Itachi vs Tobirama

[OnPoint]

Tobirama can win.

-Itachi can't get close to the Edos without blowing himself up, while Tobirama can detonate remotely since he is the one manipulating their movements. There's also the fact that the AoE of two Gojo bombs going off at once is probably something that he won't be escaping unharmed, if at all. Highly doubt he'll escape though.

Bunshin feints are always useful, especially when Itachi can have them self-destruct. It's possible that the summons can be sealed during the window in which they are incapacitated and healing from their damage. Tobirama won't necessarily start with Gojou Kibaku Fuda, after all, and he cannot use it this time with no consideration for his chakra reserves.

-Tobirama was stated to be faster than Madara (Fastest of his time) and that same Madara is fast enough to

You must be registered for see links

Was that with or without Hiraishin?

I don't consider Itachi to have better reaction speed than Sage Naruto, so Tobirama would probably pressure him the same way. Tobirama moved fast enough to tag Juubito right before the latter took off half his body as well. He'd probably beat Itachi in close combat.

That's a debatable topic, given that Itachi is aided by the 3 tomoe's precog-based abilities. CQC may not be wise.

-Itachi's long range moves are mostly Katon IIRC, Suiton hard counters it, especially since Tobirama's Suiton are most likely larger scaled than Itachi's Katon.

Yep.

-Genjutsu is an issue, but clones means that he'll be unable to land it on the original, due to not knowing which one is the original to begin with.

Again, Nidaime doesn't necessarily start with Bunshins at the ready. That gives Itachi the chance to use to Ephemeral (Finger Genjutsu) right from the off. Now, whether or not Tobirama will check for Genjutsu immediately (given that he'll realise he's fighting an Uchiha) is completely debatable. With manga intel, are we saying he knows who Itachi is? He knows of him, sure. But the only other indicator which gives away his opponent's heritage is the Sharingan. And we all know the danger which awaits him should he make eye contact..

Honestly, with Hiraishin restricted, i'm forced to make Itachi the favourite. Not that Nidaime can't win - just that the scenario favours Itachi more.

 

[Bronze]

He would start with Bunshins after seeing Itachi has the Sharingan. After all, his knowledge and experience from knowing the Genjutsu prowess of the Uchiha lead him to create Kage Bunshin.

 

[OnPoint]

How can man just 'see' the Sharingan, without being caught in Itachi's illusion, seeing as he would've needed to make eye contact?

 

[Bronze]

It's just as you assume Itachi will outright begin with Genjutsu at the very instant Tobirama looks at his eye. But if Tobirama is ever caught, he would sense the disturbance in his Chakra Flow.

 

[-Akuma-]

I am an Itachi fan but he loses, if you restrict Tobirama's fodder edos he wins.

 

[OnPoint]

It's just as you assume Itachi will outright begin with Genjutsu at the very instant Tobirama looks at his eye. But if Tobirama is ever caught, he would sense the disturbance in his Chakra Flow.

And rightly so, considering 'Do not look into Itachi's eyes' is actually a thing in this manga. We've had guys trying to fight him whilst looking at his feet for crying out loud. It's what he does.

No-one said anything about Tobirama being unable to notice or escape Itachi's Genjutsu, only that looking into the latter's eyes will lead to problems. Suggesting that Nidaime will start with Bunshins without fully knowing what his opponent is about is completely unreasonable. Intel is key for things like this.

 

[Lariatoo]

It's just as you assume Itachi will outright begin with Genjutsu at the very instant Tobirama looks at his eye. But if Tobirama is ever caught, he would sense the disturbance in his Chakra Flow.

Well... An IC Itachi almost ever starts with genjutsu. Its his bread and butter.

 

[Bronze]

And rightly so, considering 'Do not look into Itachi's eyes' is actually a thing in this manga. We've had guys trying to fight him whilst looking at his feet for crying out loud. It's what he does.

No-one said anything about Tobirama being unable to notice or escape Itachi's Genjutsu, only that looking into the latter's eyes will lead to problems. Suggesting that Nidaime will start with Bunshins without fully knowing what his opponent is about is completely unreasonable. Intel is key for things like this.

Tobirama faced countless Uchiha with powerful Genjutsu, and defeated them all, as well as defeating Izuna. Facing Sharingan user is a normal thing for him.

No-one said anything about Tobirama being unable to notice or escape Itachi's Genjutsu, only that looking into the latter's eyes will lead to problems. Suggesting that Nidaime will start with Bunshins without fully knowing what his opponent is about is completely unreasonable. Intel is key for things like this.

Eye-contact isn't the only thing way to recognise Itachi is an Uchiha; Tobirama, like Mu, can sense the genetic make-up of the person and know from which clan they come from.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

He will do the same thing with Itachi.

 

[OnPoint]

Tobirama faced countless Uchiha with powerful Genjutsu, and defeated them all, as well as defeating Izuna. Facing Sharingan user is a normal thing for him.

We don't know the details about those incidents. We can't really draw any meaning conclusions from that. He may've been overly reliant on Hiraishin, for instance.

Eye-contact isn't the only thing way to recognise Itachi is an Uchiha; Tobirama, like Mu, can sense the genetic make-up of the person and know from which clan they come from.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

He will do the same thing with Itachi.

That is a very fair point. It doesn't shield him from Ephemeral, but yes, I suppose that's a very solid way of avoiding eye contact and deducing who Itachi really is.

 

[Magatsu Izanagi]

It's just as you assume Itachi will outright begin with Genjutsu at the very instant Tobirama looks at his eye. But if Tobirama is ever caught, he would sense the disturbance in his Chakra Flow.

His sensing isn't "constant" is it (legitimately asking you, I've heard things like they have to go into a sort of sensing mode)? Because if it isn't, I don't think he would even think of trying to check for disturbances, as Itachi's genjutsu, even at 3T, can simulate reality so that his opponent wouldn't otherwise notice that they've been placed in one.

And even if he checks for Genjutsu at random intervals, there's no guarantee he'll catch it quickly enough.

 

[Strict]

He would start with Bunshins after seeing Itachi has the Sharingan. After all, his knowledge and experience from knowing the Genjutsu prowess of the Uchiha lead him to create Kage Bunshin.

I like how people always come up with Bunshin feints, but only when the talk's about the Sharingan.

Genjutsu - countered by Bunshin
Amaterasu - countered by Bunshin

Itachi can also use Bunshin. Does this mean that he counters Tobirama's Jutsu with Bunshin as well?

It's called Bunshin feint for a reason. The opponent won't react to Genjutsu or Amaterasu using Bunshin. Bunshin can act as a feint. Kakahsi used a clone feint to avoid the Genjutsu. Doesn't mean it's a counter. Otherwise a Bunshin would always be the answer to overpowered techniques, no matter Genjutsu, Amaterasu, Jinton, Gudou-Dama, Hiraishin. Clone feint is clone feint.

 

[KidGamer65]

Bunshin feints are always useful, especially when Itachi can have them self-destruct. It's possible that the summons can be sealed during the window in which they are incapacitated and healing from their damage. Tobirama won't necessarily start with Gojou Kibaku Fuda, after all, and he cannot use it this time with no consideration for his chakra reserves.



Was that with or without Hiraishin?



That's a debatable topic, given that Itachi is aided by the 3 tomoe's precog-based abilities. CQC may not be wise.



Yep.



Again, Nidaime doesn't necessarily start with Bunshins at the ready. That gives Itachi the chance to use to Ephemeral (Finger Genjutsu) right from the off. Now, whether or not Tobirama will check for Genjutsu immediately (given that he'll realise he's fighting an Uchiha) is completely debatable. With manga intel, are we saying he knows who Itachi is? He knows of him, sure. But the only other indicator which gives away his opponent's heritage is the Sharingan. And we all know the danger which awaits him should he make eye contact..

Honestly, with Hiraishin restricted, i'm forced to make Itachi the favourite. Not that Nidaime can't win - just that the scenario favours Itachi more.

Ehh, you have a point. I'll go with Itachi.

 

[Bronze]

We don't know the details about those incidents. We can't really draw any meaning conclusions from that. He may've been overly reliant on Hiraishin, for instance.

We don't need to have long detail about it. We know Uchiha are naturally gifted in Genjutsu, and a proof is when Konoha's government speculated Uchiha might have controlled Kurama to attack Konoha. Fun fact, Uchiha from the Warring State Era > Uchiha decades after Konoha's foundation.

That is a very fair point. It doesn't shield him from Ephemeral, but yes, I suppose that's a very solid way of avoiding eye contact and deducing who Itachi really is.

A Chunin Genjutsu rank that Naruto could temporarily resist, does not pose a threat to Tobirama. A Chunin Genjutsu rank that Sakura and Chiyo broke does not pose a threat to Tobirama.

 

[Bronze]

I like how people always come up with Bunshin feints, but only when the talk's about the Sharingan.

Genjutsu - countered by Bunshin
Amaterasu - countered by Bunshin

Itachi can also use Bunshin. Does this mean that he counters Tobirama's Jutsu with Bunshin as well?

It's called Bunshin feint for a reason. The opponent won't react to Genjutsu or Amaterasu using Bunshin. Bunshin can act as a feint. Kakahsi used a clone feint to avoid the Genjutsu. Doesn't mean it's a counter. Otherwise a Bunshin would always be the answer to overpowered techniques, no matter Genjutsu, Amaterasu, Jinton, Gudou-Dama, Hiraishin. Clone feint is clone feint.

Tell me again, what 3T Genjutsu that Tobirama can't react to, when he is one of the most skilled sensors, vastly experienced in fighting the Uchiha, and acknowledged in the Sharingan's prowess?

His sensing isn't "constant" is it (legitimately asking you, I've heard things like they have to go into a sort of sensing mode)? Because if it isn't, I don't think he would even think of trying to check for disturbances, as Itachi's genjutsu, even at 3T, can simulate reality so that his opponent wouldn't otherwise notice that they've been placed in one.

And even if he checks for Genjutsu at random intervals, there's no guarantee he'll catch it quickly enough.

Where is the evidence for his sensory isn't passive? Also, where is the feat that Itachi can manipulate the reality of his 3T Genjuts?

 

[OnPoint]

We don't need to have long detail about it. We know Uchiha are naturally gifted in Genjutsu, and a proof is when Konoha's government speculated Uchiha might have controlled Kurama to attack Konoha. Fun fact, Uchiha from the Warring State Era > Uchiha decades after Konoha's foundation.

Itachi's skill in Genjutsu far surpasses that of any of these unnamed Uchiha. Which is why they remain unnamed.

A Chunin Genjutsu rank that Naruto could temporarily resist, does not pose a threat to Tobirama. A Chunin Genjutsu rank that Sakura and Chiyo broke does not pose a threat to Tobirama.

Mate. I don't even like Itachi. But you are chatting the most shit right here. Of course these illusions pose a threat to Tobirama. They give Itachi the chance to take the fight to Nidaime, whilst the latter is recognizing, and subsequently overcoming, what are basic techniques to Itachi. It takes so little effort on Itachi's part to construct these illusions. He's never actually wanted to kill Naruto or Sakura.

Throwing Tobirama off his scent, even if only for a few short moments, is such an advantage.

 

[Bronze]

Itachi's skill in Genjutsu far surpasses that of any of these unnamed Uchiha. Which is why they remain unnamed.

You didn't understand the point. It does not matter how skilled Itachi is in Genjutsu, what matters is how Tobirama will create strategies to fight his Genjutsu. And 3T Itachi's Genjutsu do not far surpass.

Mate. I don't even like Itachi. But you are chatting the most shit right here. Of course these illusions pose a threat to Tobirama. They give Itachi the chance to take the fight to Nidaime, whilst the latter is recognizing, and subsequently overcoming, what are basic techniques to Itachi. It takes so little effort on Itachi's part to construct these illusions. Throwing Tobirama off his scent, even if only for a few short moments, is such an advantage.

Tobirama isn't one of my favourites either, so lol. Again, that Genjutsu is never going give any difficult time for Tobirama to sense his Chakra Flow, disturb it. Just like how it didn't do any of your premise against the likes of Sakura and Chiyo, who do not compare to Tobirama. If anything, you're the chatting the most silly shit while overestimating a C-rank Genjutsu, and underrating Tobirama's experience and strategies in fighting a 3T Genjutsu.

 

[Magatsu Izanagi]

Where is the evidence for his sensory isn't passive? Also, where is the feat that Itachi can manipulate the reality of his 3T Genjuts?

Don't know for sure about the sensing, which is why I asked you. I remembered reading something to the contrary regarding Minato, so I wondered if it applied to Tobirama.

Anyways, regarding 3T Genjutsu, he controls the senses of his opponents (sight, smell, hearing, etc), so he's simulating reality. Not like Tsukuyomi where he bends time/space of course, but it's still reality simulation. Look over the Deidara fight, he thinks it's reality where Itachi is covered in his clay, but he's actually about to blow himself up.

 

[Zealous Sparks]

Since there is a water source nearby, if Blaze Release is correct in saying the water barrier he can produce is similar to Suijinheki (honestly can't remember), then I'd say that's a plausible counter to the Gojo explosions, considering the water should be abundant enough to cover the AoE and tank the damage. He can then disable the "fodder" Edo (assuming they have mediocre skills/reactions) upon their regeneration via throwing the Sealing tags, which he should have no problem doing due to his proficiency with kunai/shuriken.

As for dealing with Tobirama himself, I don't see why Itachi can't keep up with him in CQC or otherwise, using both his Shunshin and Sharingan precog to match his base speed. He should also be able to counter Tobirama's Suiton techs up to a certain level via his own Suiton proficiency with the help of Sharingan, something similar to what Kakashi did against Zabuza

You must be registered for see links

As Strict said, Crow Clones take up less chakra than regular Bunshin due to the fact that they use crows as the medium, so that should at least balance it out between Tobirama's own clones.

The Suiton attack that Itachi used was not a Water Wall; Kakashi was the one that used that technique [

You must be registered for see links

]. That's not to say that Itachi couldn't have copied the technique from Kakashi. Even so, I doubt a basic Water Wall jutsu will provide much defense against the blast radius of Gojō Kibaku Fuda [

You must be registered for see links

] which was several times larger than Gamakichi.

I still think Itachi wins. I see no reason why Itachi couldn't use a paralysis genjutsu on Tobirama's Edos as Itachi himself was caught in one while an Edo. The Gojō Kibaku Fuda requires the Reanimation to produce the paper for the tags from its body. Tobirama physically reached into his body and pulled out the tags [

You must be registered for see links

]. If the movement of the ETs is restricted by a genjutsu, the explosions may not be able to be activated while in effect giving Itachi the opportunity to use the seals. He could also come in close with his exploding clones [

You must be registered for see links

], and place the seal tags while they are regenerating.

Itachi should be able to match Tobirama in close combat. He was able to match KCM Naruto in taijutsu and was able to react to an attack from Bee from behind while still fighting with Naruto [

You must be registered for see links

].

Both Itachi and Tobirama have access to clones, but Itachi has both his Crow Clones and Exploding Clones as well as Kage Bunshin. Both fighters are extremely intelligent. The only advantage Tobirama has is that he likely has larger chakra reserves than Itachi, but Itachi won't have to expend as much chakra as he isn't using MS.

 

[Bronze]

Don't know for sure about the sensing, which is why I asked you. I remembered reading something to the contrary regarding Minato, so I wondered if it applied to Tobirama.

Anyways, regarding 3T Genjutsu, he controls the senses of his opponents (sight, smell, hearing, etc), so he's simulating reality. Not like Tsukuyomi where he bends time/space of course, but it's still reality simulation. Look over the Deidara fight, he thinks it's reality where Itachi is covered in his clay, but he's actually about to blow himself up.

We don't know that for sure, but I can't assume to be applicable for Tobirama.

I went on the depth of Tobirama's experience and knowledge of fighting Uchiha, when he fought the likes of Izuna and Madara. And every 3T Genjutsu Itachi showed will surely not work on Tobirama before he senses his Flow of Chakra under the effect of Genjutsu, and disturbs it.

Like I said, I don't want to get involved in big discussion, so this is my last post.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Tobirama low difficulty.

So wait no FTG or MS? Tobirama shits. Clones engage Itachi in cqc and they rape the man while Tobirama sit back with the smirk he made against Hiruzen. ​