Itachi vs. Kakashi (without sharingan)

[ajpn920]

Itachi will murder kakashi w/ sharingan but w/o sharingan Kakashi has the advantage. Itachi's genjutsu shown so far in the series w/o the help of the sharingan are the dusk crow and ephemeral w/c are all short range (0-5m). I don't think kakashi will fall for any normal genjutsu. Kakashi with high diff...

 

[Blaze Release]

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Nice post +rep even if i'm not completely agree.

Without sharingan, Itachi's genjutsu isn't as strong than with sharingan.In the manga he used only 2 genjutsus (crow,ephemerak) without sharingan.He used 4 times his sharingan genjutsu,and it worked on everyone except not on Kakashi.Deidara ,Orochimaru and Kurenai.Some people dare to say that even without mangekyou Itachi would beat Orochimaru.This is of course wrong.Itachi said it to Orochimaru "you can't win against these eyes".


Now that Itachi can only use what he showed in the manga ,Kakashi without sharingan will not be affected but these crow and ephemeral genjutsu level.
He's largelly skilled to know about genjutsus, he has a knowledge about genjutsu long time ago.

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He did similar genjutsu to Sakura without Sharingan in first chapters .As you can see he need keep stay with ram hand seal to use genjutsu.

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Naruto who was reputed for weak with genjutsu , he imediatelly knew that it was genjutsu , itachi had to use 2 genjutsu and still Natuto was near to despell it himself.

I noticed something, when Itachi prepare his genjutsu without sharigan he has to perform a hand seal and keep the Ram seal for a moment (just like Kakashi when he used it against Sakura). I believe that it would be easier for Kakashi compared to visual genjutsus.

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Kakashi's clone knew that itachi prepared a genjutsu even before that he got eye contact ." goukakyuu...but something been"

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He just let it happen since it's just a clone,itachi 30% was already condamned.Even if Kakashi didn't have the sharingan,Itachi would have still fail since it's just a clone.

Sharingan isn't needed for Kakashi to win against Itachi without sharingan.Kakashi use most elemental than regular clones.
There is no way for itachi to detect it.raiton clone cost a few chakra compared to Shadow clone.Let's says it was a raiton clone.
Itachi get paralysed and electrocuted, and he would spend his chakra for nothing since it's a raiton clone.


We know that Itachi has low stanima,A kakashi without sharingan would have a big advantage uppon him.His 2 genjutsu, katon and suiton isn't enough , now that Kakashi know about what Itachi has.Itachi has no choice to use the same jutsus again, but i don't beleive that the same jutsus will works against Kakashi.


As i said ,in a 1vs1 fight Kakashi can trick him with a raiton clone.It consume few chakra,i don't remember any failed clone strategy from kakashi.Itachi without Sharingan will get trouble in front of the versality of Kakashi who will gain more stanima without sharingan.
Also seem to forget that this was a 50% kakashi clone .50% kakashi clone knew in advance that it was a genjutsu before the eye contact .Now even if Itachi was at 100% .Kakashi could trick if it was a raiton kage bunshin instead of a shadow clone.

Kakashi part 1 ( 435 chapters ago) coulnd't follow itachi's handseal?
He proved the contrary ,i'm not basing of his words,i'm basing to his actions.There is nowhere kakashi saying the word hand seals.
Kakashi noticed his feint with kunai and hardly saw that he used a suiton,otherwize he'd not use suiton too.
It was almost taijutsu range 'close range),it's rare that a fight start in this condition.
Despite the few time kakashi had to react (close range), he was still able to block itachi's suiton with a suiton , prepare a suiton clone, and finally know that Itachi was a clone to save kurenai.It's a bit a lot for someone who is supossed to not barelly see Itachi's movement isn't it?
Even an Itachi with sharingan coulnd't trick kakashi,his victory was clearly due to his mangekyou.in this rare case close range fight (dialog/interrogation context) Itachi coulnd't touch Kakashi with his suiton.
There is no chance that he does it in middle range.


Kakashi can use multiple of Jutsus without his sharingan,he has nin-ken dogs .I'm not even sure how Itachi could handle it when he we know that he barelly avoid Kakashi's clone's upercut in their 2nd fight.Now without sharingan ,he'll have 8 dogs under on him.
Not to mension all Kakashi's other's jutsu like his raiju hashiri which he can do without handseal , extend and control its trajectory.He can use rasengan without his sharingan.raikiri can be countered because it's an assassin jutsu the users have to run straight line with incredible speed.It's not the only way to use it, for exemple in a taijutsu battle it can be very usefull.
Also People forget that Sasuke used his chidori without his sharingan when he confronted Naruto.

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Itachi without Sharingan will not only be limited to predict movement but he will only be able to use jutsus that Kakashi know already ( suiton, katon, 2 genjutsus),there is no need of sharingan against him.
In close range maybe Itachi would have a chance to surprise a Kakashi without sharingan but it's pretty rare that there is
ninjutsu exchange in that range .

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As i said before, if Kakashi couln't read his handseals,how he come to know that he used a suiton jutsu and countered it with a suiton as well ?
He knew that kunais was a feint, i hope you realize that it's not a little suiton wave that will block the metalic kunais.

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As i said you're refeering to Kakashi's words, i'm refeering to his action .

actions > words
It's clearly shows that Kakashi could block itachi's attack even at close range,in middle range it's not possible for Itachi.

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in midle range there

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Yes it's been said that even if you can see movements with the sharigan if you cannot react in time,its pointless being able to see it.There you are forgeting something important, not only both Itachi and Kakashi will
not be able to predict other's movements but Kakashi has a non negleagable advantages there.
The gates , yes Kakashi can open at least 1 gate .

Databook is clear :



Kakashi can take an advantages in taijutsu with gates.Not to mension his speed improvement during the war.he could handle bijuu v2 while Naruto and Bee was barelly able to avoid their speed and attacks.

Both without restriction,Itachi win but both without Sharingan,Kakashi win.

I just skim read your post and + repped you, but after taking my time to read it properly its actually rigged with mistakes that if i was to take my time with your post, ill take too long, also there are bigger fish to fry in EliteKakashi xd. I will however summarise what ill say to you in a few lines. First of all EliteKakashi and i were debating sharigan kakashi vs itachi without the shairgan, because its pretty clear who would win if both dont have the sharigan and that is itachi and EliteKakashi has already acknowledged this, therefore im further putting itachi at the disadvantage and giving kakashi the advantage.
Now youve named quiet a lot of techniques that kakashi can use and i agree thatif both dont have the shairgan kakashi's would have the chakra advantage than when he has the sharigan therefore he would be able to produce the many ninjutsu's you claim he can.

What you fail to get is that both without the sharigan, would make life harder for kakashi and infact the fight could end before kakashi uses all the jutsu's youve named. You seem to know that itachi uses genjutsu regardless and ill be basing my argument on the genjutsu he has used thus far without the sharigan. Now itachi's intelligent allowed him to cast genjutsu by pointing a finger at naruto. That genjutsu was so real that it copied the exact environment and the stance between itachi and kakashi, but also the gap between sakura, chiyo and naruto;

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Kakashi without the sharigan would be caught off guard easily with that genjutsu, whilst he trying to figure out whether he is indeed in a genjutsu or whether its real life.

Its only after itachi started to hover and burst into crows did naruto figure out that he has been caught, before you say kakashi si smarter than naruto, let me remind you that first of all nobody is immune to genjutsu. Secondly that genjutsu was so realistic if would fool anybody;

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People also seem to forget that genjutsu in the real world takes less than a second whether its tsukuyomi or a normal genjutsu. Its in the genjutsu that the user thinks its forever. Allow me to enlighten you;

Naruto in real life hasnt moved an inch and time has barely gone by from the time he was in that genjutsu;

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In the genjutsu it may seem like long, but in the real world time has hardly passed by.

Thats all ill say to your post. I can go in detail and list all the mistakes youve made, maybe ill touch upon them in EliteKakashi's post. Anyway as you can see if both dont have sharigan, and itachi was to catch kakashi in genjutsu which he can/will all of kakashi's ninjutsu's that youve mentioned are meaningless if he still hasnt figured out that he is a genjutsu due to its realism and with his mind trapped in that illusion he is vulnerable to any attack by kakashi.

At the highlighted part you are wrong. The reasons kakashi said what he said was because he was suspicious about the whole fight and said what he said in the middle of the grand fire ball technique. Its after the fight did they found out that it was a clone and kakashi established further on what he though;

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It had nothing to do with what you said U_U

Just to make clear, I haven't read Itachi49's post, although I did notice it was a pretty lengthy one, so if I repeat anything he's said, my apologies.

No problem

That tactic was only used to counter tsukyomi, and it's obviously a needed tactic given if Kakashi were to get caught in it, he would be done for. Itachi wouldn't have tsukyomi without his sharingan, though. And I'm not sure Itachi has a high enough level genjutsu to trap Kakashi that doesn't involve the sharingan. Has Itachi ever done anything not related to the sharingan as far as genjutsu goes outside of that finger genjutsu he used on Naruto? There was that crow genjutsu he used, but I'm not sure that's gonna be effective on Kakashi either given his sharingan. I understand Itachi has a high ranking in genjutsu, but what real genjutsu abilities does he have without the sharingan?

He used the crow genjutsu during team kakashi's retrieval of sasuke when naruto fan into. He used another one previously when he was a 30% clone and with this genjutsu he copied to location flawlessly before he started to burst into crows which give it, even naruto finally realised that it was genjutsu.

You also seem to forget that recently he has used crow summonings to either blind his opponent or keep them distracted;

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Such little hindrance to his opponent could prove vital for somebody with a speed and handseal speed or 5/5.

If you add the fact the he can disperse into crows at anytime, this could leave kakashi just as helpless as sharigan sasuke, who guess what had an exclamation mark all over his face. Ignore the fact that his ms (tsukuyomi) and focus on the fact that if he was to disperse and then use his great shunshin like he did against sharigan sasuke to gain ground he can use taijutsu, then disperse again ;

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No one has been able to spot Kakashi's kage bunshins to date, I don't think it matters how many times it's done, cause you can't tell the difference, even with the byakugan of if it's the real one or not. Yeah, obviously attacking him would work, but that could also be playing in to Kakashi's hands as well, on the chance it could be a raiton kage bunshin or whatever.

It doesnt matter how many times its done because itachi with high intelligence should be aware of such strategy. You also seem to forget one great thing about the kage bunshin, therefore ill remind you;

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Not only can he not hold it for long, it divides the little chakra he has left. He used this strategy because he had naruto as back up and even said it here;

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If you add the fact that he can throw multiply kunai's whilst weaving handseals;

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If you add the fact that he is by far the only ninja who has the most impressive feats with shurikens/kunai's kakashi's clones would do very little in this fight;

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Seem to forget that itachi aswell can use clones. In his case crow clones;

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The only problem with this "advantage" for Itachi is the fact that Kakashi knows he's a katon and suiton(though he's only ever used 1 suiton jutsu) user. He knows what to be prepared for when it comes to Itachi. And while it's very true that Kakashi may not be able to copy/counter, he can very much so evade as he proved vs 30% Itachi( I know it was 30%, but the jutsu is still the same).

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Kakashi might know itachi is a katon and suiton user but with the advantage itachi has due to his handspeed, kakashi has to practically guess which element he is about to use in order to counter accordingly, also itachi has shwon us more than 1 suiton element. Talking about itachi's suiton prowess and kakashi's ability to counter this is what ill say. We all know about the hidden in mist technique, which is a D rank water technique;

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. We know that itachi is a suiton user and with this should be able to use the hidden mist technique. Now the question is why would he use such a technique against sharigajn kakashi?. Im sure you know what the hidden mist does to a doujutsu user.

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Anyway im no hypocrite. I always say we should only go by techniques a ninja has shown in the manga therefore itachi doesnt have it.

So lets say itachi was to use a katon jutsu, no different to kakuzu;

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And lets say kakashi counters with a suiton;

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Notice that the steam a suiton creates when it counters a katon is very similar to the hidden mist technique, in the sense that it blocks the sharigans sight with the steam/mist and with that kakashi was vulnerable in the air;

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Anyway you seem t forget that not only will kakashi not be able to read and counter itachi's ninjutsu's with his sharigan, he also wouldnt be able to know whether itachi's clones, either a crow clone or a water clone is the real one. Allow me to refresh your memory. In part one, he used a water clone, Know you might say that he used the water source close to him and its true, but that doesnt mean that he cannot create a water clone;

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His handseals was so fast that kurenai even commented and even questioned whether that clone was a shadow clone

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Its only after that clone exloded did we know that it was a water clone

After kakashi with a stamina advantage of 0.5 with the sharigan which drains his stamina was able to create a water clone without any source of water;

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The Lee vs Sasuke example would be a good one if A. Sasuke's sharingan then was as good as Kakashi's now and if B. the gap between Sasuke and Lee in taijutsu/speed was the same as it is between Itachi and Kakashi. Sasuke was a 3 in speed and 2.5 in taijutsu compared to Lee's 4 and 3.5 respectively. Kakashi and Itachi are, as you said, the same other than a .5 difference in speed. Which Kakashi's sharingan, in this case, makes up for, IMO.

I don't think Itachi has a reflex advantage when you take away his sharingan and allow Kakashi to keep his, either.

Even if sasuke's was as good in part 1 as it is in part 2, even if he can see it but cannot react to it, its pointless.

I go on inter further detail and prove to you that even with the sharigan kakashi's taijustu is inferior to itachi's. Anyway we saw sharigan sasuke have a brief taijutsu fight with itachi in genjutsu and even though that might not be plausible we saw how itachi easily manhandled him, i will however leave that out.

Lets say both are equal in taijutsu, but due to kakashu's sharigan and itachi's speed it proves even. Itachi was noted to be able to weave handseals whilst having a shuriken duel with sasuke. With that handseal was able to create a clone;

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If in the middle of a taijutsu fight was he able to weave handseals (which i have no doubt he can due to his handspeed being the fastest in the series) and with that create a clone. What if the clone was then able to through kunai's;

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With this gets the numeric advantage. So kakashi is basically having a taijutsu duel with somebody who's handspeed are so fast they can weave ninjutsu during a shuriken duel. If he creates a clone and attacks with kunai's kakashi has no counter for this. His handspeed (even though he also gets a 5/5 in the databook doesnt rival itachi's) isnt as fast to create ninjutsu whilst countering itachi in a taijutsu fight, like how itachi can. With this advantage to itachi how would kakashi react if the clone had thrown several kunai's towards him?. Sasuke due to some of his snake technique's not requring handseals was able to counter it;

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Kakashi cannot

 

[Ansh]

itachi stands no chance he has onli fireball justsu and taijutsu without mangekyo kakashi's only kamui is dependent on sharingan

 

[The Eye]

w/o a sharigan? kakashi ftw

 

[Paintachi]

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I just skim read your post and + repped you, but after taking my time to read it properly its actually rigged with mistakes that if i was to take my time with your post, ill take too long, also there are bigger fish to fry in EliteKakashi xd. I will however summarise what ill say to you in a few lines. First of all EliteKakashi and i were debating sharigan kakashi vs itachi without the shairgan, because its pretty clear who would win if both dont have the sharigan and that is itachi and EliteKakashi has already acknowledged this, therefore im further putting itachi at the disadvantage and giving kakashi the advantage.
Now youve named quiet a lot of techniques that kakashi can use and i agree thatif both dont have the shairgan kakashi's would have the chakra advantage than when he has the sharigan therefore he would be able to produce the many ninjutsu's you claim he can.

What you fail to get is that both without the sharigan, would make life harder for kakashi and infact the fight could end before kakashi uses all the jutsu's youve named. You seem to know that itachi uses genjutsu regardless and ill be basing my argument on the genjutsu he has used thus far without the sharigan. Now itachi's intelligent allowed him to cast genjutsu by pointing a finger at naruto. That genjutsu was so real that it copied the exact environment and the stance between itachi and kakashi, but also the gap between sakura, chiyo and naruto;

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Kakashi without the sharigan would be caught off guard easily with that genjutsu, whilst he trying to figure out whether he is indeed in a genjutsu or whether its real life.

Its only after itachi started to hover and burst into crows did naruto figure out that he has been caught, before you say kakashi si smarter than naruto, let me remind you that first of all nobody is immune to genjutsu. Secondly that genjutsu was so realistic if would fool anybody;

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People also seem to forget that genjutsu in the real world takes less than a second whether its tsukuyomi or a normal genjutsu. Its in the genjutsu that the user thinks its forever. Allow me to enlighten you;

Naruto in real life hasnt moved an inch and time has barely gone by from the time he was in that genjutsu;

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In the genjutsu it may seem like long, but in the real world time has hardly passed by.

Thats all ill say to your post. I can go in detail and list all the mistakes youve made, maybe ill touch upon them in EliteKakashi's post. Anyway as you can see if both dont have sharigan, and itachi was to catch kakashi in genjutsu which he can/will all of kakashi's ninjutsu's that youve mentioned are meaningless if he still hasnt figured out that he is a genjutsu due to its realism and with his mind trapped in that illusion he is vulnerable to any attack by kakashi.

At the highlighted part you are wrong. The reasons kakashi said what he said was because he was suspicious about the whole fight and said what he said in the middle of the grand fire ball technique. Its after the fight did they found out that it was a clone and kakashi established further on what he though;

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It had nothing to do with what you said U_U



No problem




He used the crow genjutsu during team kakashi's retrieval of sasuke when naruto fan into. He used another one previously when he was a 30% clone and with this genjutsu he copied to location flawlessly before he started to burst into crows which give it, even naruto finally realised that it was genjutsu.

You also seem to forget that recently he has used crow summonings to either blind his opponent or keep them distracted;

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Such little hindrance to his opponent could prove vital for somebody with a speed and handseal speed or 5/5.

If you add the fact the he can disperse into crows at anytime, this could leave kakashi just as helpless as sharigan sasuke, who guess what had an exclamation mark all over his face. Ignore the fact that his ms (tsukuyomi) and focus on the fact that if he was to disperse and then use his great shunshin like he did against sharigan sasuke to gain ground he can use taijutsu, then disperse again ;

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It doesnt matter how many times its done because itachi with high intelligence should be aware of such strategy. You also seem to forget one great thing about the kage bunshin, therefore ill remind you;

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Not only can he not hold it for long, it divides the little chakra he has left. He used this strategy because he had naruto as back up and even said it here;

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If you add the fact that he can throw multiply kunai's whilst weaving handseals;

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If you add the fact that he is by far the only ninja who has the most impressive feats with shurikens/kunai's kakashi's clones would do very little in this fight;

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Seem to forget that itachi aswell can use clones. In his case crow clones;

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Kakashi might know itachi is a katon and suiton user but with the advantage itachi has due to his handspeed, kakashi has to practically guess which element he is about to use in order to counter accordingly, also itachi has shwon us more than 1 suiton element. Talking about itachi's suiton prowess and kakashi's ability to counter this is what ill say. We all know about the hidden in mist technique, which is a D rank water technique;

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. We know that itachi is a suiton user and with this should be able to use the hidden mist technique. Now the question is why would he use such a technique against sharigajn kakashi?. Im sure you know what the hidden mist does to a doujutsu user.

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Anyway im no hypocrite. I always say we should only go by techniques a ninja has shown in the manga therefore itachi doesnt have it.

So lets say itachi was to use a katon jutsu, no different to kakuzu;

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And lets say kakashi counters with a suiton;

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Notice that the steam a suiton creates when it counters a katon is very similar to the hidden mist technique, in the sense that it blocks the sharigans sight with the steam/mist and with that kakashi was vulnerable in the air;

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Anyway you seem t forget that not only will kakashi not be able to read and counter itachi's ninjutsu's with his sharigan, he also wouldnt be able to know whether itachi's clones, either a crow clone or a water clone is the real one. Allow me to refresh your memory. In part one, he used a water clone, Know you might say that he used the water source close to him and its true, but that doesnt mean that he cannot create a water clone;

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His handseals was so fast that kurenai even commented and even questioned whether that clone was a shadow clone

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Its only after that clone exloded did we know that it was a water clone

After kakashi with a stamina advantage of 0.5 with the sharigan which drains his stamina was able to create a water clone without any source of water;

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Even if sasuke's was as good in part 1 as it is in part 2, even if he can see it but cannot react to it, its pointless.

I go on inter further detail and prove to you that even with the sharigan kakashi's taijustu is inferior to itachi's. Anyway we saw sharigan sasuke have a brief taijutsu fight with itachi in genjutsu and even though that might not be plausible we saw how itachi easily manhandled him, i will however leave that out.

Lets say both are equal in taijutsu, but due to kakashu's sharigan and itachi's speed it proves even. Itachi was noted to be able to weave handseals whilst having a shuriken duel with sasuke. With that handseal was able to create a clone;

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If in the middle of a taijutsu fight was he able to weave handseals (which i have no doubt he can due to his handspeed being the fastest in the series) and with that create a clone. What if the clone was then able to through kunai's;

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With this gets the numeric advantage. So kakashi is basically having a taijutsu duel with somebody who's handspeed are so fast they can weave ninjutsu during a shuriken duel. If he creates a clone and attacks with kunai's kakashi has no counter for this. His handspeed (even though he also gets a 5/5 in the databook doesnt rival itachi's) isnt as fast to create ninjutsu whilst countering itachi in a taijutsu fight, like how itachi can. With this advantage to itachi how would kakashi react if the clone had thrown several kunai's towards him?. Sasuke due to some of his snake technique's not requring handseals was able to counter it;

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Kakashi cannot

:sy:

 

[evilspirit]

itachi definitely

 

[Jayaraman MinatoItachi]

I think kakashi will win both are equal actually but kakashi knows more than 1000 techniques and he has more experience than itachi. even kakashi was in anbu. I am itachi's fan saying this. This is for some A-Holes who might say i am a fanboy. But with sharingan kakashi will stand no chance against itachi. no one can deny it.

 

[KaitoDShion]

Kakashi will win because of his skills and he owns bot lightning and fire, he will be able to escape of Itachi's genjustu he will be owning itachi

 

[khaydz5]

kakashi=itachi both without sharingan.

itachi might be slightly faster than kakashi but without itachi's sharingan, he wont be able to keep up aswell with kakashi's techniques.

 

[Saiyan Kammy]

Itachi takes this. He's faster he's Smarter he's more Skillfull. The only thing Kakashi beats Itachi on is Techniques but that won't pull him through the fight. Itachi would Blitz Kakashi with just a Kunai and some Shurikens end off. people who said Kakashi would win are idiots.

 

[devilking123]

but Kakashi have plenty of Jutsu in his sleeves.

because of the sharingan

 

[asad70ful]

Justify fairy.... Because I do think that Kakashi is going to win this.

Edit: oops.. I mean both without sharingan.

Edit 2: double oops.. I really do think Itachi will win if they fight. Because he can use his yata mirro and that sword without susano O.O (yeah, i never knew it before. Bt some have prooved now).

he also cant use genjutsu,bcoz of all of itachi genjutsu was visual
so let me compare both
kakashi was chunin at 7,jounin at 13 anbu at 16,he is genius,cr8ed his own jutsu named as chidor,kakashi has 3 elements,

itachi just like kakashi chunin at 6 jounin at 13 and anbu at 15,then he killed his family and left village,itachi has 2 elements(or i think only one,dont knw)
itachi is also genius like kakashi

i think this is a draw(without sharingan)
the person who will make first mistake will be dead,this is battle btw (dont make mistake)
first mistake will be there last in this battle

Im pretty sure Itachi would win this battle espically with all the justus he can do and back in the older naruto he defeated Kakashi with a Genjustsu

man itachi all genjutsu was visual,he cant use genjustu without sharingan

 

[razzwal]

Guys Kakashi is useless without his sharingan! Plenty of jutsus he hids under his sleeves are all copied ....he can't win the battle only with raikiri!
Itachi is very fast and experienced Ninja...he'll win !:shrug:xd

 

[addiepa]

No matter how u see it.... Kakashi beter dan itachi...i.e witout sharingan of course...,....

 

[Doraff]

To be completely honest here, this is one of those fights that would have to actually happen in order to determine who wins. Mainly because there are too many things to take into account.

 

[TonyMutu]

Kakashi is the inferior opponent how ever you look at it.
Give kakashi the sharigan and take the sharigan away from itachi, itachi will still beat him. He is superior to kakashi in almost every department.

Tbh there is only a handful of opponents that you should make a vs thread concerning itachi that i would actually respond to with full attention. Kakashi isnt one of them

Itachi without sharingan is nothing. Overall, Itachi wins with high difficulty, but both without the sharingan Kakashi is better.

 

[joekyure]

Well Kakashi's Raikiri is useless without the help of the sharingan right? Soo obviously Raikiri is out of the question.. Itachi wins.. Kakashi still does have a few secrets in his bag of jutsus.. but as stated somewhere before.. Kakashi doesn't have the chakra pool Itachi does