[Discussion] Ironically Sasuke followed Orochimaru's desire.

[Punk Hazard]

Ofc it's the same and what you don't get is base on what I make this comparison. It's like you hating your father as a kid and yet you end up just like him even though you thought he was so wrong. I'm not simply pointing the similarity in desiring a "change", I specifically talked about how Sasuek thought so low of Orochimaru at first and yet he ended up also desiring a complete, radical change. This comparison also goes to show how Sasuke's mentality changed over time since when he first went to Orochimaru, he didn't want to kill people and in general he was more reserved as to how he would act whereas now he's willing to kill anyone and with whatever means, be it moral or immoral, just to complete his aim, much like how Orochimaru became ruthless when he became obsessed with his dreams.

You see it from a very narrow perspective, it's not only about the change, it's how the 2 of them begun, and how sharing the same dream in some extent, albeit Orochimaru's was one of many and not that specific, made his student adopt some of his traits of his personality.

1. Orochimaru doesn't want radical change though

2. Sasuke was opposed to Orochimaru's ways not because he was against killing, he was against killing people that had nothing to do with what he was doing, Sasuke was opposed to killing innocent people and toying with life, which Orochimaru did. The only time Sasuke was like that was at the Kage Summit, and even then it could be argued that since the Samurai attacked him first, it was just self-defense and doesn't technically violate his principle, but his mental instability at the time makes that call less likely.

Back then, Sasuke was willing to kill people if there was a justifiable need. Since Sasuke sees killing the Kages and Naruto as a step towards a better world, it's a justifiable need. Orochimaru experimented with lives for his own selfish purposes, not to bring about a radical change, so no, they are not on the same parth.

I find it funny you're saying I'm looking at this with a narrow mind, but I'm focusing more on the individual details than you actually are.

 

[Zlatán]

I think you didn't read the manga, Orochimaru wanted to change the human life form, he believed the life span of a human being is too short, he was always affected by his parents death, since they died before he truly got to know them, that's what made made him become obsessed with Immorality. Sasuke simply wants to end the darkness in the world, and bring everlasting peace. Comparing the two, they have no similarities

 

[Byron123]

1. Orochimaru doesn't want radical change though

2. Sasuke was opposed to Orochimaru's ways not because he was against killing, he was against killing people that had nothing to do with what he was doing, Sasuke was opposed to killing innocent people and toying with life, which Orochimaru did. The only time Sasuke was like that was at the Kage Summit, and even then it could be argued that since the Samurai attacked him first, it was just self-defense and doesn't technically violate his principle, but his mental instability at the time makes that call less likely.

Back then, Sasuke was willing to kill people if there was a justifiable need. Since Sasuke sees killing the Kages and Naruto as a step towards a better world, it's a justifiable need. Orochimaru experimented with lives for his own selfish purposes, not to bring about a radical change, so no, they are not on the same parth.

I find it funny you're saying I'm looking at this with a narrow mind, but I'm focusing more on the individual details than you actually are.

What I said about being narrow- minded was about how you were only taking into consideration the word "change" and not other factors such as their relationship and how Sasuke's personality was affected by sharing one of his goals.

1st: Orochimaru has never really talked about that in depth but it seems that the change was one of his biggest dreams. It was what he motivated him to destroy Konoha and it was what motivated him to help Sasuke who "killed" him and was the reason to lose a body as Sasuke's which would lead him to immortality. That being said, I could even argue that his dream of change exceeds even his lust for immortality. The fact that he was willing to cooperate with someone like Sasuke just to see this "change" proves that for Orochimaru it's a subject of major importance and not just a caprice. Besides going as far to try destroy one of the 5 big nations and in fact his homeland proves exactly that. If he didn't want something radical he wouldn't go to such lenghts.

2nd: Assuming that you're right about that, one could argue that neither all the 5 current kages are to be blamed for the current chaos. In fact if it wasn't for Tsunade he would have still been in coma after Itachi had used Tsukuyomi on him, nice way to pay back lol . Even Gaara did not do anything bad. If anything, it certainly has clouded his judgement.

 

[Byron123]

I think you didn't read the manga, Orochimaru wanted to change the human life form, he believed the life span of a human being is too short, he was always affected by his parents death, since they died before he truly got to know them, that's what made made him become obsessed with Immorality. Sasuke simply wants to end the darkness in the world, and bring everlasting peace. Comparing the two, they have no similarities

These panels prove that he didn't want just that.

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[Punk Hazard]

What I said about being narrow- minded was about how you were only taking into consideration the word "change" and not other factors such as their relationship and how Sasuke's personality was affected by sharing one of his goals.

1st: Orochimaru has never really talked about that in depth but it seems that the change was one of his biggest dreams. It was what he motivated him to destroy Konoha and it was what motivated him to help Sasuke who "killed" him and was the reason to lose a body as Sasuke's which would lead him to immortality. That being said, I could even argue that his dream of change exceeds even his lust for immortality. The fact that he was willing to cooperate with someone like Sasuke just to see this "change" proves that for Orochimaru it's a subject of major importance and not just a caprice. Besides going as far to try destroy one of the 5 big nations and in fact his homeland proves exactly that. If he didn't want something radical he wouldn't go to such lenghts.

2nd: Assuming that you're right about that, one could argue that neither all the 5 current kages are to be blamed for the current chaos. In fact if it wasn't for Tsunade he would have still been in coma after Itachi had used Tsukuyomi on him, nice way to pay back lol . Even Gaara did not do anything bad. If anything, it certainly has clouded his judgement.

1. Orochimaru and Sasuke never shared goals though. Nothing indicates that Orochimaru wanted change though. He said it explicitly, his goal was to become immortal and learn every jutsu there is. You're just making things up now. Orochimaru wanted to destroy Konoha because they didn't elect him Hokage, so he grew to loathe the place. "Oh Orochimaru wanted radical cha-" no he didn't. What Orochimaru wanted was indeed radical, but it wasn't change or revolution

2. The Five Kages use ideals that caused the world to be ensnared in darkness, and there's a chance they will continue to use these ideals. There's a chance they will change, but Sasuke isn't going to leave it to chance, he's going to do what he sees as making sure these toxic ideals aren't used to influence the world anymore.

3. Sasuke's personality was affected by Tobi and Hashirama, not Orochimaru. Sasuke's current personality has nothing to do with Orochimaru, as Orochimaru said himself that Sasuke is seeing things clearly for himself, and is different than when he was influencing him. I did look at the factors in their relationship, as I corrected you on why Sasuke was disgusted with Orochimaru.

 

[Punk Hazard]

These panels prove that he didn't want just that.

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Now you're just recycling already countered arguments.

 

[Byron123]

Now you're just recycling already countered arguments.

1st: I do not recycle it, I read the intrerpretationt that you gave about the metaphor to which I disagree.
For me, these panels mean litteraly change, it's a difference in intrerpreatations.

2nd: I understand Sasuke's logic but it still goes to show that he's willing to kill some of the kages, such as Tsunade who cured him from the coma, whether she did something wrong or not just because she's one of the kages. That being said, you can see that he's trying to kill an innocent person just for his cause, someone who had never opposed to him and had even helped in not labelling Sasuke rogue (that happened with Danzo) and thus he's ruthless.

3rd: He was indeed affected by the ones you mentioned but my point here is that even his changed personality, shares some similar traits to Orochimaru such as his obsession with his aims, even if that said change happened by other people and so it is indirect.