you instead spend the time dissecting a few lines of dialogue that, realistically, don't hold much sway in part 2, and put up arguments on why Kisame loses to Jiraiya?
I understand the point of using portrayal on characters who have next to little feats or when discussing on going series' (One Piece for example) but Jiraiya and Kisame are done for. Neither are getting anything new. Holy Hell. Just argue with what they've done.
Numbers aren't really an issue for Jiraiya, considering Shima can summon the entire toad army by herself. Immortal duo would be interesting solely for the fact that Kakuzu might possess enough ninjutsu to keep Jiraiya pressured to a point, and intel would potentially matter on Hidan. Think he could take the immortal duo though. Doubt he could take on any other duo. Sasori is a ***** without intel, Deidara is especially capable of dealing with summons. Itachi is a terrible matchup for him, Kisame not really relevant in that matchup as he wouldn't be needed.
One on one though Jiraiya takes everyone but Pain, Itachi and Obito. And Gama Rinsho is a potential argument to be made against all 3 of those, but difficult to pull off with the pressure those 3 can apply.
Obito, Pain, Itachi, Oro w/ ET>>SM Jiraiya>Rest of Akatsuki. Arguments can be made for several other Akatsuki members beating Jman if he starts in base, depending on intel.
Obito, Pain, Itachi, Oro w/ ET>>SM Jiraiya>Rest of Akatsuki. Arguments can be made for several other Akatsuki members beating Jman if he starts in base, depending on intel.
