[Discussion] Izuna was better than madara before you know....

[ItachiStyle]

How do you figure those are Madara's techs when he has Izunas eyes? the techs reside in the eyes not the body.

Well, as has been discussed in another thread I started, the implication seems to be that Perfect Susanoo is an EMS technique at best, not a Rinnegan one, so perhaps Izuna had some form of it.

So far we haven't actually seen Madara use Ameratsu, so he may have an additional power as yet unseen instead (maybe winding time backwards or something?). Maybe Izuna's powers were somewhat different to Madara's also. We shall have to wait and see.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Well, as has been discussed in another thread I started, the implication seems to be that Perfect Susanoo is an EMS technique at best, not a Rinnegan one, so perhaps Izuna had some form of it.

So far we haven't actually seen Madara use Ameratsu, so he may have an additional power as yet unseen instead (maybe winding time backwards or something?). Maybe Izuna's powers were somewhat different to Madara's also. We shall have to wait and see.

Right, my line of thinking on this was similar to how Sasuke attained Amaterasu by implanting Itachi's eyes. For all we know and most likely that was Izunas' Susan'o and we have never been shown Madaras Susan'o.

 

[Champ]

When they both awaken the Mangekyo Madara was selected as their leader, if Izuna really was stronger than Madara then he would've been their leader

 

[anabolicwindow]

But it was said that madara was born with the strongest chakra the uchihas ever saw...not izuna...so don't really know

 

[chopstickchakra]

When they both awaken the Mangekyo Madara was selected as their leader, if Izuna really was stronger than Madara then he would've been their leader

I never said he was stronger, you guys should start reading the words for what they say not what you think they mean. Also Madara was older idk if your familiar with feudalism, but the elder almost always takes the throne and if he doesn't...expect a civil war. The Uchiha knew how Madara was and even if Izuna was a better choice(which I never said he was) they wouldn't have picked him because Madara would have rebelled and that would hurt the clan(not that electing Madara to lead didn't).

 

[~Zonta~]

He got his eyes from Obito not madara. And we don't know the situation of the eyes he was given, maybe he was given a developed rinnegan and with no process of learning sharingan when being given rinnegan directly it is feasible that sharingan techs would be lost to that person.

First of all Madara was the one who gave his eyes to Nagato you see for yourself here

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and the eyes that madara gave him the same sharingan eyes which were developed into rinnegan when he used Hashirams cells..... so its not the eye tech agains its the person ability to wield it........

 

[chopstickchakra]

But it was said that madara was born with the strongest chakra the uchihas ever saw...not izuna...so don't really know

Said key word there, also don't rememebr seeing that but it doesn't change anything. I never mentioned the stregth of either's chakra, I said the eye techs that people love Madara for having are more than likely a result of his implanting Izunas eyes the same way Sasuke attaining Amaterasu by implanting Itachis eyes.

 

[Blaze Release]

Its cannon, yes cannon that Izuna was better than madara.
Sure it was said that they wer roughly equal, however the reason i believe izuna was better than madara is because madara lost his eye sight before him. Madara as we know only acknowledges power and he spams power. No surprise he went blind before izuna who activated his ms around the same time as him.

Clearly izuna was able to stay alive during this time period whilst limiting his ms usage, madara clearly couldn't.
However its to be acknowledged that the reason why madara could've went blind early is because as the manga said he often found himself pitted against hashirama therefore you can say he was forced to use the ms more because of the opponent he faced.

Still believe that izuna had more skill, whilst madara had potential to become stronger due to his lust for power.
Btw madara was leader because he was the older bro.
Just like how Itachi was being groomed to become the uchiha leader by his father because he was the older bro

 

[anabolicwindow]

It was stated by obito...so maybe he just wanted to look cool in front of sasuke
but yeah coincidentally sasuke has the same abilities as itachi, though it could all be coincidence

 

[chopstickchakra]

First of all Madara was the one who gave his eyes to Nagato you see for yourself here

You must be registered for see links

and the eyes that madara gave him the same sharingan eyes which were developed into rinnegan when he used Hashirams cells..... so its not the eye tech agains its the person ability to wield it........

Ok I didn't remember the reveal that Madara actually gave Nagato his eyes I thought they were still going with Obito playing Madara gave nagato his eyes, but I still think he gave him his rinnegan not a sharingan(neither of which can be proved) and I'll need more convincing it's the weilder not the eye because i highly doubt Sasuke was ever going to learn Amaterasu until Itachi's eyes were implanted in him.

 

[~Zonta~]

Its cannon, yes cannon that Izuna was better than madara.
Sure it was said that they wer roughly equal, however the reason i believe izuna was better than madara is because madara lost his eye sight before him. Madara as we know only acknowledges power and he spams power. No surprise he went blind before izuna who activated his ms around the same time as him.

Clearly izuna was able to stay alive during this time period whilst limiting his ms usage, madara clearly couldn't.
However its to be acknowledged that the reason why madara could've went blind early is because as the manga said he often found himself pitted against hashirama therefore you can say he was forced to use the ms more because of the opponent he faced.

Still believe that izuna had more skill, whilst madara had potential to become stronger due to his lust for power.
Btw madara was leader because he was the older bro.
Just like how Itachi was being groomed to become the uchiha leader by his father because he was the older bro

It may be since madara fought Hashirama more than once and going against the Number one and great ninja more than once if a great feat itself... And we haven't heard Izuna went toe-to-toe with Hashirama or Madara.... Knowing Madara if considered him equal he would acknowledge Izuna but he didn't so I don't thinks so thats the case........

 

[chopstickchakra]

It was stated by obito...so maybe he just wanted to look cool in front of sasuke
but yeah coincidentally sasuke has the same abilities as itachi, though it could all be coincidence

I don't think so that's the idea I'm working off of. Sasuke attained Amaterasu when Itachis' eye was implanted, it then only stands to reason that Madara would also have attained some techs from implanting Izunas' eyes. These techs(that I believe stem from Izunas' sharingan), I believe, are the techs that people reading Naruto like Madara so much.

 

[Champ]

Its cannon, yes cannon that Izuna was better than madara.
Sure it was said that they wer roughly equal, however the reason i believe izuna was better than madara is because madara lost his eye sight before him. Madara as we know only acknowledges power and he spams power. No surprise he went blind before izuna who activated his ms around the same time as him.

Clearly izuna was able to stay alive during this time period whilst limiting his ms usage, madara clearly couldn't.
However its to be acknowledged that the reason why madara could've went blind early is because as the manga said he often found himself pitted against hashirama therefore you can say he was forced to use the ms more because of the opponent he faced.

Still believe that izuna had more skill, whilst madara had potential to become stronger due to his lust for power.
Btw madara was leader because he was the older bro.
Just like how Itachi was being groomed to become the uchiha leader by his father because he was the older bro

Show me in the manga where it said MS Madara fought Hashirama, cause I remember it sayin after he fought countless Senju it was inevitable that he'd fight their leader Hashirama. After he obtained EMS.

 

[~Zonta~]

Ok I didn't remember the reveal that Madara actually gave Nagato his eyes I thought they were still going with Obito playing Madara gave nagato his eyes, but I still think he gave him his rinnegan not a sharingan(neither of which can be proved) and I'll need more convincing it's the weilder not the eye because i highly doubt Sasuke was ever going to learn Amaterasu until Itachi's eyes were implanted in him.

It were the same sharingan eyes that awakened the rinnegan and Madara was able to switch Rinnegan to Sharingan here you can see this

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....... also i can prove it by using Itachi and Sasuke's example Itachi can use Amaterasu and Tsukoymi but Sasuke can use Amaterasu but cannot use Tsukyomi but instead uses his Sharingan's genjutsu her u can that here ...

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[chopstickchakra]

It were the same sharingan eyes that awakened the rinnegan and Madara was able to switch Rinnegan to Sharingan here you can see this

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....... also i can prove it by using Itachi and Sasuke's example Itachi can use Amaterasu and Tsukoymi but Sasuke can use Amaterasu but cannot use Tsukyomi but instead uses his Sharingan's genjutsu her u can that here ...

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Yes Madara can shut his rinnegan and sharingan off but nagato has never been shown to be able to do that, that i recall, possibly having rinnegan stage eyes implanted locked them into rinnegan stage.
We don't know that he "can't" use tsukyomi just that he hasn't yet. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

[~Zonta~]

Yes Madara can shut his rinnegan and sharingan off but nagato has never been shown to be able to do that, that i recall, possibly having rinnegan stage eyes implanted locked them into rinnegan stage.
We don't know that he "can't" use tsukyomi just that he hasn't yet. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Hehe but if you read in chapter 585 it was mangekyo tech not a normal technique and they were already in Sound genjutsu which was powerful enough to stop Sasuke's and Itachi movements even in Sussanoo

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and the situatuion was desperate so Itachi used Tsukyomi his best tech and so did Sasuke since they could not over power powerful genjutsu with normal tech.....

 

[chopstickchakra]

Hehe but if you read in chapter 585 it was mangekyo tech not a normal technique and they were already in Sound genjutsu which was powerful enough to stop Sasuke's and Itachi movements even in Sussanoo

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and the situatuion was desperate so Itachi used Tsukyomi his best tech and so did Sasuke since they could not over power powerful genjutsu with normal tech.....

Agreed they both did the strongest tech they had but that still doesn't rule out a possibilty for tsukyomi to be dormant in Sasuke until he is able to activate it and the fact that he did not get Tsukyomi does not disprove my thought that Madara received some techs from Izunas eyes.

 

[Draxus]

Right, my line of thinking on this was similar to how Sasuke attained Amaterasu by implanting Itachi's eyes. For all we know and most likely that was Izunas' Susan'o and we have never been shown Madaras Susan'o.

Ok I didn't remember the reveal that Madara actually gave Nagato his eyes I thought they were still going with Obito playing Madara gave nagato his eyes, but I still think he gave him his rinnegan not a sharingan(neither of which can be proved) and I'll need more convincing it's the weilder not the eye because i highly doubt Sasuke was ever going to learn Amaterasu until Itachi's eyes were implanted in him.

Wow dude you need to re-read the manga.

All of Sasuke's current known abilities he had BEFORE he implanted Itatchi's eyes, just so happens they have similar ones. It was probably same for Izuna and Madara.

It has not been confirmed EMS gives you additional abilities or the abilities of the original owner of the eyes. All we know right now EMS gives you a power up to existing MS abilities and the eyes don't lose their light. So you can't say all Madara's powers were Izuna's or even they were, were in the same scale.

Also the manga made it VERY clear. Madara awakened and removed the Rinnegan before even meeting Obito!!! How the heck could Obito have given them to Nagato as a child, when Nagato is clearly OLDER THAN OBITO?

Remember... Nagato was one Juriya's first students, so that would at least make him the same age if not older than Minato who was Obito's sensei.

 

[~Zonta~]

Agreed they both did the strongest tech they had but that still doesn't rule out a possibilty for tsukyomi to be dormant in Sasuke until he is able to activate it and the fact that he did not get Tsukyomi does not disprove my thought that Madara received some techs from Izunas eyes.

Sasuke Implanted amaterasu in Sasuke's eye when he enchanted something here

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and Uchiha Madara stole his brothers eyes so I am not sure he will have something but may be Madara might have some techs of Izuna

 

[Aze]

They where equal based on MS.

Also Izuna seemed to have better controll over hes MS.

Since Madara spammed hes MS thus Madara was loosing hes eyesight.

Izuna gave/was taken hes eyes to Madara.

Madara became EMS user.

After this Izuna was out of the comparisson.

Since Izuna was blind after this.


For some reason I think , that both of them had Susanoo + something else.


But Perfect Susanoo is EMS technique only.


So Perfect susanoo originates from Izuna.