itachi is still evil

[Reborn]

i see that this discussion had came to a dead end so i am going to ask you a simple question
what would naruto or jiraiaya or the younger son of the sage would of done or even the past hokages ?
i doubt they would do the same thing what has been then represents the uchiha's principles they should of been better then them and only kill who planned to kill

Well given that Shodaime and Nidaime were Senju, they probably would have done the same thing, also their teachings were passed down to Hiruzen, who was the on who had final say in the matter.

Jiraiya had what it took to make the hard decisions, so I agree that he would've agreed to this solution, I agree that the younger son would've done the same thing. In the two son's case, I belive the youngest would've killed his brother, could he have, and saved his brother, and the world from a life long disease known as hatred, that's the difference in that case.

Naruto is still a child. Despite him being one of my favorite characters, he needs to grow up. You see his resolve with Sasuke and how it's turning out right? Sasuke has fallen down a road into complete and utter darkness, yet Naruto still refused to kill him. Now Naruto's even compromised a little. He has agreed to kill Sasuke should he try to harm Konoha, at the cost of his life. Naruto has agreed to protect Konoha and also kill Sasuke, but in turn plans to die in the end. Do you know what that means? It means in a case like this Naruto can only go through with it if he dies in the end, because it's not his character but he's showing that he can move past that for the sake of Konoha, and is going to sacrifice himself.

You want to want to compare Naruto and Itachi, Itachi and Naruto are greatly similar. Itachi swallowed his heart and his pacifism to kill his clan to prevent civil war, however he left his younger brother alive, and painted himself as a monster, so one day Sasuke would kill him and restore a good name to the Uchihas. You ask how is this the same as Naruto?

Naruto plans to fight Sasuke, should he return to harm Konoha and Naruto has said that both of them will die, meaning Naruto plans to kill Sasuke, and also die at Sasuke's hand, because Naruto has grown a bit and he knows that this must be done for the village. He's abandoing his morals to do what is right for the village but he's also sacrificing himself as well. Itachi sacrificed himself the same, however he went about it in a different way and Itachi's way simply didn't work...Naruto resolves to kill and be killed/die in the end. Itachi resolved to kill and be killed/die in the end. If you push Naruto some years forward he would've done the same thing.

Now here's you're problem with killing only the adults of the oporation. Kill the adults, leave the kids behind, what does that do (here's a hint, look how it already turned out, do you really want more Sasukes running around, planning on doing the same exact thing, once they get older, as their predicessors did?) Neccissary sacrifices, I would bet that anybody truely dedicated to Konoha or their village would have done this. I would even go on to say Minato, had he still been alive and found out about the coup, that he would've ordered the same exact thing as Hiruzen.

 

[Jupiter]

naahhh

 

['Kurapika]

Well given that Shodaime and Nidaime were Senju, they probably would have done the same thing, also their teachings were passed down to Hiruzen, who was the on who had final say in the matter.

Jiraiya had what it took to make the hard decisions, so I agree that he would've agreed to this solution, I agree that the younger son would've done the same thing. In the two son's case, I belive the youngest would've killed his brother, could he have, and saved his brother, and the world from a life long disease known as hatred, that's the difference in that case.

Naruto is still a child. Despite him being one of my favorite characters, he needs to grow up. You see his resolve with Sasuke and how it's turning out right? Sasuke has fallen down a road into complete and utter darkness, yet Naruto still refused to kill him. Now Naruto's even compromised a little. He has agreed to kill Sasuke should he try to harm Konoha, at the cost of his life. Naruto has agreed to protect Konoha and also kill Sasuke, but in turn plans to die in the end. Do you know what that means? It means in a case like this Naruto can only go through with it if he dies in the end, because it's not his character but he's showing that he can move past that for the sake of Konoha, and is going to sacrifice himself.

You want to want to compare Naruto and Itachi, Itachi and Naruto are greatly similar. Itachi swallowed his heart and his pacifism to kill his clan to prevent civil war, however he left his younger brother alive, and painted himself as a monster, so one day Sasuke would kill him and restore a good name to the Uchihas. You ask how is this the same as Naruto?

Naruto plans to fight Sasuke, should he return to harm Konoha and Naruto has said that both of them will die, meaning Naruto plans to kill Sasuke, and also die at Sasuke's hand, because Naruto has grown a bit and he knows that this must be done for the village. He's abandoing his morals to do what is right for the village but he's also sacrificing himself as well. Itachi sacrificed himself the same, however he went about it in a different way and Itachi's way simply didn't work...Naruto resolves to kill and be killed/die in the end. Itachi resolved to kill and be killed/die in the end. If you push Naruto some years forward he would've done the same thing.

Now here's you're problem with killing only the adults of the oporation. Kill the adults, leave the kids behind, what does that do (here's a hint, look how it already turned out, do you really want more Sasukes running around, planning on doing the same exact thing, once they get older, as their predicessors did?) Neccissary sacrifices, I would bet that anybody truely dedicated to Konoha or their village would have done this. I would even go on to say Minato, had he still been alive and found out about the coup, that he would've ordered the same exact thing as Hiruzen.

it's now becoming more a respective thing and i can argue more but i can't really prove any thing
but didn't nartu find hard to believe that kanoha agreed to the killing of the uchiha when madara told him he even asked itachi if it was true that can only mean that he finds it a wrong thing to do , and this is after he said he was going to kill sasuke , you can't kill people for thing that they might do , keep the one that mean no harm and when some ask for revenge kill them , what you are saying is exactly what the older brother thought
"that peace is to be forced by power"

 

[Reborn]

it's now becoming more a respective thing and i can argue more but i can't really prove any thing
but didn't nartu find hard to believe that kanoha agreed to the killing of the uchiha when madara told him he even asked itachi if it was true that can only mean that he finds it a wrong thing to do , and this is after he said he was going to kill sasuke , you can't kill people for thing that they might do , keep the one that mean no harm and when some ask for revenge kill them , what you are saying is exactly what the older brother thought
"that peace is to be forced by power"

First when he was told by Madara he didn't believe Sandaime would order something like that (before he met up with Sasuke). That doesn't mean he believed it was wrong, he just didn't belive it was something Sandaime would do. He asked Itachi if it was true because Madara's a liar and can't really be trusted (gotta hear it from the horses mouth).

What I'm saying, and what Itachi did, is not the same the Uchiha ancestor, "peace by force" There's a ballence to everything, the ballence must be maintained. They weren't punishing the Uchihas for what they "Might have done" but more of what they were "Going to do" Itachi was a double agent. His parents thought he was working for them, told them all their secrets, how things were going to be executed, and Itachi's ears were that of Sandaime's. This plan was going to happen regardless.

Now back to the matter of saying peace through force. The Uchiha ancestors, method was "his way or the high way" meaning his vision of "peace through force" was the only way. He had no moderation, if they didn't agree with them he would take them out. Now I know that's how it sounds with Konoha doing the same exact thing, they didn't do that. Peace through compromise and understanding couldn't be reached through the stubborn ears of the Uchihas. If you try to reach compromise and it doesn't work, and someone conspires against you to hurt you and all those you care about around you. The only other option is self defense (which is what Konoha did). If you don't try and simply resolve to usrup power for yourself, through any means, then that means you're stubborn and close minded.

Senju clan ancestor=Love and understanding, but I won't let you harm my people
Uchiha clan ancestor=power and wrath, my way or the high way, say no even once and that's it, you're on the hit list.

That's what the Uchihas stand for. The Senju and Konoha stand for understanding and love, up until those they love are threatened. Fight and kill only if the first blow is dealt to you or your loved one.

 

[Avani]

Spoiler

Well given that Shodaime and Nidaime were Senju, they probably would have done the same thing, also their teachings were passed down to Hiruzen, who was the on who had final say in the matter.

Jiraiya had what it took to make the hard decisions, so I agree that he would've agreed to this solution, I agree that the younger son would've done the same thing. In the two son's case, I belive the youngest would've killed his brother, could he have, and saved his brother, and the world from a life long disease known as hatred, that's the difference in that case.

Naruto is still a child. Despite him being one of my favorite characters, he needs to grow up. You see his resolve with Sasuke and how it's turning out right? Sasuke has fallen down a road into complete and utter darkness, yet Naruto still refused to kill him. Now Naruto's even compromised a little. He has agreed to kill Sasuke should he try to harm Konoha, at the cost of his life. Naruto has agreed to protect Konoha and also kill Sasuke, but in turn plans to die in the end. Do you know what that means? It means in a case like this Naruto can only go through with it if he dies in the end, because it's not his character but he's showing that he can move past that for the sake of Konoha, and is going to sacrifice himself.

You want to want to compare Naruto and Itachi, Itachi and Naruto are greatly similar. Itachi swallowed his heart and his pacifism to kill his clan to prevent civil war, however he left his younger brother alive, and painted himself as a monster, so one day Sasuke would kill him and restore a good name to the Uchihas. You ask how is this the same as Naruto?

Naruto plans to fight Sasuke, should he return to harm Konoha and Naruto has said that both of them will die, meaning Naruto plans to kill Sasuke, and also die at Sasuke's hand, because Naruto has grown a bit and he knows that this must be done for the village. He's abandoing his morals to do what is right for the village but he's also sacrificing himself as well. Itachi sacrificed himself the same, however he went about it in a different way and Itachi's way simply didn't work...Naruto resolves to kill and be killed/die in the end. Itachi resolved to kill and be killed/die in the end. If you push Naruto some years forward he would've done the same thing.

Now here's you're problem with killing only the adults of the oporation. Kill the adults, leave the kids behind, what does that do (here's a hint, look how it already turned out, do you really want more Sasukes running around, planning on doing the same exact thing, once they get older, as their predicessors did?) Neccissary sacrifices, I would bet that anybody truely dedicated to Konoha or their village would have done this. I would even go on to say Minato, had he still been alive and found out about the coup, that he would've ordered the same exact thing as Hiruzen.

Spoiler

First when he was told by Madara he didn't believe Sandaime would order something like that (before he met up with Sasuke). That doesn't mean he believed it was wrong, he just didn't belive it was something Sandaime would do. He asked Itachi if it was true because Madara's a liar and can't really be trusted (gotta hear it from the horses mouth).

What I'm saying, and what Itachi did, is not the same the Uchiha ancestor, "peace by force" There's a ballence to everything, the ballence must be maintained. They weren't punishing the Uchihas for what they "Might have done" but more of what they were "Going to do" Itachi was a double agent. His parents thought he was working for them, told them all their secrets, how things were going to be executed, and Itachi's ears were that of Sandaime's. This plan was going to happen regardless.

Now back to the matter of saying peace through force. The Uchiha ancestors, method was "his way or the high way" meaning his vision of "peace through force" was the only way. He had no moderation, if they didn't agree with them he would take them out. Now I know that's how it sounds with Konoha doing the same exact thing, they didn't do that. Peace through compromise and understanding couldn't be reached through the stubborn ears of the Uchihas. If you try to reach compromise and it doesn't work, and someone conspires against you to hurt you and all those you care about around you. The only other option is self defense (which is what Konoha did). If you don't try and simply resolve to usrup power for yourself, through any means, then that means you're stubborn and close minded.

Senju clan ancestor=Love and understanding, but I won't let you harm my people
Uchiha clan ancestor=power and wrath, my way or the high way, say no even once and that's it, you're on the hit list.

That's what the Uchihas stand for. The Senju and Konoha stand for understanding and love, up until those they love are threatened. Fight and kill only if the first blow is dealt to you or your loved one.

I must spread rep again before repeating it for you.. so it reminas due.. I will go and thank a post by you I guess to make up for it.

 

[Reborn]

[/SPOILER]

[/SPOILER]

I must spread rep again before repetinging it for you.. so it reminas due.. I will go and thank a post by you I guess to make up for it.

Lol thanks (I released more fanfics, if you're interested in reading them)

And that's not necessary (see how I answered the question your name asks with that statement lol)

 

[BondedByBlood]

To go through all that for your little brother...proves that Itachi Uchiha is not evil one bit. He lived his whole life for Sasuke. How is that bad?

 

[Kinimaster]

i still think what itachi did is unforgivable if was in his situation i would try and talk both sides down and make peace or even stand aside and do nothing , but it's impossible to kill your dad and mom and all your tribe it's insane
and the uchiha had the right to have a hokage that's a uchiha , and to make sasuke so ****ed up like that , it's all itachi's fault , he is evil

but i still admire his cool personality :shrug:

You talk like they were on our world, but they are in a conflictive ninja world, things are different such as diplomacy and priorities. Itachi had no choice it was his last mission.

 

['Kurapika]

First when he was told by Madara he didn't believe Sandaime would order something like that (before he met up with Sasuke). That doesn't mean he believed it was wrong, he just didn't belive it was something Sandaime would do. He asked Itachi if it was true because Madara's a liar and can't really be trusted (gotta hear it from the horses mouth).

Senju clan ancestor=Love and understanding, but I won't let you harm my people
Uchiha clan ancestor=power and wrath, my way or the high way, say no even once and that's it, you're on the hit list.

That's what the Uchihas stand for. The Senju and Konoha stand for understanding and love, up until those they love are threatened. Fight and kill only if the first blow is dealt to you or your loved one.

i guess there was a reason he didn't believe sandaime would do something like that , my guess is he thought it was a bad thing to do especially since naruto admired the third hokage
and by the way it wasn't the hokage's call it was the elder's
and the uchiha ancestor didn't say or meant :
power and wrath, my way or the high way, say no even once and that's it, you're on the hit list
he said that peas is supposed to be forced by power , which means if you start a war against any one you get killed
but the senju ancestor thought of fighting hatred with love and that was probably what what kanoha should of done

 

[zatamaiko]

A clan killed rather then a new war is better.

 

[Reborn]

i guess there was a reason he didn't believe sandaime would do something like that , my guess is he thought it was a bad thing to do especially since naruto admired the third hokage
and by the way it wasn't the hokage's call it was the elder's
and the uchiha ancestor didn't say or meant :
power and wrath, my way or the high way, say no even once and that's it, you're on the hit list
he said that peas is supposed to be forced by power , which means if you start a war against any one you get killed
but the senju ancestor thought of fighting hatred with love and that was probably what what kanoha should of done

First thing, this is a feudal system, meaning there is a Lord, then their is a Vassel. The Daimyou is the Fedudal lord and the village leader/Kage is the Vassel, and everybody else are the kinghts. The Hokage has dominion over his village and has the final say in ALL matters. If Sandaime honestly didn't say for this happen, it wouldn't have happened. It was his call not the elders. Their position are advisors and, despite a leader listening to their advisors most of the time they don't have to. Sandaime made the final call to go through with this, not the elders.

The ancestor never said that but look at the behavior of the ancestor and the Uchihas as a result. They were so fixated on their method that they went after any who didn't agree with it. Uchiha ancestor tried to kill his brother becasue it wasn't his way, Madara tried to kill Hashirama because he didn't get the title of Hokage. The Uchihas rebelled because they didn't want to compromise. Things aren't said, but they're insinuated and you have to look beyond what is said out in the open, otherwise you're just looking, not reading.

Uchiha ancestor, and Uchihas had to have it their way. When it wasn't their way they got rid of everybody who wasn't on board with them because they couldn't accept any other method other then their own. If you study the series (which isn't so hard if you notice the patterns that are brought up constently like this one for instence) you'll be able to understand the mind set of the characters and everything. Uchiha had to have it their way because that was their mindset. Not stated but is the truth through observation. Look beyond what is said and observe the patterns

 

['Kurapika]

First thing, this is a feudal system, meaning there is a Lord, then their is a Vassel. The Daimyou is the Fedudal lord and the village leader/Kage is the Vassel, and everybody else are the kinghts. The Hokage has dominion over his village and has the final say in ALL matters. If Sandaime honestly didn't say for this happen, it wouldn't have happened. It was his call not the elders. Their position are advisors and, despite a leader listening to their advisors most of the time they don't have to. Sandaime made the final call to go through with this, not the elders.

The ancestor never said that but look at the behavior of the ancestor and the Uchihas as a result. They were so fixated on their method that they went after any who didn't agree with it. Uchiha ancestor tried to kill his brother becasue it wasn't his way, Madara tried to kill Hashirama because he didn't get the title of Hokage. The Uchihas rebelled because they didn't want to compromise. Things aren't said, but they're insinuated and you have to look beyond what is said out in the open, otherwise you're just looking, not reading.

Uchiha ancestor, and Uchihas had to have it their way. When it wasn't their way they got rid of everybody who wasn't on board with them because they couldn't accept any other method other then their own. If you study the series (which isn't so hard if you notice the patterns that are brought up constently like this one for instence) you'll be able to understand the mind set of the characters and everything. Uchiha had to have it their way because that was their mindset. Not stated but is the truth through observation. Look beyond what is said and observe the patterns

i suppose the elders were able to talk to the feudal lord . any way you are right but you are missing the point i said that the point is why naruto thought he wouldn't do it "as you your self said" and i said there must be a reason he thought he wouldn't do it since he thought the world of him

i'm not saying that what your saying is wrong i am just saying
naruto forgiven nagato after killing hinata cold bloodedly
he even forgiven the demond fox that was responsible for terrible life when he said he want to change him
and i don't think the senju ancester killed the uchiha ancestor when he tried to kill him his philosophy was all about meeting abuse with with kindness
but you keep telling me how bad the uchiha are , i say it's not a good enough reason

 

[Reborn]

i suppose the elders were able to talk to the feudal lord . any way you are right but you are missing the point i said that the point is why naruto thought he wouldn't do it "as you your self said" and i said there must be a reason he thought he wouldn't do it since he thought the world of him

i'm not saying that what your saying is wrong i am just saying
naruto forgiven nagato after killing hinata cold bloodedly
he even forgiven the demond fox that was responsible for terrible life when he said he want to change him
and i don't think the senju ancester killed the uchiha ancestor when he tried to kill him his philosophy was all about meeting abuse with with kindness
but you keep telling me how bad the uchiha are , i say it's not a good enough reason

Show proof, or how that could've been insinuated in the manga/anime before making blind accusations (not trying to be rude, it's just things can't be assume unless there were patterns or suggestions around certain things to suggest a certain thing, so that bolded statment can't really hold)

I'm not missing the point really. What is Naruto's real involvment in this argument, we're talking about Itachi being evil for assassinating his clan, and I am defending him saying that he was protecting not only Konoha but his clan's reputations and pride so that one day it could come back as an honorable clan, as it once was seen as. Naruto's personal feelings on the matter really don't account for the situation as he's a third party that doesn't really have much relivence, nor does, what anybody else may have done if they were in the Hokage seat. The fact is the situation was as it was. Hiruzen was Hokage and he had to swallow his peacful ways for the greater good of his people.

I never said that the Senju ancestor nor the Uchiha ancestor killed the other, it was just their states of mind, and their rivalry. We known nothing of their fate after the fact that the Sage chose his younger son to inherit his path of peace and the two fought and eventually parted and down the line eventually started the Uchihas and Senju.

I'm also not so much sure on what forgiveness has to do with a situation like this, although if I can just make a guess at it I assume you're trying to say that the Uchihas should be forgiven or something, and to that I say, it would be hard to forgive a clan that caused civil war and potentially the fourth greatest war in the history of the Shinobi Feudal world, causing potentially millions of deaths. Don't forget it's not just the village itself that must forgive, which, in itself would be very difficult and unlikly even for Konoha, but those also affected by war, which agains is probably millions (If I'm wrong in what I assume you're trying to say with that "forgiveness" statment then correct me, also you can tell me Naruto's relivence in this as well)

I keep telling you how bad the Uchihas are for a reason. That reason is, is that given their mindset and their past and inherited legacy, what Itachi did, and what the Hokage and elders ordered was in self defense, not out of agression. The Uchihas acted in agression and Konoha defended itself, as all persons have a right to do. They have the right to defend themselves. Uchihas weren't interested in defending themselves but gaining power. The reason I keep mentioning this is to show just how Itachi and the elders weren't evil and didn't make the wrong decision. The reason I keep bringing up the Uchihas and their obsession with power and working their way is to show that...when acted upon with agression by one party, the other party has the right to defend itself. Itachi was defending the village against the Uchihas and he still, had love enough for his village to attempt to save it's reputation, which, in this state of time, was a very high importance to the members of that clan. He killed them but tried to spare them scorn, which they would've recieved, yet instead he took that scorn away from them and onto himself. The Hokage and elders acted in self defense, Itachi acted on Konoha's behalf but also did for his clan, when he supposedly killed it.

We (the readers and watcher of Naruto) watch and read Naruto from a perspective outside the characters. We see everything that some characters cannot because we have the ability to say "Oh so that's how it is" when there is a differnt scenen or cut part. Few in the actual series saw the Uchihas for what they really were, and even fewer see what Itachi did truthfully. I mean only Kakashi, Naruto, and Yamato know of the truth behind the Uchiha assassination in the village, nobody else knows within Konoha, but we all do, which is why we're able to see that.

Closing for this statement (because I know it's long). Hokage/Konoha acted in self defense of their nation when the Uchihas were going to rebell. This would've caused civil war and eventually internationol war, and in a war there is always death and the continuation of hatred. Now Konoha had the right to act in self defense, so Itachi was the man for the job. Now what Itachi did, he did for his village and his clan. When the Uchihas rebelled, they would've recieve scron and lost their honor, although to most of them, that wasn't their concern. Itachi took that shame, and that scorn that the Uchihas would've recieved and bared it on himself. He then left his brother alive in the attempt to have his brother kill him and restore the clan, and bring it to a higher honor (that of coarse failed) but he tried to do all that for his village AND his clan that he supposedly turned his back on. If you find evil or foolishness in that please explain it to me. Itachi Uchiha was selfless, and a great shinobi, nothing he did was evil, nor was what Konoha did.

Oh and to clarify Pain didn't kill Hinata she was still alive after he stabbed her.

 

['Kurapika]

i just can't keep doing this , you are a great debater and for the things you say where not relevant , i say that's what happens when it get to long .
i would like to be your friend though and i'm going to add to my contact so we may debate on other things

 

[Reborn]

i just can't keep doing this , you are a great debater and for the things you say where not relevant , i say that's what happens when it get to long .
i would like to be your friend though and i'm going to add to my contact so we may debate on other things

Oh well thanks, I was just asking because I had gotten lost along the way, you're right it did go a little too long, and I'll accept you're request.

You're a well spoken debater yourself, I live in a house full of women so arguing and debating is key to survival... I never win against them though lol

 

[siyo]

Itachi was not really evil,he had good intentions.But was he a failure? Yes he was....

 

[Reborn]

Itachi was not really evil,he had good intentions.But was he a failure? Yes he was....

He tried at least, unlike his dead beat brother who simply spat on his grave by doing the crap he did. Itachi was a good person though even if he failed.

 

['Kurapika]

Oh well thanks, I was just asking because I had gotten lost along the way, you're right it did go a little too long, and I'll accept you're request.

You're a well spoken debater yourself, I live in a house full of women so arguing and debating is key to survival... I never win against them though lol

i live with three women "two of them are girls"
so i got some training as well but my english is bad , i keep searching my words on google:shrug:

 

[HakkeKoshu]

the uchiha was evil

with exceptions of itachi and shisui

Obito won't be happy to hear.