[Discussion] Ironically Sasuke followed Orochimaru's desire.

[Byron123]

I mean it's quite ironic if you think about it. What Orochimaru wanted all along was to bring a "change". Sasuke on the other hand has never held Orochimaru in high regard ( I'm talking about specifically about latter's goals) and he even thought that he was disgusting for his ways.

Yet Sasuke's goal has now become what Orochimaru wanted although latter's desire was more vague while former's is more specified.

Not only that but the way he acts is quite similar to Orcohimaru's in some aspects.

He waits for the perfect time to strike, changing camps in a matter of seconds in order to fulfill his aim.

He's ruthless, he is willing to kill people no matter how their conditional might be.

He almost never speaks his mind clearly.

And last but not least his ambitions matter more than anything else, willing to kill even his best friend (much like what happened between Orochimaru and Jiraya) in order to succeed.




Could it be that even Sasuke's current declaration was what Orochimaru told him when the former asked the latter for his reasons about destroying Konoha? It seems like Sasuke's ideas indeed change very easily depending on whom he speaks with XD

 

[Punk Hazard]

TF are you talking about? Orochimaru's goal was to become immortal so he could learn every jutsu and understand all there is to know about the world. Orochimaru tortured and killed unnecessarily for selfish reasons. Sasuke found him disgusting not because he killed, but because he toyed with life.

Sasuke isn't doing any of that.

 

[Byron123]

TF are you talking about? Orochimaru's goal was to become immortal so he could learn every jutsu and understand all there is to know about the world. Orochimaru tortured and killed unnecessarily.

Sasuke isn't doing any of that.

And that's why I specifically talked about certain aspects of his personality and his desire to kill the 3rd Hokage so that he can bring this "big" change. Sasuke right now wants to do that in a worldwide level.

 

[Joker]

TF are you talking about? Orochimaru's goal was to become immortal so he could learn every jutsu and understand all there is to know about the world. Orochimaru tortured and killed unnecessarily for selfish reasons. Sasuke found him disgusting not because he killed, but because he toyed with life.

Sasuke isn't doing any of that.

Read, he obviously said Orochimaru wanted change, which isn't false. By saying so, he meant Orochimaru's windmill philosophy, he he wanted to be the wind to make it move; which in turn, is what Sasuke is doing now. A person can have more than one goal, immortality is the main one, but being the wind is more of a hobby.

 

[Byron123]

Read, he obviously said Orochimaru wanted change, ehich isn't false. By saing so, he meant Orochimaru's windmill philosophy, he he wanted to be the wind to make it move; which in turn, is what Sasuke is doing now. A person can have more than one goal, immortality is the main one, but being the wind is more of a hobby.

Thank you

 

[Dantee]

what exactly did Orochimaru want to change. His gender or his age

 

[Joker]

what exactly did Orochimaru want to change. His gender or his age

It wasn't anything specefic. He just wanted to change the world, because I suppose it got boring to him; somewhat of a revolution.

 

[Byron123]

what exactly did Orochimaru want to change. His gender or his age

What Grey Walker said. For him a change was always about changing the way the world works and Sasuke tries to accomplish right now exactly that.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Read, he obviously said Orochimaru wanted change, which isn't false. By saying so, he meant Orochimaru's windmill philosophy, he he wanted to be the wind to make it move; which in turn, is what Sasuke is doing now. A person can have more than one goal, immortality is the main one, but being the wind is more of a hobby.

I know what he said. I disagree. Orochimaru doesn't want change, he simply wants to see what Sasuke is going to do, and he is going to help Sasuke. Orochimaru doesn't care for change per se, he's just curious as to what Sasuke does, and he help. His windmill philosophy is that Sasuke, as a windmill, is getting going, he's going to do something, and Orochimaru will be the wind that supports him. it has nothing to do with change. If Sasuke's goal was to create a grand canyon for whatever reason, and Orochimaru helped, he'd still be the wind under his windmill. If Sasuke's goal was to ensure nothing changes, Orochimaru would still be helping him.

 

[Joker]

I know what he said. I disagree. Orochimaru doesn't want change, he simply wants to see what Sasuke is going to do, and he is going to help Sasuke. Orochimaru doesn't care for change per se, he's just curious as to what Sasuke does, and he help. His windmill philosophy is that Sasuke, as a windmill, is getting going, he's going to do something, it has nothing to do with change.

You're referring to his new ideal. In part one, Orochimaru wanted to be the wind to make the windmill move. Implying he wanted change. This was before he wanted to see what Sasuke would do, he himself wanted to bring change. What kind of change, I don't know, but the basic action and overall motive is very similar.

 

[Byron123]

You're referring to his new ideal. In part one, Orochimaru wanted to be the wind to make the windmill move. Implying he wanted change. This was before he wanted to see what Sasuke would do, he himself wanted to bring change. What kind of change, I don't know, but the basic action and overall motive is very similar.

Exactly!!!

 

[saw2097]

As I recall even Jiraya said Sasuke is very much like Orochimaru as well, so it makes since that Sasuke naturally follows the path Orochimaru wants him too.

 

[Byron123]

As I recall even Jiraya said Sasuke is very much like Orochimaru as well, so it makes since that Sasuke naturally follows the path Orochimaru wants him too.

True but I don't think that he was talking so much about their personality but rather the fact that both of them were genius.

 

[Punk Hazard]

You're referring to his new ideal. In part one, Orochimaru wanted to be the wind to make the windmill move. Implying he wanted change. This was before he wanted to see what Sasuke would do, he himself wanted to bring change. What kind of change, I don't know, but the basic action and overall motive is very similar.

I could just as easily say the vagueness of his statement doesn't mean change. Here's the thing, since Orochimaru's statement was vague, it can imply many things. For example, at the time, Orochimaru was very manipulative, the same way the wind manipulates windmills into moving. Orochimaru's words then could simply be referring to wanting to manipulate people since that's what allowed him to get as far as he did.

 

[Joker]

I could just as easily say the vagueness of his statement doesn't mean change. Here's the thing, since Orochimaru's statement was vague, it can imply many things. For example, at the time, Orochimaru was very manipulative, the same way the wind manipulates windmills into moving. Orochimaru's words then could simply be referring to wanting to manipulate people since that's what allowed him to get as far as he did.

It may be a bit vague, but like I said, the overall goal is the same; wanting to bring about change. They both are doing it forcefully. Orochimaru did it by killing Hiruzen and attempting to destroy the Leaf, while Sasuke is going to kill the Gokage, and destroy the current shinobi system. The similarity is there, without a doubt, and so is their overall relation to each other's ambitions.

 

[Punk Hazard]

It may be a bit vague, but like I said, the overall goal is the same; wanting to bring about change. They both are doing it forcefully. Orochimaru did it by killing Hiruzen and attempting to destroy the Leaf, while Sasuke is going to kill the Gokage, and destroy the current shinobi system. The similarity is there, without a doubt, and so is their overall relation to each other's ambitions.

Once again, you don't know that. It's just as likely to be his usual method of manipulating people, forcing them to go in a certain direction. After all, Orochimaru manipulates people into going in his direction, where he wants them to go. Same with windmills and wind, the windmills move depending on the wind. It's safe to say my allusion is the correct one, IMO, the connection between the metaphors and meaning is stronger on my part.

Back then, the phrase meant manipulating people. Whether or not a windmill moves, how intensely it moves, what direction it moves in, when it moves, all depends on the wind, the wind is in control. Orochimaru was just like that manipulating people in what they did, how they did it, when they did it, and how hard they did it, and to what purpose. Making the windmill move doesn't imply change because windmills are meant to move, nothing is being changed but the individual windmill. You could argue that Orochimaru making the windmills change is the change that can be alluded to Sasuke, but I don't think so. The change Sasuke is talking about is vastly different than the change that comes with manipulation of people. If being able to call it change is enough to say they're similar, then Jiraiya, Kakashi, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Naruto, Konan, Nagato, Tobi, you could say they all walk the same path as Orochimaru, and that's just not true, so why is it true for Sasuke? The connection just isn't strong enough.

 

[Joker]

Once again, you don't know that. It's just as likely to be his usual method of manipulating people, forcing them to go in a certain direction. After all, Orochimaru manipulates people into going in his direction, where he wants them to go. Same with windmills and wind, the windmills move depending on the wind. It's safe to say my allusion is the correct one, IMO, the connection between the metaphors and meaning is stronger on my part.

Back then, the phrase meant manipulating people. Whether or not a windmill moves, how intensely it moves, what direction it moves in, when it moves, all depends on the wind, the wind is in control. Orochimaru was just like that manipulating people in what they did, how they did it, when they did it, and how hard they did it, and to what purpose. Making the windmill move doesn't imply change because windmills are meant to move, nothing is being changed but the individual windmill. You could argue that Orochimaru making the windmills change is the change that can be alluded to Sasuke, but I don't think so. The change Sasuke is talking about is vastly different than the change that comes with manipulation of people. If being able to call it change is enough to say they're similar, then Jiraiya, Kakashi, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Naruto, Konan, Nagato, Tobi, you could say they all walk the same path as Orochimaru, and that's just not true, so why is it true for Sasuke? The connection just isn't strong enough.

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Nothing indicates he's trying to manipulate people. Even with his talk with Tsunade, he said he wanted change, but now, he'll wait for other people's wind to blow; so he can view the change their wind brings, before he gets sealed, for whatever reason.

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Orochimaru got bored with the current system. So, to make things more interesting, he set out to destroy Konoha. He was tired of waiting for someone else to do it, si he decided to take it upon himself to do so.

 

[Byron123]

Once again, you don't know that. It's just as likely to be his usual method of manipulating people, forcing them to go in a certain direction. After all, Orochimaru manipulates people into going in his direction, where he wants them to go. Same with windmills and wind, the windmills move depending on the wind. It's safe to say my allusion is the correct one, IMO, the connection between the metaphors and meaning is stronger on my part.

Back then, the phrase meant manipulating people. Whether or not a windmill moves, how intensely it moves, what direction it moves in, when it moves, all depends on the wind, the wind is in control. Orochimaru was just like that manipulating people in what they did, how they did it, when they did it, and how hard they did it, and to what purpose. Making the windmill move doesn't imply change because windmills are meant to move, nothing is being changed but the individual windmill. You could argue that Orochimaru making the windmills change is the change that can be alluded to Sasuke, but I don't think so. The change Sasuke is talking about is vastly different than the change that comes with manipulation of people. If being able to call it change is enough to say they're similar, then Jiraiya, Kakashi, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Naruto, Konan, Nagato, Tobi, you could say they all walk the same path as Orochimaru, and that's just not true, so why is it true for Sasuke? The connection just isn't strong enough.

All of these people you mentioned might have wanted a change but not to that extent and not by using force. Obito and Madara did not want to change the world, they wanted to create a new one, they weren't exactly facing the problem. They were rather trying to avoid it. All the others might have wanted some change but Sasuke's change is more radical, he doesn't call for just improvement but for complete change. Such radical plans were originally Orochimaru's plan.

Also, you lose the point here, even if you compare Sasuke and Orochimaru to others, the basic difference is the relationship that existed between these two characters. What is ironic is the fact that Sasuke who had to no respect for his teacher ended up wanting to do what Orochimaru tried to when he attacked Konoha.

 

[Punk Hazard]

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Nothing indicates he's trying to manipulate people. Even with his talk with Tsunade, he said he wanted change, but now, he'll wait for other people's wind to blow; so he can view the change their wind brings, before he gets sealed, for whatever reason.

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Orochimaru got bored with the current system. So, to make things more interesting, he set out to destroy Konoha. He was tired of waiting for someone else to do it, si he decided to take it upon himself to do so.

I could also say that a stopped windmill isn't worth watching is metaphorical for something he can't control and manipulate isn't worth being around. He failed to become Hokage, so Konoha is worthless to him, so he is going to destroy it.

If the wind is symbolic for manipulation, then the destruction of Konoha can fit inside. After all, Orochimaru instigated this entire plan through manipulating the Chunin Exams, Sunagakure, and Otogakure. The destruction of Konoha, if succeeded, would have been one giant succeeded manipulating. Orochimaru couldn't make Konoha's windmill move with his wind, so his wind will now be destroying Konoha. He wants to "make the windmill spin again", he wants to manipulate something. Since he wants Konoha gone and wants to manipulate something, why not kill them both with one stone and destroy Konoha through manipulation.

Orochimaru never even said the word change when talking to Tsunade. He said he isn't the wind anymore, he isn't trying to manipulate(or this time around, a better word would be influence) Sasuke, other winds have blown in Sasuke's windmill, i.e, the Four Hokages. They're making Sasuke's windmill spin now.

All of these people you mentioned might have wanted a change but not to that extent and not by using force. Obito and Madara did not want to change the world, they wanted to create a new one, they weren't exactly facing the problem. They were rather trying to avoid it. All the others might have wanted some change but Sasuke's change is more radical, he doesn't call for just improvement but for complete change. Such radical plans were originally Orochimaru's plan.

Also, you lose the point here, even if you compare Sasuke and Orochimaru to others, the basic difference is the relationship that existed between these two characters. What is ironic is the fact that Sasuke who had to no respect for his teacher ended up wanting to do what Orochimaru tried to when he attacked Konoha.

Kinda my point. They all wanted change, yet, you say they aren't like Orochimaru, but Sasuke is like Orochimaru just for wanting change? Nagato, Obito, Madara, and Konan went about their means of change through murder or attempted murder, but they aren't like Orochimaru while Sasuke is for that reason? It all shows that what you're saying makes no sense.

Now you're saying they're walking on the same road because of their relationship? Tsunade, Hiruzen and Jiraiya had a relationship with Orochimaru that was stronger than the one between Oro and Sasuke, but you still won't say they follow the same path, will you? Orochimaru attacked Konoha because he couldn't become its leader, so he saw it as worthless. Classic "If I can't become king, then the kingdom is worthless." Sasuke is aiming for revolution now. The two goals are in no way the same.

 

[Byron123]

I could also say that a stopped windmill isn't worth watching is metaphorical for something he can't control and manipulate isn't worth being around. He failed to become Hokage, so Konoha is worthless to him, so he is going to destroy it.

If the wind is symbolic for manipulation, then the destruction of Konoha can fit inside. After all, Orochimaru instigated this entire plan through manipulating the Chunin Exams, Sunagakure, and Otogakure. The destruction of Konoha, if succeeded, would have been one giant succeeded manipulating. Orochimaru couldn't make Konoha's windmill move with his wind, so his wind will now be destroying Konoha. He wants to "make the windmill spin again", he wants to manipulate something. Since he wants Konoha gone and wants to manipulate something, why not kill them both with one stone and destroy Konoha through manipulation.

Orochimaru never even said the word change when talking to Tsunade. He said he isn't the wind anymore, he isn't trying to manipulate(or this time around, a better word would be influence) Sasuke, other winds have blown in Sasuke's windmill, i.e, the Four Hokages. They're making Sasuke's windmill spin now.


Kinda my point. They all wanted change, yet, you say they aren't like Orochimaru, but Sasuke is like Orochimaru just for wanting change? Nagato, Obito, Madara, and Konan went about their means of change through murder or attempted murder, but they aren't like Orochimaru while Sasuke is for that reason? It all shows that what you're saying makes no sense.

Now you're saying they're walking on the same road because of their relationship? Tsunade, Hiruzen and Jiraiya had a relationship with Orochimaru that was stronger than the one between Oro and Sasuke, but you still won't say they follow the same path, will you? Orochimaru attacked Konoha because he couldn't become its leader, so he saw it as worthless. Classic "If I can't become king, then the kingdom is worthless." Sasuke is aiming for revolution now. The two goals are in no way the same.

Ofc it's the same and what you don't get is base on what I make this comparison. It's like you hating your father as a kid and yet you end up just like him even though you thought he was so wrong. I'm not simply pointing the similarity in desiring a "change", I specifically talked about how Sasuek thought so low of Orochimaru at first and yet he ended up also desiring a complete, radical change. This comparison also goes to show how Sasuke's mentality changed over time since when he first went to Orochimaru, he didn't want to kill people and in general he was more reserved as to how he would act whereas now he's willing to kill anyone and with whatever means, be it moral or immoral, just to complete his aim, much like how Orochimaru became ruthless when he became obsessed with his dreams.

You see it from a very narrow perspective, it's not only about the change, it's how the 2 of them begun, and how sharing the same dream in some extent, albeit Orochimaru's was one of many and not that specific, made his student adopt some of his traits of his personality.