Itachi vs Tobirama
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TRE MERCER
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I suppose it can go either way, but I am leaning more to Tobirama. From what we know, Tobirama can use all 5 elements along side the Yin and Yang. Although his best element is the Water jutsu, which he does not have that impressive feats with, and the other elements jutsu that he can use are most likely inferior to his water jutsus. However, itachi does not have that much of a great feats with elements either, and he lacks 2 elements as well. In addition to that, Tobirama has his strongest offensive jutsu here, which is the explosion tags jutsu. Itachi on the other hand does not have any comparable attack to that in this scenario, so that may be a great problem for him.
The only question here is whether or not if Tobirama can fight while controlling the ET at the same time. As far as I remember, we haven't seen Kabuto or Oro doing that, and both of them are superior to Tobirama with the ET at least. I think that might be a huge factor.
In term of speed, without FTG, Tobirama's speed is not that much, and only comparable to Hiruzen's speed as we have seen in the manga/Anime. So, I think itachi's physical speed is superior to Tobirama. He also has better feats with Taijutsu, shurkin skill, and obviously Genjutsu.
On the other hand, Tobirama is far smarter than itachi, and is a sensor with clones. His chakra is more likely bigger than itachi's by a big deal, which will lead to itachi's downfall eventually imo.
The only question here is whether or not if Tobirama can fight while controlling the ET at the same time. As far as I remember, we haven't seen Kabuto or Oro doing that, and both of them are superior to Tobirama with the ET at least. I think that might be a huge factor.
In term of speed, without FTG, Tobirama's speed is not that much, and only comparable to Hiruzen's speed as we have seen in the manga/Anime. So, I think itachi's physical speed is superior to Tobirama. He also has better feats with Taijutsu, shurkin skill, and obviously Genjutsu.
On the other hand, Tobirama is far smarter than itachi, and is a sensor with clones. His chakra is more likely bigger than itachi's by a big deal, which will lead to itachi's downfall eventually imo.
NarutoKage2
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Probably tobirama.
Id take you up on your offer (blaze release) but my pc crashed and I cant post pics, links etc.
Basically itachi would have to use an exploding suiton clone to stun tobirama, then quickly follow it up with genjutsu.
No way someone with tobiramas experience is looking into itachis eyes, so he'll have to use his finger genjutsu.
It all comes down to how fast itachi can cast hand seals to use these two jutsu in succession, any other scenario and he loses.
Id take you up on your offer (blaze release) but my pc crashed and I cant post pics, links etc.
Basically itachi would have to use an exploding suiton clone to stun tobirama, then quickly follow it up with genjutsu.
No way someone with tobiramas experience is looking into itachis eyes, so he'll have to use his finger genjutsu.
It all comes down to how fast itachi can cast hand seals to use these two jutsu in succession, any other scenario and he loses.
NarutoKage2
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Probably tobirama.
Id take you up on your offer (blaze release) but my pc crashed and I cant post pics, links etc.
Basically itachi would have to use an exploding suiton clone to stun tobirama, then quickly follow it up with genjutsu.
No way someone with tobiramas experience is looking into itachis eyes, so he'll have to use his finger genjutsu.
It all comes down to how fast itachi can cast hand seals to use these two jutsu in succession, any other scenario and he loses.
Id take you up on your offer (blaze release) but my pc crashed and I cant post pics, links etc.
Basically itachi would have to use an exploding suiton clone to stun tobirama, then quickly follow it up with genjutsu.
No way someone with tobiramas experience is looking into itachis eyes, so he'll have to use his finger genjutsu.
It all comes down to how fast itachi can cast hand seals to use these two jutsu in succession, any other scenario and he loses.
Masked man
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My opinion:
Ninjutsu: Tobirama > Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi > Tobirama
Taijutsu: Tobirama > Itachi
Intelligence: Tobirama = Itachi
Speed: Tobirama = Itachi (Hiraishin restricted)
Stamina: Tobirama > Itachi
Strength: Tobirama > Itachi
Hand seals: Tobirama = Itachi
My verdict is: Tobirama wins very high difficulty.
Ninjutsu: Tobirama > Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi > Tobirama
Taijutsu: Tobirama > Itachi
Intelligence: Tobirama = Itachi
Speed: Tobirama = Itachi (Hiraishin restricted)
Stamina: Tobirama > Itachi
Strength: Tobirama > Itachi
Hand seals: Tobirama = Itachi
My verdict is: Tobirama wins very high difficulty.
Under these conditions, Tobirama handily takes this
- Fought Uchihas so many time to fall for genjutsus(at least not visual type ones), likely knows how to fight without eye contact and he has chakra sensing ability for prevention to boot. Also upon his revival, Tobirama displayed an incredible release of chakra instantly. I think he could break any normal genjutsu of Itachi close to instantly even if he were caught by one. With the sensing ability he'd always know Itachi's position to boot
- Sensing also helps for Itachi's clone feints considering he'd always know when a clone pops out
- He has superior shunshin to Itachi considering he was the fastest shinobi in his era and was surprised someone(Minato) was faster than him and well as striking speed(his mindless Jubito tagging)
- Superior chakra reserve as well. With this he can use clones not only to avoid danger, but to outnumber and outlast Itachi without too much risks in the end
- Also has suiton to counter Itachi's Katon
- Edos can chase down Itachi anytime and use the explosion thing to finish him off considering Itachi has no sealing/blocking/escaping method
- Fought Uchihas so many time to fall for genjutsus(at least not visual type ones), likely knows how to fight without eye contact and he has chakra sensing ability for prevention to boot. Also upon his revival, Tobirama displayed an incredible release of chakra instantly. I think he could break any normal genjutsu of Itachi close to instantly even if he were caught by one. With the sensing ability he'd always know Itachi's position to boot
- Sensing also helps for Itachi's clone feints considering he'd always know when a clone pops out
- He has superior shunshin to Itachi considering he was the fastest shinobi in his era and was surprised someone(Minato) was faster than him and well as striking speed(his mindless Jubito tagging)
- Superior chakra reserve as well. With this he can use clones not only to avoid danger, but to outnumber and outlast Itachi without too much risks in the end
- Also has suiton to counter Itachi's Katon
- Edos can chase down Itachi anytime and use the explosion thing to finish him off considering Itachi has no sealing/blocking/escaping method
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That is simply untrue. Nothing more.
If you can't see why Tobirama needing to expend time and effort (whether large or small) dispelling Itachi's Genjutsu might be a problem, then I have nothing more to say to you.
He doesn't know that they can explode.
Let's not blur Tobirama's ability in Shunshin and his strength with Hiraishin. I reckon that hype was based around his ability with the latter, and not necessarily related to his foot speed. He was slower than Minato so his comment there was irrelevant.
He also took heavy damage in displaying that feat against Obito.
It's not going to be a problem
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Depends
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Even if he were true, the fact he was surprised Minato could outspeed his shunshin heavily implies he never encountered someone capable to do this before, more than enough to see he is faster than someone on Itachi's level of speed who couldn't even outspeed Sasuke during this war
True but JJ Obito >>>> Itachi in speed, so?
Regardless of how well Tobirama can handle Genjutsu, being put in an illusion is not a good thing. Nidaime isn't immune to these techniques. That's not debatable.
Byakugan?
Deidara's Bunshin took time to expand before detonating. If I recall correctly, Itachi's can explode near instantly. There doesn't seem to be any obvious danger with Bunshin Daibakuha, considering it is different to Deidara's Jutsu.
That, in no way, reveals whether Tobirama is faster or slow than Itachi in terms of Shunshin or reaction speed. That information is not appropriate here.
Er, placing that marking wasn't really a valid feat? I'm sure Tsunade could land a blow on Madara if it meant having her head ripped off. It doesn't really mean anything, does it? This doesn't have anything to do with Itachi; rather, the usefulness of using that 'feat'.
Illusionary world is never a good thing. Not the point though. The pages i displayed was to show that even inside a genjutsu, he'd always know Itachi's position, attacks/counter-acts, not stopping his capability to fight as well as if he was in a genjutsu or not. Add that into the fact that he displayed the capacity to release strong levels of chakra instantly upon his revival and it's easy to notice it won't take him time to break Itachi's normal genjutsus the moment he will notice he is put in one(and with the sensing ability, he'll notice the distinction between the real Itachi and the false images quite easily)
The page was to show that before explosion, the chakra needs to be concentrated on one point. It's probably the same way that Itachi's Bunshin Daibakuha works as well and no it didn't explode instantly. If it were the case, Kakashi would not:
1- Manage to notice it's a explosive clone
2- That it was about to explode
3- Manage to take Kurenai out of the explosive range
If Kakashi could notice, a sensor on Tobirama level(especially a battle experienced and intelligent one) will easily notice this and get out of the way as well
It does considering it means his shunshin was above the likes of Hashirama, Madara and everyone in his era. Unless you think Itachi's shunshin is on par with them(ridiculous when you see their feats like blind Madara close to blitzing SM Naruto, Hashirama outruning Bijudamas and other things like that), there is no denying that his shunshin or reaction speed is above Itachi's
He reacted to JJ Obito's shunshin in time to place 5 tags and a marking, a feat vastly above the standards of the likes of Itachi(who got cut in half by Kabuto without reaction), let alone Tsunade
Itachi wins this mid-high diff.
-Itachi's Shunshin, to our knowledge is superior to that of Tobirama's. Itachi also easily reacted to Kirin with his Sharingan. That puts Itachi above Tobirama in both Shunshin and reaction speed, along with the beneficial pre-cognition that will allow him to anticipate every one of Tobirama's movements before they happen.
-Itachi's Genjutsu will be the deciding factor in this fight. Itachi has the ability to put Tobirama in Genjutsu before Tobirama uses clones (this is IC and thus Tobirama will not be initiating the fight with a Kage Bunshin). And do note, Itachi can make clones himself, whether it's an exploding Bunshin or a crow Bunshin; it'll be highly effective. Why? Well the answer is obvious, explosive Bunshins will take care of clones rather easily with no intel whilst revealing the real Tobirama in the case he is hit. Crow Bunshins will end up scattering if hit, which will allow the crows to utilise Genjutsu as they have in the past. Tobirama is not holding off Genjutsu from clones, Genjutsu from Itachi himself, Genjutsu from scattering clones and the explosions which will be occurring. And inb4 genjutsu useless on clones, I beg to differ. The clone does not go poof,
-Itachi's near a water location. That means Itachi can use his subtle
-Itachi's Kunais and Shurikens almost always hold relevance, regardless if people want to accept that or not. Itachi can infuse his Shurikens with Katon as he did here [
-Itachi's Shunshin, to our knowledge is superior to that of Tobirama's. Itachi also easily reacted to Kirin with his Sharingan. That puts Itachi above Tobirama in both Shunshin and reaction speed, along with the beneficial pre-cognition that will allow him to anticipate every one of Tobirama's movements before they happen.
-Itachi's Genjutsu will be the deciding factor in this fight. Itachi has the ability to put Tobirama in Genjutsu before Tobirama uses clones (this is IC and thus Tobirama will not be initiating the fight with a Kage Bunshin). And do note, Itachi can make clones himself, whether it's an exploding Bunshin or a crow Bunshin; it'll be highly effective. Why? Well the answer is obvious, explosive Bunshins will take care of clones rather easily with no intel whilst revealing the real Tobirama in the case he is hit. Crow Bunshins will end up scattering if hit, which will allow the crows to utilise Genjutsu as they have in the past. Tobirama is not holding off Genjutsu from clones, Genjutsu from Itachi himself, Genjutsu from scattering clones and the explosions which will be occurring. And inb4 genjutsu useless on clones, I beg to differ. The clone does not go poof,
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. Itachi can merely take advantage of this and put them in a long-duration Genjutsu that they won't be escaping. Then they begin going poof one by one from Itachi's attacks.-Itachi's near a water location. That means Itachi can use his subtle
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to hit any of Tobirama's clones, or the real one. This is basically a guaranteed hit on a non-Sharingan user, and the odds of the attack hitting increase exponentially when this jutsu is combined with
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. Furthermore, Itachi has shown the ability to use
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, despite many people disregarding such. Lastly, Itachi also has Water Dragon and has shown adept usage of it given the low amount of hand seals he needed in comparison to Kakashi and Zabuza. Thus to our knowledge, Itachi's Suiton nature has shown greater feats than Tobirama's Suiton affinity. Itachi benefits more from this.-Itachi's Kunais and Shurikens almost always hold relevance, regardless if people want to accept that or not. Itachi can infuse his Shurikens with Katon as he did here [
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], and Tobirama would have no sufficient counter for this. Similarly, Itachi can use a massive Katon that would force Tobirama to use a Suiton for a prolonged duration such as water wall. Now one may say this is useless, but it's far from useless when you realise that Itachi can take advantage of the smoke screen and attack with his clones.
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would be a good idea, but at the end of the day the Kunai's that can be thrown will be the biggest threat to Tobirama [
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][
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]. Hence Tobirama's sensing will be negligible in this scenario with all the things prohibiting its adept work.
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It's just not something you can completely write off, though. IIRC, Tobirama has to actually knead his chakra in order to access his sensing abilities, so it isn't something which is constantly turned on. Yes, he's well placed to escape the illusion once he's aware he's been placed in it. But no, it isn't something which can be totally overlooked. Nidaime still needs to be careful, and he can still be caught out.
Those techniques aren't the same. I'm not sure why you're assuming a similar build up of chakra will be sensed in Itachi's Bunshin. It makes sense for Deidara as his clone was actually swelling up. That isn't the case for Itachi.
Avoiding the explosion is a separate point completely. All that was said was that Tobirama, initially, wouldn't know that the Bunshins are capable of blowing themselves up. And he won't, without intel.
Being known as the 'fastest Shinobi of his time' doesn't tell us how good Tobirama's Shunshin is in relation to Itachi's, because that title may be down to the Second's use of Hiraishin. He was faster than Hashirama and Madara because of the Flying Thunder God technique. You can't draw any conclusions regarding his Body Flicker just from that. I don't know whether Tobirama's overall speed (reactions included) surpasses Itachi's particularly with the Sharingan's precog considered.
It doesn't matter because he took heavy damage in doing so. He hardly 'reacted' to Obito, considering he couldn't actually avoid getting his chest blown out. If Nidaime had evaded the attack, i'd agree completely. But as it is, I don't accept that as proof Tobirama's reaction speed is on par or greater than someone at JJ Obito's level.
Yes he needs to knead chakra, but he always does that in battle(especially in this one where he faces an Uchiha), so? It's not like Tobirama is stupid. Turning on his sensing capability is the first thing he'd do
Neji never saw Deidara's bunshin before, yet he quickly realised that chakra focused on one spot = explosion coming soon. That tells to readers that it's the working of chakra related jutsu explosions including Itachi's
No you missed the point. I was pointing out Kakashi's reaction time to show the number of things Kakashi actually did before the bunshin even exploded, to show it doesn't explode as fast as you said and with Tobirama's sensing on, he will quickly notice the chakra concentration on one spot(if Itachi were to use the explosive Bunshin) and counter it in time. Once again, part1 Kakashi noticed it. You really think Tobirama wouldn't?
No, you didn't understand. I said
1- Tobirama was surprised someone(Minato) had faster shunshin than him
2- It implies that he never encountered someone in his life with shunshin comparable if not superior to his own and that includes Madara, Hashirama and the likes
3- It then implies that his shunshin is above Madara's, Hashirama's and the likes
4- Considering Madara, Hashirama and the fastest one in his era are faster than Itachi, it means Tobirama(who is faster than them) is faster than Itachi as well.
Once again, Itachi wasn't even fast enough to outspeed beginning of war arc Sasuke. His shunshin isn't to be compared to the likes of Tobirama who left him in the dust
And why is that? Putting 5 tags on JJ Obito mid shunshin is a feat Tsunade, Itachi or the likes can't do regardless if it was at the cost of his life or not. Itachi got cut in half by Kabuto without reaction
It'd probably be the other way around. He isn't aware that he's fighting an Uchiha from the off; he'd need to discover that by using his sensing or by spotting the Sharingan (bad idea).
Who am I fighing? -> kneads chakra for sensing. As opposed to; kneads chakra for sensing -> Oh that's who i'm fighting.
I wouldn't just assume he'd go for sensing from the off. It's not as if anything is hidden from him at the start of the match (he can see Itachi clearly in the beginning). I'd like to think he'd resort to it if the situation demanded it - kind of like an Uchiha resorting to the Mangekyou Sharingan once the going gets tough. But I can't say you're wrong for making that point, only that you should consider other possibilities.
You missed the point. I'm asking you why you're assuming that both techniques work in the exact same way. Same outcome but with different mechanics, clearly.
I said Nidaime doesn't initially know that they can explode, which is correct. I said nothing about how he'd go about discovering the technique or how he'd deal with it.
Yep.
Not necessarily. It just means that he was surprised that Yondaime was quicker than him, that's all. Perhaps he thought Shinobi on Madara and Hashirama's level were the only ones who could ever match him/better him in that department. He was certainly faster with Hiraishin..
Can't draw much from that statement alone.
But your initial assumption may not be correct.
Please show me when this happened. And I hope this isn't when the Hokage arrived at the battlefield..
It's hard to consider it a feat when one loses all consideration for their own life. Some ridiculous goals could be achieved if that were the case, such as Konan blowing up Obito.
Itachi not reacting to Kabuto was for an entirely different purpose (Inzanami). If the former didn't care about having his wig pushed back, i'm just not sure what he could do to Obito.
AizenSosuke
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Blaze Release
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There is still confusion with this.
I have reached the conclusion that Minato teleported the hokage's to the kunai he had at the ocean (where he teleported the juubidama). From there, they shunshin to get to the battlefield. Some have claimed when he was edo did he shunshin to that location from konoha to place the kunai then used shunshin to get to the battlefield. I find that highly unlikely