Is Itachi the Second Strongest Konoha Shinobi ever?

[Turson]

He can still potentially take them down.

Yeah, but their chances to take him out are like 100x bigger, so you cant really say that hes stronger than them.

 

[Lilt]

Yeah, but their chances to take him out are like 100x bigger, so you cant really say that hes stronger than them.

The difference between our two viewpoints is this:

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Specifically, that someone with Rinnegan Madara's knowledge level hyped the Yata Mirror as being a perfect defense.

Therefore, Itachi should last as long as he can hold his Susano'o.

(5-15 minutes, depending on health and other jutsu used.)

And five minutes is a long time for Itachi to figure out his oppponent and land an OHKO:

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So while I absolutely agree Itachi can't wreck a battlefield like Hashirama or Naruto,

I do think that he can take on people with much more power,

because of a perfect defense, laser-pointed offense, and his unmatched degree of perceptive intelligence.

(By laser, I mean they can only affect a single target or a few targets, but are very potent in their effects.)

 

[Lilt]

I would rank them as such though, to be sure:

1. Hashirama
2. Naruto
3. Itachi

I just think Itachi stands a better chance than most people do.

Particularly against Naruto, who I think would be easier to outsmart.

(But Naruto has insane support capabilities that make up for him not being brilliant intellectually.)

 

[Penguin]

1)Hashi
2)Itachi
3)Minato/Tobirama/Hiruzen
4)Minato/Tobirama/Hiruzen
5)Minato/Tobirama/Hiruzen

Im talking about loyal ninjas, not Rouge Ninjas like Orochimaru Madara and Obito.

1. Hashirama
2. Naruto
3. Tobirama
4. Minato
5. Guy (8th gate)
6. Kakashi war arc
7. Itachi

 

[Turson]

I do think that he can take on people with much more power,

Itachi is my favorite character from manga, but seriously... when I compare him to beast like Hashirama and Naruto, I dont see a simple difference in strenght, I see difference in levels.

Susanoo is powerful, but how long Itachi can use it? 3-4 minutes? Of course, Im talking about manga Itachi, not a fanfiction character known as "healthy Itachi". And even with it, both Naruto and Hashirama have right abilities to bypass Susanoo by reaching Itachi from the bottom of it.

 

[Lilt]

Healthy Itachi isn't fanfiction.

At age 13, he used Tsukuyomi quite easily. (At an age where Sasuke was drained from much smaller jutsu like Chidori.)

At age 21, just before he died, Itachi used Susano'o for several minutes after using many other jutsu that day.

So prior to his body being completely eaten away by disease, Itachi would obviously have a stronger body...

-

And the Yata Mirror changes all of its porperties, so reaching toward the bottom wouldn't work.

Again, Madara called it a perfect defense, and he fought Hashirama countless times.

 

[Turson]

Healthy Itachi isn't fanfiction.

He is, pretty much. We didnt see him in real combat, we cant estaminate his strenght.

And the Yata Mirror changes all of its porperties, so reaching toward the bottom wouldn't work.

I dont see how reaching him wouldnt work, as lower grades of Susanoo gives no protection from the bottom. Thats why Gaara was able to grip Madara with his sand.

 

[Lilt]

He is, pretty much. We didnt see him in real combat, we cant estaminate his strenght.

Edo Itachi supposedly has the vitality/movement of healthy Itachi, not sick Itachi, correct?

As for healthy Itachi's stamina (not infinite,) we can still say it's greater than that of sick Itachi.

How much greater is debatable, but sick Itachi held Susano'o for 3 minutes after using tons of other jutsu.

 

[Turson]

Edo Itachi supposedly has the vitality/movement of healthy Itachi, not sick Itachi, correct?

Not really. Edo Itachi had infinite chakra and stamina, he coulnt tire.

 

[Bogard]

Healthy Itachi isn't fanfiction.

Sorry to break up things for you, but yes he is since he doesn't exist in this manga

At age 13, he used Tsukuyomi quite easily. (At an age where Sasuke was drained from much smaller jutsu like Chidori.)

He used an uncontrolled tsukuyomi and quickly needed to deactivate his Sharingan after that

At age 21, just before he died, Itachi used Susano'o for several minutes after using many other jutsu that day.

If by many other jutsus you mean 2Amaterasu, 1tsukuyomi, 2katons, and one illusion, then it's not that many. Furthermore, what you fail to realise is that it's MS techniques that take the most on Itachi. Notice that after one tsukuyomi, he was already falling underground, after 2Amaterasu(Sasuke who has Sharingan) noticed he was almost out of chakra. The Susanoo he used was only due to his own will to continue to fight.

With 30% of his chakra, he can't even use one single MS technique despite having a better body without illness given by Pain

We don't know exactly when he got that desease but i suppose in part1, it wasn't that extrem if he even had it. But notice that after one tsukuyomi on Kakashi, he was already sweating, after one Amaterasu against Jiraya, he had to deactivate his Sharingan.

Notice that even in Edo, Sasuke was worried about Itachi, he was worrying if he could still use Susanoo, which means he knows about his lack in chakra/stamina

Itachi always had drawbacks for his techniques. Because of this his limit was around 3 or 4use per day. That's why even his partner in Akatsuki(Kisame) was always warning him against using those jutsus

 

[Takos]

yet another false perception of what happened...
1) NAruto was being blocked by a rasengan. When naruto disappeared, obito thought it was just a shadow clone vanishing. you know, that's why he said "a kagebushin?". kakashi wouldn't have had to warp naruto quickly since obito's line of sight was blocked.

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LOL, yeah, Obito's sight was indeed blocked soo much. :bouncy: Kakashi's Kamui was so fast Obito thought he actually destroyed Naruto's bunshin with his stake. This is later confirmed by Obito claiming Kakashi's kamui was just too fast.

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"Damn Kakashi, faster than the stake!"

2)yes, but he has to keep kamui on target for it to do it's thing. It's just a mini blackhole. If it never gets a chance to suck in anything, how is it going to? It's not big enough to actually force a massive object into it. He's always used a eye-hole sized kamui to suck in and expell things.

Again, Kakashi's Kamui is so fast that not even a Sharingan user can notice it when it's cast in front of him. That's not all, this Sharingan user explicitly stated he will keep an eye on Kakashi using Kamui. In other words, Kakashi didn't just get him by surprise. Obito tried to see incoming Kamui the best he could, but failed due to its speed.

And such speed means that if Kakashi can focus his sight on the opponent for fraction of a second, it is enough.

3) Nope. There are many scans (apart from your 1 convinient scan where obito's line of sight was blocked) which show how kamui absorbs.

Obito's sight was not blocked, who even thought of this nonsense?
Besides, Kamui was slower when Kakashi was only beggining to master it. Later he can perform instant Kamui on targets of human size or smaller (Two Susanoo arrows one after another, Rasengan, Naruto's clone).

It nothing close to instantaneous. It takes a little while, a moving object has enough time to get out of it's focus before it has a chance. Everytime to person moves, kamui's absorption has to restart.

Good luck avoiding which is fast enough that even a focused Sharingan user cannot see it, yet alone move accordingly.

4) I bring the best example. It's literally the only moment ever when the object moved. Can you bring up any scan where the object wasn't an ally or stationary? No you can't because kamui doesn't work like that.

Susanoo's arrows, here you go.

1) wtf? Wow you're confirmed kamui troll. Amaterasu appears on whatever the user looks at just like kamui. But, unlike kamui, you can't just move once it's on you. Amaterasu ignites and spreads. Kakashi can't kamui something that just appears and didn't travel at all.

Lol, sure, and that's why after Amaterasu was already cast by Sasuke Raikage not only could see it incoming but also had enough time to dodge it. Yeaah.

3) Naruto isn't faster. Ay dashed at naruto in V2. To dodge ama, Ay had to use V2 AND shushin.

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Even if naruto could get away, it's only a slight chance.

Guess we simply don't argue here.

4) He'd still be severly injured. Only because of ET was he even able to heal up.

If he Shinra Tenseis it right after it hits him, he won't give Ama enough time to deal any serious damage to him.
And the only reason Nagato had to heal up after it was because Kabuto didn't Shinra Tensei the flames right away.

5) So guy kills himself to dodge an attack that would do it for him? That has to be the dumbest response.

If you were a little more resourceful you would have thought that Guy could open gates not specifically to avoid Ama but to defeat Itachi in general. And if he DID it, then he would most likely be able to outspeed Ama.

Even if guy were able to open it after opening gate 6 or 7. What next? itachi sits in susano'o for the 10 seconds of gate time he has. Once that's up he's too exhausted to move and he's liable to a second one. Game over.

So, mr. Kishimoto, you say the gates last for 10 seconds? Well, if it's you who says that, who am I not to believe it, even if the gates' duration was nowhere stated.
Besides, Tsunade's kick was enough to crack Madara's Susanoo. 8-gated Guy surely has stronger hits than Tsunade.

You sure? That's alot easier than done.

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This was only possible because of being stomped by it before and getting intel enough to send a kagebushin.

So? The point is still valid. Someone like Kakashi, with intel, or someone like Guy, who has learned how to fight a Sharingan user without looking into his eyes, can avoid Tsukyomi. In fact many people who utilize a strategy of bunshin feints have higher ground here.

No one's talking about spamming. I'm talking about the FEW opponents that would even warrant that. Itachi can beat most people without resorting to MS. His base stats alone are better than that of MS sasuke, and MS sasuke is very quick.
Itachi didn't get exhausted from susano'o. He got exhausted from the fireball jutsu, crow clones, tsukuyomi, 2 amaterasu, and extinguishing amaterasu. Because you act like sasuke wasn't also exhausted even though he didn't use any MS moves.

Of course the previous jutsu also influenced it, but compare Itachi's condition before using Susanoo and after it. You'll see the difference.

1) So they'll run away while susano'o is out? What stupid logic is that. Now they're going to get easily beating by totsuka, amaterasu etc. No defence isn't a defence

And we return to the beginning, I won't repeat everything about Amaterasu again.

2)what prolonged fight? Itachi just pulled up to edo nagato, stabbed his summoning's eyes out and used susano'o to save naruto and bee.

Yet Itachi did not seal Nagato right away. He used Susanoo to save Naruto and Bee, so why didn't he just use totsuka at this point, instead? Naruto and Bee would be saved by it anyway.

3) what lmfao. Totsuka was able to extend long enough to slash through orochi's 8 branches, which it had to cover a good distance to do. By the time it's out you're already massively in range. You'd have to teleport far away to get away.

Calling people kamui trolls while you seem to be one of these people who eagerly claim "Itachi solos Madara via totsuka, gg". Isn't it so?

If he was able to warp them. Any failed attempt = GG chakra. Non uchiha = kamui drawbacks

With Sharingan's tracking ability and amazingly fast jutsu failed attempts can occur only in theory for current Kakashi's kamui proficiency. Or maybe you could bring an example of Kakashi missing his target (apart from his first use of Kamui in combat ever) with Kamui? Attempts to kamui Gedo Mazo and Obito don't count, since they didn't fail due to missing.

GL kamui'ing when you can't keep up with his speed.

Boy, learn to differentiate between jutsu speed and body speed. Itachi is very fast with jutsu execution which doesn't mean he could avoid Kamui. You're ridiculous.

Sorry to break up things for you, but yes he is since he doesn't exist in this manga

He used an uncontrolled tsukuyomi and quickly needed to deactivate his Sharingan after that

If by many other jutsus you mean 2Amaterasu, 1tsukuyomi, 2katons, and one illusion, then it's not that many. Furthermore, what you fail to realise is that it's MS techniques that take the most on Itachi. Notice that after one tsukuyomi, he was already falling underground, after 2Amaterasu(Sasuke who has Sharingan) noticed he was almost out of chakra. The Susanoo he used was only due to his own will to continue to fight.

With 30% of his chakra, he can't even use one single MS technique despite having a better body without illness given by Pain

We don't know exactly when he got that desease but i suppose in part1, it wasn't that extrem if he even had it. But notice that after one tsukuyomi on Kakashi, he was already sweating, after one Amaterasu against Jiraya, he had to deactivate his Sharingan.

Notice that even in Edo, Sasuke was worried about Itachi, he was worrying if he could still use Susanoo, which means he knows about his lack in chakra/stamina

Itachi always had drawbacks for his techniques. Because of this his limit was around 3 or 4use per day. That's why even his partner in Akatsuki(Kisame) was always warning him against using those jutsus

Perfectly true, the fact of the matter is, current Kakashi can spam his MS much more than Itachi ever could.

 

[AGoodBoy]

Sorry to break up things for you, but yes he is since he doesn't exist in this manga

He used an uncontrolled tsukuyomi and quickly needed to deactivate his Sharingan after that

If by many other jutsus you mean 2Amaterasu, 1tsukuyomi, 2katons, and one illusion, then it's not that many. Furthermore, what you fail to realise is that it's MS techniques that take the most on Itachi. Notice that after one tsukuyomi, he was already falling underground, after 2Amaterasu(Sasuke who has Sharingan) noticed he was almost out of chakra. The Susanoo he used was only due to his own will to continue to fight.

With 30% of his chakra, he can't even use one single MS technique despite having a better body without illness given by Pain

We don't know exactly when he got that desease but i suppose in part1, it wasn't that extrem if he even had it. But notice that after one tsukuyomi on Kakashi, he was already sweating, after one Amaterasu against Jiraya, he had to deactivate his Sharingan.

Notice that even in Edo, Sasuke was worried about Itachi, he was worrying if he could still use Susanoo, which means he knows about his lack in chakra/stamina

Itachi always had drawbacks for his techniques. Because of this his limit was around 3 or 4use per day. That's why even his partner in Akatsuki(Kisame) was always warning him against using those jutsus

healthy itachi only appeared against sasuke. Every other itachi (including the one that wrecked kakashi) were healthy. somewhere along the 3 year timeskip he got sick. Add what sick itachi can do to the speed he showed against kakashi and there you go.. a decent idea of healthy itachi. But common sense like that would just make the guy stronger, so no one wants to accept anything but half dead itachi.

as to your last posts. Itachi used his entire arsenal, sasuke didn't use a single ms move. Sasuke barely used any draining moves and even had the cursed mark for chakra boost but he got to the point of collapsing off of exhaustiong, whereas itachi killed himself by using the last drop of his chakra on sasuke. If itachi didn't plant his jutsu into sasuke, it would've been a draw at best( you know, assuming itachi didn't just stab sasuke there).

@turson. Naruto can't beat itachi. Maybe 4/10 times at best, but not always. His biggest weakness is what itachi would use to deck him - genjutsu. Naruto has succumb to genjutsu so many times by itachi. Even a perfect jin such as bee fell for it, and yagura was controlled by it. Tsukuyomi would end naruto's mental state while yata theorectically tanks anything he can dish. 3t Sharingan allows itachi to see any blitz move and react accordingly. Sasuke was able to evade Raikage's elbow blow, and itachi is faster than him. Then there's the fact that itachi activated susano'o before lightning hit.

It's still;

Hashirama
Itachi
Naruto/minato
minato/naruto
tobirama
...
etc

As long as you don't count rogue nins. Then orochimaru( with et), madara, obito would bump itachi down

 

[Takos]

Naruto can't beat itachi.

Holy cow, sorry I debated you. I didn't know you were biased this much.

But just to make you wake up, a list of people that would definitely defeat Itachi:
-Hashirama
-Madara
-Obito
-Naruto
-Minato
-Nagato
-Danzo with KA

A list of people that would have at least some chances to defeat Itachi:
-Kakashi
-Guy
-EMS Sasuke
-A
-Bee
-Hiruzen
-Jirayia
...and a lot of other people I don't feel like recalling now

 

[Turson]

@turson. Naruto can't beat itachi. Maybe 4/10 times at best, but not always. His biggest weakness is what itachi would use to deck him - genjutsu. Naruto has succumb to genjutsu so many times by itachi. Even a perfect jin such as bee fell for it, and yagura was controlled by it. Tsukuyomi would end naruto's mental state while yata theorectically tanks anything he can dish. 3t Sharingan allows itachi to see any blitz move and react accordingly. Sasuke was able to evade Raikage's elbow blow, and itachi is faster than him. Then there's the fact that itachi activated susano'o before lightning hit.

Genjutsu? Any Genjutsu other than Tsukuyomi would be useless. Itachi is not Obito, just like Naruto is not Yagura.

I dont think that Itachi could keep his eyes on Naruto if he used Shunshin. Itachi is only slightly faster than Sasuke, and Sasuke wasnt able to keep up with V2 A, who is slower than Naruto. Moreover, Naruto has Frog Katas, which is like ideal weapon against Uchihas. Sharingan can see chakra, not pure natural energy.

 

[Bogard]

healthy itachi only appeared against sasuke. Every other itachi (including the one that wrecked kakashi) were healthy. somewhere along the 3 year timeskip he got sick. Add what sick itachi can do to the speed he showed against kakashi and there you go.. a decent idea of healthy itachi. But common sense like that would just make the guy stronger, so no one wants to accept anything but half dead itachi.

as to your last posts. Itachi used his entire arsenal, sasuke didn't use a single ms move. Sasuke barely used any draining moves and even had the cursed mark for chakra boost but he got to the point of collapsing off of exhaustiong, whereas itachi killed himself by using the last drop of his chakra on sasuke. If itachi didn't plant his jutsu into sasuke, it would've been a draw at best( you know, assuming itachi didn't just stab sasuke there)

I don't see where your reply counter my post. I said everything in my previous post and you still didn't counter it. You said it yourself that every Itachi was "healthy" besides the one against Sasuke, yet you forgot completely what i said?

- The 13yo Itachi used an uncontrolled tsukuyomi and quickly needed to deactivate his Sharingan after that
- The 18yo Itachi against Kakashi was already sweating after just one tsukuyomi, Kisame even warning him to stop. After the Amaterasu against Jiraya, he was forced to stop his Sharingan and check for a place to rest
- In part2, Pain offered him a perfect body with no illness to face Kakashi's team, yet even with 30% of his chakra he couldn't use one single MS technique

The "healthy" Itachi you're talking about never existed besides in fanfiction. So far, when you analyse each Itachi we've seen in the manga, he always had drawbacks for his MS techniques and was limited to 3 or 4use of it

As for the Sasuke vs Itachi point, you forget that it was said in part1, that just using CS takes a great quantity of chakra and you need a lot of effort to handle it, then add the fact, Sasuke was using some of his chakra to restrain Orochimaru inside his body, plus the fact that he used Orochimaru's Kawarimi technique said by Itachi to take a lot of chakra, had to withstand tsukuyomi, used other jutsus and you see a Sasuke completely drained. It's just about regulating your chakra while fighting, it has nothing to do with potential chakra that someone possess

The fact remain like i've said that even with a Edo body, Sasuke still feared that Itachi couldn't use Susanoo anymore, simply because he knew he has much more chakra than Itachi, cuz he knew it's not a technique Itachi can use for very long or very often

 

[AGoodBoy]

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LOL, yeah, Obito's sight was indeed blocked soo much. :bouncy: Kakashi's Kamui was so fast Obito thought he actually destroyed Naruto's bunshin with his stake. This is later confirmed by Obito claiming Kakashi's kamui was just too fast.

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"Damn Kakashi, faster than the stake!"



Again, Kakashi's Kamui is so fast that not even a Sharingan user can notice it when it's cast in front of him. That's not all, this Sharingan user explicitly stated he will keep an eye on Kakashi using Kamui. In other words, Kakashi didn't just get him by surprise. Obito tried to see incoming Kamui the best he could, but failed due to its speed.

And such speed means that if Kakashi can focus his sight on the opponent for fraction of a second, it is enough.



Obito's sight was not blocked, who even thought of this nonsense?
Besides, Kamui was slower when Kakashi was only beggining to master it. Later he can perform instant Kamui on targets of human size or smaller (Two Susanoo arrows one after another, Rasengan, Naruto's clone).



Good luck avoiding which is fast enough that even a focused Sharingan user cannot see it, yet alone move accordingly.



Susanoo's arrows, here you go.




Lol, sure, and that's why after Amaterasu was already cast by Sasuke Raikage not only could see it incoming but also had enough time to dodge it. Yeaah.



Guess we simply don't argue here.



If he Shinra Tenseis it right after it hits him, he won't give Ama enough time to deal any serious damage to him.
And the only reason Nagato had to heal up after it was because Kabuto didn't Shinra Tensei the flames right away.



If you were a little more resourceful you would have thought that Guy could open gates not specifically to avoid Ama but to defeat Itachi in general. And if he DID it, then he would most likely be able to outspeed Ama.



So, mr. Kishimoto, you say the gates last for 10 seconds? Well, if it's you who says that, who am I not to believe it, even if the gates' duration was nowhere stated.
Besides, Tsunade's kick was enough to crack Madara's Susanoo. 8-gated Guy surely has stronger hits than Tsunade.




So? The point is still valid. Someone like Kakashi, with intel, or someone like Guy, who has learned how to fight a Sharingan user without looking into his eyes, can avoid Tsukyomi. In fact many people who utilize a strategy of bunshin feints have higher ground here.




Of course the previous jutsu also influenced it, but compare Itachi's condition before using Susanoo and after it. You'll see the difference.



And we return to the beginning, I won't repeat everything about Amaterasu again.



Yet Itachi did not seal Nagato right away. He used Susanoo to save Naruto and Bee, so why didn't he just use totsuka at this point, instead? Naruto and Bee would be saved by it anyway.



Calling people kamui trolls while you seem to be one of these people who eagerly claim "Itachi solos Madara via totsuka, gg". Isn't it so?



With Sharingan's tracking ability and amazingly fast jutsu failed attempts can occur only in theory for current Kakashi's kamui proficiency. Or maybe you could bring an example of Kakashi missing his target (apart from his first use of Kamui in combat ever) with Kamui? Attempts to kamui Gedo Mazo and Obito don't count, since they didn't fail due to missing.




Boy, learn to differentiate between jutsu speed and body speed. Itachi is very fast with jutsu execution which doesn't mean he could avoid Kamui. You're ridiculous.




Perfectly true, the fact of the matter is, current Kakashi can spam his MS much more than Itachi ever could.

what are you talking about? Obito's line of sight is clearly blocked. We even see the rasengan having the symptoms of kamui on it for 2 panels (distorted). how the hell is that instant? He was using kamui for so long on that rasengan... Obito threw out his stake (effectively blocking his sight) and saw nothing in it's path so obviously he assumed it was a kagebushin that blew up. That's like common sense...

You clearly read the wrong manga. If his kamui was that fast then he wouldn't have failed to kamui gedo masu or juubi before obito interferes. Instant can't be stopped... even kishi disagrees with you.

guess a massive sharingan stake the sight of his head, being spawned out of a vortex wouldn't block his sight because it's all transparent.

see above posts.... Itachi kage bushin flank was too fast for a sharingan user looking at him. so was his jutsu. This kamui was done in a blind spot.

that was moving linear, wtf? Susano'o arrow was literally going in a straight path to his head. He just had to keep his eye on it and job done, lul... not like susano'o arrow side stepped, wow.

Raikage used an after image? He didn't see shit. The amaterasu first hit his lightning armor and he shushin'd before it caught his skin. That's why it stopped on his lightning after image then spawned on the next thing (samurai) in sasuke's line of sight.

alright

he'd still be injured because the flames are severly hot. Go put your hand in a furnace for one second. Your hand would have already burnt a little bit.

Lmao??? 5th gate lee only used hidden lotus which needed a sharingan to see. 6th gate guy only used morning peacock. 7th gate only used afternoon tiger. They only got out one highspeed movement (which couldn't be seen by the naked eye) before they fell out of gates. + tsunade has monster strength... and to top it all off, madara didn't have yata mirror. tsunade didn't get through an invincible spirit shield, so your point doesn't make sense here.

umm what...? you need to be highly trained to fight someone by looking at their feet. Even asuma said only guy could do that because he trains for it. So they avoid tsukuyomi, now they can't see his eye bleeding for an amaterasu prep. Good job, you're dead.

Before using it he was exhausted. After he was... exhausted...?

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Even sasuke ran out of chakra/stamina before the guy. Itachi could've kept fighting much longer without if not for camping that susano'o to take out 8 branch oro, tank sasuke's attacks, then walk all the way to sasuke and plant the last of his chakra. Btw, there was never an after susano'o because he died with it up... He never even released it. The one time he was about to, sasuke attacked again and he reactivated it. He planted the last of his chakra into sasuke, killing himself. only reason sasuke 'won'

ok, because only about 2-3 ninja can avoid ama at best anyway.

Didn't i say after this that it's probably because totsuka would have sealed them too? How should i know? Nagato had naruto's soul in his hand... The guy knows why he didn't decide to seal a guy who was holding another guy's soul...

Lmao. Nice one, must be a good thing i said madara, orochimaru, and obito beats itachi, and even stated that madara would be unaffected by tsukuyomi. :| i can see you're really getting desperate now, but It doesn't change the fact that you're a kamui troll.

let me get this straight. You ask for evidence, then restrict the evidence? What...? can you provide a scan when he hit a moving target that wasn't going in a straight line towards him/wasn't an ally prepared to be warped? no you can't. But there's scans of his kamui failed, which you so kindly restrict because that's the best thing to do. That's like asking "Show me one scan of obito being him, but not the time minato used FtG or when naruto was kamui'd in his dimension, or when konan blew him to shit... or...". Can you even show a scan where kamui killed ANYONE? If it's so invincible, this scan should be easy to find.

Read the scan...? "I couldn't keep up with his speed"
"isn't that right kakashi" and there's a kunai in his back...

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Then there's these scans of him being able to dodge naruto and bee, and flank bee. But, of coarse, you'll respond by saying he's an edo, as if edo's train in the ground. Yea, ok, because he'd have gotten faster by being dead. So, yes, he can avoid kamui by simply side stepping. Kakashi has to hit unpredictable moving targets with a pebble.


Kakashi used 4-5 kamui. 2 of which were used on very small targets (knife and rasengan), one which failed (so didn't soak too much chakra), and err, isn't that about it? After which he had to get chakra off of naruto. So, yea, his missed kamui's would put him in a ditch, hence why he never uses it unless in a crisis situation, because he knows it's drawbacks.

 

[AGoodBoy]

Holy cow, sorry I debated you. I didn't know you were biased this much.

But just to make you wake up, a list of people that would definitely defeat Itachi:
-Hashirama
-Madara
-Obito
-Naruto
-Minato
-Nagato
-Danzo with KA

A list of people that would have at least some chances to defeat Itachi:
-Kakashi
-Guy
-EMS Sasuke
-A
-Bee
-Hiruzen
-Jirayia
...and a lot of other people I don't feel like recalling now

you clearly don't even read my posts because the people you list that can defeat him have been stated by me, and i even said that naruto defeats him, just not always... you're just responding for the sake of responding now..

Genjutsu? Any Genjutsu other than Tsukuyomi would be useless. Itachi is not Obito, just like Naruto is not Yagura.

I dont think that Itachi could keep his eyes on Naruto if he used Shunshin. Itachi is only slightly faster than Sasuke, and Sasuke wasnt able to keep up with V2 A, who is slower than Naruto. Moreover, Naruto has Frog Katas, which is like ideal weapon against Uchihas. Sharingan can see chakra, not pure natural energy.

bee was hit by genjutsu, allowing itachi enough time to flank. naruto was caught by finger genjutsu. itachi only has to get naruto to look into his eyes to be hit by tsukuyomi. and what does itachi not being obito have to do with anything? Shikamaru's dad even said that itachi is able to control multiple enemies at a time. Control, not genjutsu. Control. V2 ay isn't always slower than naruto... Naruto had to shushin to dodge him. Naruto doesn't use that speed all the time. In any case, i did say naruto beats him 4/10 times didn't I?

I don't see where your reply counter my post. I said everything in my previous post and you still didn't counter it. You said it yourself that every Itachi was "healthy" besides the one against Sasuke, yet you forgot completely what i said?

- The 13yo Itachi used an uncontrolled tsukuyomi and quickly needed to deactivate his Sharingan after that
- The 18yo Itachi against Kakashi was already sweating after just one tsukuyomi, Kisame even warning him to stop. After the Amaterasu against Jiraya, he was forced to stop his Sharingan and check for a place to rest
- In part2, Pain offered him a perfect body with no illness to face Kakashi's team, yet even with 30% of his chakra he couldn't use one single MS technique

The "healthy" Itachi you're talking about never existed besides in fanfiction. So far, when you analyse each Itachi we've seen in the manga, he always had drawbacks for his MS techniques and was limited to 3 or 4use of it

As for the Sasuke vs Itachi point, you forget that it was said in part1, that just using CS takes a great quantity of chakra and you need a lot of effort to handle it, then add the fact, Sasuke was using some of his chakra to restrain Orochimaru inside his body, plus the fact that he used Orochimaru's Kawarimi technique said by Itachi to take a lot of chakra, had to withstand tsukuyomi, used other jutsus and you see a Sasuke completely drained. It's just about regulating your chakra while fighting, it has nothing to do with potential chakra that someone possess

The fact remain like i've said that even with a Edo body, Sasuke still feared that Itachi couldn't use Susanoo anymore, simply because he knew he has much more chakra than Itachi, cuz he knew it's not a technique Itachi can use for very long or very often

I don't want to have to make a long post against you. But, 18 yo itachi used 2 tsukuyomi and an amaterasu in 1 day. he had to deactivate them so that he wouldn't abuse his eyes too much. The guy had his MS for years, and it gets you blind. Obviously he tries to keep the strain to a minimal. In any case, 3 MS moves in 1 day back then without being exhausted? I don't see why you'd bring that up was these are just about the feats he used on sasuke. Doesn't tsukuyomi even take a bigger toll than amaterasu in the first place?

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Kakashi just used a bushin to dodge it. This is a top of the line Genjutsu (tsukuyomi) considering itachi said in his first encounter with kakashi that "though the sharingan allows him to see through genjutsu, only someone of uchiha blood can counter that one" blah blah.

As for the rest of your post. Healthy itachi, has been shown on several occasions, people just don't want to accept it because simple extrapolation is too hard. If they had to accept a healthy itachi, their favourite character would have a less chance and would actually have to kill itachi instead of relying on sickness. Even Edo itachi can be viewed as a healthy itachi, but then again, people on here think edos train in hell, so they learn things like yasaka magatama, etc.

Itachi's stamina/chakra pool may be low, but it doesn't change the fact that most of his fights end before that remotely kicks in.

 

[Turson]

bee was hit by genjutsu, allowing itachi enough time to flank. naruto was caught by finger genjutsu. itachi only has to get naruto to look into his eyes to be hit by tsukuyomi. and what does itachi not being obito have to do with anything? Shikamaru's dad even said that itachi is able to control multiple enemies at a time. Control, not genjutsu. Control. V2 ay isn't always slower than naruto... Naruto had to shushin to dodge him. Naruto doesn't use that speed all the time. In any case, i did say naruto beats him 4/10 times didn't I?

"Allowing Itachi enough time to flank".
But not enough time to take him out, right?

"and what does itachi not being obito have to do with anything?"
To put it sipmly: Sakura and Chiyo were good enough to snap out Naruto from Itachis 3t Genjutsu, Sasuke was casually breaking it. And Kurama is not good enough?

"itachi only has to get naruto to look into his eyes to be hit by tsukuyomi"
And thats the problem, since Naruto knows exactly how Tsukuyomi works.

"V2 ay isn't always slower than naruto... Naruto had to shushin to dodge him."
Just like A used Shunshin to attack him. A said that himself, it was his full speed.

"Naruto doesn't use that speed all the time."
And? Fact is: he ca use it.

"In any case, i did say naruto beats him 4/10 times didn't I?"
Well, in my humble opinion Naruto beats him 10 of 10 times. Like I said earlier, for me its not a simple difference in strenght betweem them, but difference in levels. Like betweem Chuunin and Jounin.

 

[Lilt]

He used an uncontrolled tsukuyomi and quickly needed to deactivate his Sharingan after that

He showed no signs of fatigue, and at only 13.

Being able to use a jutsu like Tsukuyomi at that age is far above average stamina.

Not to mention Itachi told Sasuke he used all three MS jutsu on that fateful day.

If by many other jutsus you mean 2Amaterasu, 1tsukuyomi, 2katons, and one illusion, then it's not that many.

Massive oversimplification.

• Karasu Bunshin against Sasuke (inviting him to meet him.)
• Karasu Bunshin (against Naruto)
• Sealing Kotoamatsukami in Naruto.
• Multi-layered genjutsu
• Karasu Bunshin (against Sasuke in their real fight.)
• Tsukuyomi
• One Katon to burst through the roof.
• A second sustained Katon battle against Sasuke.
• One burst of Amaterasu
• One sustained-Amaterasu (obviously more exhausting than a burst)
• Susano'o for several minutes.
• Sealing Amaterasu in Sasuke

With 30% of his chakra, he can't even use one single MS technique despite having a better body without illness given by Pain

He was obviously lying, seeing as he used more than 3 MS techniques against Sasuke

(Tsukuyomi, 2 Amaterasu, and Susano'o, sealed Amaterasu, not to mention clones, katons, genjutsu, etc.)

he was already sweating, after one Amaterasu against Jiraya

He'd already used Tsukuyomi twice, and those two Tsukuyomis were after dividing his chakra in half with a Kage Bunshin.

All in one day. A time when Kakashi could only use Chidori four times in one day with 100% of his chakra.

Again, clearly point to well above average stamina.

 

[AGoodBoy]

"Allowing Itachi enough time to flank".
But not enough time to take him out, right?
He didn't want to kill them. He was talking to naruto. :|
"and what does itachi not being obito have to do with anything?"
To put it sipmly: Sakura and Chiyo were good enough to snap out Naruto from Itachis 3t Genjutsu, Sasuke was casually breaking it. And Kurama is not good enough?
What? That was finger genjutsu. Quite possibly his weakest one. The genjutsu on naruto didn't even use sharingan eye contact. Also, Sasuke only broke it because he's an uchiha with a sharingan. You know, like the only people itachi said could break out of tsukuyomi? How is kurama helping him? Kurama was help as a lap dog by 2 uchiha. Actually 3. Sasuke even went into naruto's head and told kurama to go **** himself. But i guess sasuke is more skilled at genjutsu than itachi, now.

"itachi only has to get naruto to look into his eyes to be hit by tsukuyomi"
And thats the problem, since Naruto knows exactly how Tsukuyomi works.
LoL. And this is the defence? He's going to do what? Look at his feet and get fingered again? Or maybe itachi will turn his head like he did to kakashi? What happens when naruto attacks an exploding kage bushin feint?

"V2 ay isn't always slower than naruto... Naruto had to shushin to dodge him."
Just like A used Shunshin to attack him. A said that himself, it was his full speed.
I said he isn't always. As in naruto has to shunshin to do that. Naruto isn't shunshin every single time he moves now is he? V1 ay was keeping up with naruto easily. v2 even better.

"Naruto doesn't use that speed all the time."
And? Fact is: he ca use it.
And itachi can activate susano'o fast enough to block a lightning bolt. What now? Naruto gets finger genjutsu'd/amaterasu'd/w.e

"In any case, i did say naruto beats him 4/10 times didn't I?"
Well, in my humble opinion Naruto beats him 10 of 10 times. Like I said earlier, for me its not a simple difference in strenght betweem them, but difference in levels. Like betweem Chuunin and Jounin.

Naruto's a genin. Itachi's S++ :s Naruto needs kurama to even reach S class. Itachi sits in S class with his base sharingan. It's obvious where the scale tips. Naruto can't even get past his most basic defence of susano'o, nor is he skilled enough at genjutsu to break out instantly. All itachi needs to do is paralyse him for a minute and walk up with a kunai and stab. An intent to kill itachi would beat him 6/10 times, give or take 2 times.