jiraiya vs akatsuki

[Forbidden Technique]

Coming back from my hiatus just to note that Kisame nor Itachi were speaking about Jiraiya in that famous manga page. They were speaking about the kyuubi, gotta read it in it's context, because the structure makes no sense if they're referring to Jiraiya.

The viz page:

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"Even if you might be able to take HIM on, I'm not so sure about me. HE'S in a different league."

"It was great finally finding HIM at the ramen shop, but.. HIS babysitter was one of the three great shinobi of konoha legend"

So..Jiraiya is babysitting Jiraiya?

No. Jiraiya is babysitting Naruto. That is the he(and why I emphasized the he/him etc) Kisame is referring to(well, the beast inside Naruto).

Kisame even notes after their encounter with Jiraiya that Itachi could have taken him.

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This came after Kisame had subdued Naruto by taking his chakra away from him so he was no longer considered a potential threat in releasing the kyuubi.

Exactly, and if simple context is too much to comprehend, Kishi literally drew it out for the not so proficient readers. Just like how you pointed out that Itachi and Kisame were, in fact, referring to Kurama, and not Jiraiya:

The slightest bit of Kurama's presence very clearly alarmed both Itachi and Kisame

Spoiler

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Edit: Just in case page doesn't work

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While Jiraiya's arrival and presence got the opposite reaction

Spoiler

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Edit:

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The distinct difference in reaction to both Kurama and Jiraiya are accurate with what the actual manga page states and suggests. Not only is it very obvious and clear what is stated and shown, but it also doesn't proceed to butcher everything else that occurred in this manga as well. It makes sense that Itachi and Kisame were worried about facing Kurama, who was knowingly by far the strongest of the Biju, and also an essential piece to Madara's arsenal that allowed him to rival SM Hashirama. However, we're supposed to rationalize that Itachi required back up from the Akatsuki just to take Jiraiya down when he has already defeated another Sannin with minimum effort? Please. The silly interpretation also conveniently ignores Kisame later questioning why the retreat is necessary with Itachi's power, as you also pointed out. But of course, trying to prove what should be considered common sense and basic reading comprehension will go as a waisted effort.

As far as responding to the thread, Jiraiya can win against everyone outside of Obito, Pain and Itachi.

Did I persuade you that Itachi wins in our debate?

 

[Booker]

Exactly, and if simple context is too much to comprehend, Kishi literally drew it out for the not so proficient readers. Just like how you pointed out that Itachi and Kisame were, in fact, referring to Kurama, and not Jiraiya:

The slightest bit of Kurama's presence very clearly alarmed both Itachi and Kisame

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

While Jiraiya's arrival and presence got the opposite reaction

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The distinct difference in reaction to both Kurama and Jiraiya are accurate with what the actual manga page states and suggests. Not only is it very obvious and clear what is stated and shown, but it also doesn't proceed to butcher everything else that occurred in this manga as well. It makes sense that Itachi and Kisame were worried about facing Kurama, who was knowingly by far the strongest of the Biju, and also an essential piece to Madara's arsenal that allowed him to rival SM Hashirama. However, we're supposed to rationalize that Itachi required back up from the Akatsuki just to take Jiraiya down when he has already defeated another Sannin with minimum effort? Please. The silly interpretation also conveniently ignores Kisame later questioning why the retreat is necessary with Itachi's power, as you also pointed out. But of course, trying to prove what should be considered common sense and basic reading comprehension will go as a waisted effort.



Did I persuade you that Itachi wins in our debate?

The scans you posted aren't loading and I really wanted to read them lol

 

[Forbidden Technique]

The scans you posted aren't loading and I really wanted to read them lol

Damn, that's weird. Let me know if this works.

Itachi and Kisame being alarmed from Kurama's presence

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Kisame smurking and giggling, while Itachi not showing a single fuck about Jiraiya being there

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[DrProof]

Exactly, and if simple context is too much to comprehend, Kishi literally drew it out for the not so proficient readers. Just like how you pointed out that Itachi and Kisame were, in fact, referring to Kurama, and not Jiraiya:

The slightest bit of Kurama's presence very clearly alarmed both Itachi and Kisame

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Edit: Just in case page doesn't work

You must be registered for see links

While Jiraiya's arrival and presence got the opposite reaction

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Edit:

You must be registered for see links

The distinct difference in reaction to both Kurama and Jiraiya are accurate with what the actual manga page states and suggests. Not only is it very obvious and clear what is stated and shown, but it also doesn't proceed to butcher everything else that occurred in this manga as well. It makes sense that Itachi and Kisame were worried about facing Kurama, who was knowingly by far the strongest of the Biju, and also an essential piece to Madara's arsenal that allowed him to rival SM Hashirama. However, we're supposed to rationalize that Itachi required back up from the Akatsuki just to take Jiraiya down when he has already defeated another Sannin with minimum effort? Please. The silly interpretation also conveniently ignores Kisame later questioning why the retreat is necessary with Itachi's power, as you also pointed out. But of course, trying to prove what should be considered common sense and basic reading comprehension will go as a waisted effort.



Did I persuade you that Itachi wins in our debate?

I've no idea why an explanation was even needed. Literally is easy to comprehend.

 

[Booker]

Funny because there is no mention of Kurama anywhere. What's also hilarious is that you're arguing that there is no connection between, "He's in an entirely different league" and "Even our titles pale in comparison". Honestly, do you even know what you're arguing here?

Is English not your first language?

The intial subject is Naruto.

Then, the subject switches to Jiraiya when they discuss HIS (Naruto's) babysitter.

It is actually sort of scary that you can't comprehend this, so I'm just going to assume you're being stubborn.

 

[NarutoX28]

Is English not your first language?

The intial subject is Naruto.

Then, the subject switches to Jiraiya when they discuss HIS (Naruto's) babysitter.

It is actually sort of scary that you can't comprehend this, so I'm just going to assume you're being stubborn.

I understand the argument quite clearly, but gave a rebuttal of how fallible that argumentation is. In simplest terms (as you guys would prefer), it's superficial.

 

[NarutoX28]

"He's in an entirely different league":

He = Kurama/Naruto being the host

"Even our titles pale in comparison":

Jiraiya

This isn't hard to comprehend. Jesus.

Yeah, not seeing how.

Argue context, not semantics and then come back to me with a decent argument.

Forbidden Technique's was by far more convincing and an interesting read since it wasn't as simplistic as arguing semantics. I'd prefer you guys delve deeper instead of whining how "stubborn" I am because you guys are resorting to elementary level argumentation.

 

[ToshiZO]

Kyubi chakra presence vs Jiraiya's presence isn't much of an argument, when they literally set up a a delaying tactic just to avoid Jiraiya. Forget how they reacted to presences, they laid out a plan just to not run into him. So that's already a weak argument.

To make things worse, this scene [

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] didn't even happen yet. This scene happened before they had even encountered Naruto and Jiraiya.

Now why in the hell would they be talking about the Kyuubi there? What did they even see from the Kyuubi to be discussing him? They realized Jiraiya was with Naruto, hence he was the topic of conversation. They wouldn't be talking about no Kyuubi when that was their mission to begin with.

Immediately after they had this conversation they set up a tactic to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto. [

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]


1+1, we have people out here treating this like rocket science, lmfao. Even calling this common sense is an understatement.

 

[BLAZE]

Plus based on EK's explanation wouldn't it be implying that Itachi is calling the kyuubi a hero.

No in the last panel they are talking about jiraiya after kisame brings him in conversation

 

[Hoshigaki Sama]

Kisame was totally shaking in his boots about fighting the toad pedo despite acting arrogant and confident in his battle with the perfect jinchuuriki.

Shit doesn't seem right to me. But who am I, just a humble Sensei, trying to educate the people of this fanon.

 

[DrProof]

Yeah, not seeing how.

Argue context, not semantics and then come back to me with a decent argument.

Forbidden Technique's was by far more convincing and an interesting read since it wasn't as simplistic as arguing semantics. I'd prefer you guys delve deeper instead of whining how "stubborn" I am because you guys are resorting to elementary level argumentation.

Elementary argumentation? Is your lack of comprehension really manipulating you this much, so much in fact you have to call factual context elementary, or better yet, an argument? What EK, and FT, and I, and anyone who else has said similar to us are correct. You're wrong, it's not hard at all to comprehend. Just concede, because you're seriously wrong regarding the implication — Basic transitioning is done in that panel, from Kurama to Jiraiya.

 

[ToshiZO]

What Kurama, where? Why are they talking about a bijuu? Are they facing one? Last time I checked their mission is to capture Naruto a jinchuuriki. Without even the mention of Kurama or a bijuu they are randomly talking about where they measure up against the nine tails fox after seeing nothing?


Yea they're totally not talking about the new set of info they have, they are randomly discussing the strength of the bijuu of their target now of all times without encountering him.


Did Kisame just have an epiphany upon entering the village is that it? Lmfao.

You can tell Kishi was trying to drive home this notion of Jiraiya having the capibility to take both of them on [

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]. Only leaving Itachi open as an option before (Itachi and Jiraiya killing each other) , during (when kisame was pissing his pants inside of the toad, Itachi was calm), and after (Kisame questioned Itachi running) the encounter. It's a consistent portrayal.

We ignoring logic because Kisame said "him" two times in a row between two different sentences and timestamps?

 

[NarutoX28]

Elementary argumentation? Is your lack of comprehension really manipulating you this much, so much in fact you have to call factual context elementary, or better yet, an argument? What EK, and FT, and I, and anyone who else has said similar to us are correct. You're wrong, it's not hard at all to comprehend. Just concede, because you're seriously wrong regarding the implication — Basic transitioning is done in that panel, from Kurama to Jiraiya.

Just stop dude. Not only is this information conveyed through a translated medium, so there is bound to be an error to begin with, but you are also discarding the other possibility that this is a vague referent; something that makes who is being referred to inexplicit which is fairly probable since this is a translated medium, hence why we don't take the pronouns used for granted in the first place. It has nothing to do with comprehension because I've acknowledged that point, but gave reasons why I disagreed with it.

FT did something far better than what you did. You simply quibbled over semantics while FT conveyed things on a grander scale by using context which was done more effectively. I don't agree with it, but it was an interesting read.

 

[Zexion~]

I don't see why he would be terrified of the Nine-Tails in a child but casually laugh about stomping the 8 tails PERFECT-JIN....

 

[DrProof]

Just stop dude. Not only is this information conveyed through a translated medium, so there is bound to be an error to begin with, but you are also discarding the other possibility that this is a vague referent; something that makes who is being referred to inexplicit which is fairly probable since this is a translated medium, hence why we don't take the pronouns used for granted in the first place. It has nothing to do with comprehension because I've acknowledged that point, but gave reasons why I disagreed with it.

FT did something far better than what you did. You simply quibbled over semantics while FT conveyed things on a grander scale by using context which was done more effectively. I don't agree with it, but it was an interesting read.

I frankly don't care why you disagreed with my premise, as it was one in the same with EK, and FT. I've no idea why you're attempting to turn this into a competition of comparisons regarding FT, and my explanation.

The context is blatantly clear, get over it.

 

[BLAZE]

So lemme break this

till the translation fits your argument of portrayal its okay when not :lol

Not only is this information conveyed through a translated medium, so there is bound to be an error to begin with

when you were using a translated medium to show the portrayal

Kishi was trying to drive home this notion having the capibility to take both of them on

using a scan that is followed up with kid sasuke thinking he can take out itachi getting his ass beaten by him

 

[Forbidden Technique]

I've no idea why an explanation was even needed. Literally is easy to comprehend.

Was simply reinforcing his point. It's very easy to comprehend, true, however you'll always have a few unfortunate users who will continue to make an absolute mess out of everything, evident by ToshiZo's indirect "rebuttal" to my post. And I get a lot of things end up as conjecture here, but this is not one of those cases. It's either you get it, or you fabricate and misconstrue things to fit your opinion. Can't really be helped.

I don't see why he would be terrified of the Nine-Tails in a child but casually laugh about stomping the 8 tails PERFECT-JIN....

So believing the alternative makes more sense to you? Itachi required additional back up from the Akatsuki just to take down Jiraiya, when he already destroyed Orochimaru without breaking a sweat? Or would the strongest Biju, by far, require the Akatsuki's back up. Take your pick.

This is not something to be viewed as controversial. This is literally like you saying, I can't see how the Philadelphia Eagles wear green... It shouldn't be up for discussion, because it's right in the manga page. The slightest bit of Kurama's presence immediately alarmed Itachi and Kisame. Fact. Nothing on Jiraiya's presence received the same response. Fact. Alternatively, Kisame chuckled and said he never believed the delaying tactic would of worked in the first place. So what does that tell you? They were expecting him to show up eventually. Now, If Kurama's mere chakra disturbed them, imagine if Kurama was completely released right in front of them. Legit feel like I'm explaining the A-B-C's.

 

[Zexion~]

Was simply reinforcing his point. It's very easy to comprehend, true, however you'll always have a few unfortunate users who will continue to make an absolute mess out of everything, evident by ToshiZo's indirect "rebuttal" to my post. And I get a lot of things end up as conjecture here, but this is not one of those cases. It's either you get it, or you fabricate and misconstrue things to fit your opinion. Can't really be helped.



So believing the alternative makes more sense to you? Itachi required additional back up from the Akatsuki just to take down Jiraiya, when he already destroyed a Sannin? Or would the strongest Biju, by far, require the Akatsuki's back up. Take your pick.

This is not something to be viewed as controversial. This is literally like you saying, I can't see how the Philadelphia Eagles wear green... It shouldn't be up for discussion, because it's right in the manga page. The slightest bit of Kurama's presence immediately alarmed Itachi and Kisame. Fact. Nothing on Jiraiya's presence received the same response. Fact. Alternatively, Kisame chuckled and said he never believed the delaying tactic would of worked in the first place. So what does that tell you? They were not surprised he was there, and neither were they scared. Now, If Kurama's mere chakra disturbed them, imagine if Kurama was completely released right in front of them. Legit feel like I'm explaining the A-B-C's.

No I think you all are idiots and are trying to make something out of the fact that Kisame likes to talk up his opponents lol

 

[TheEvilOne]

Wait people actually think Kisame was talking about Kurama on that scan? Gosh. This place has reached a new level of stupidity. It is clear as hell Kishi's intention was to hype Jiraiya, anyone with common sense knows this. The anime follows this logic, and literally every other manga translation as well.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

No I think you all are idiots and are trying to make something out of the fact that Kisame likes to talk up his opponents lol

Itachi endorsed it though. And Kisame more so likes to underrate his opponents lol.

Wait people actually think Kisame was talking about Kurama on that scan? Gosh. This place has reached a new level of stupidity. It is clear as hell Kishi's intention was to hype Jiraiya, anyone with common sense knows this. The anime follows this logic, and literally every other manga translation as well.

Yeah man, Kishi intended to hype up Jiraiya in that scan so he can later dehype him.

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Makes perfect sense.