[Discussion] IMHO Yamamoto>Hogyoku Aizen

[Lord of Akatsuki]

Yama may have known that YH could not use his full power at that time, he should be aware of the prophecy. Theres also the factor that Kubo made up YH's powers later to let him fight ichibei but from a plot standpoint he still had them before according to jugram.

Dude, it doesn't matter if Yhwach had the Almighty 1000 years ago, cause he didn't use it against Yamamoto, that is simply how it is.
And don't say Yamamoto may have known that Yhwach could not use his full power, post manga scans otherwise it didn't happen.

Yamamoto clearly says that he believes Yhwach only has basic Quincy shit and a sword. He wouldn't be lying at this point either, after all why would he?
Not only that, but the Royal Guard had all of the information of Yama's battle with Yhwach 1000 years ago, and yet knew nothing of the 'Almighty.'


Also, now that I think about it, I don't think Vollstanding existed 1000 years prior.
So, we can now connect the dots.
Yamamoto fought a Yhwach without his Schrift, Lezt Still, Spells, and Volstanding.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

There is no proof that Yhwach didn't use "Almighty" 1000 years ago. We know he had it during that time, so while risking to lose against Yamamoto, when you can win? or maybe he really used it and still lost because Yamamoto was just stronger.

Yamamoto countering "Almighty" could fit my theory that all SWPs has ability to counter "Almighty". (Yamamoto was said to be on SWP level, but didn't make to the list only because he became soft in 1000 years).

The problem is that Yamamoto said: "know when your sword is gone, you are only left with your arrows". So, many thinks Yhwach didn't use "Almighty" because of that. But we saw numeros Schrift being used through mediums. As Nodt using his "Fear" with his Reishi Thorns, Askin using "Deathdealing" through his blood, Lilttoto using her "Glutton" through her body. It's possible that Yhwach is using his "Almighty" through his sword, and when Yamamoto destroyed his sword he made such statament.

How would I rank them:

Current Almighy Yhwach > Bankai Yamamoto > Almighy Yhwach 1000 years ago > Current Base Yhwach > Shikai Yamamoto > Base Yhwach 1000 years ago > Base Yamamoto

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

There is no proof that Yhwach didn't use "Almighty" 1000 years ago. We know he had it during that time, so while risking to lose against Yamamoto, when you can win? or maybe he really used it and still lost because Yamamoto was just stronger.

Yamamoto countering "Almighty" could fit my theory that all SWPs has ability to counter "Almighty". (Yamamoto was said to be on SWP level, but didn't make to the list only because he became soft in 1000 years).

The problem is that Yamamoto said: "know when your sword is gone, you are only left with your arrows". So, many thinks Yhwach didn't use "Almighty" because of that. But we saw numeros Schrift being used through mediums. As Nodt using his "Fear" with his Reishi Thorns, Askin using "Deathdealing" through his blood, Lilttoto using her "Glutton" through her body. It's possible that Yhwach is using his "Almighty" through his sword, and when Yamamoto destroyed his sword he made such statament.

How would I rank them:

Current Almighy Yhwach > Bankai Yamamoto > Almighy Yhwach 1000 years ago > Current Base Yhwach > Shikai Yamamoto > Base Yhwach 1000 years ago > Base Yamamoto

There is indeed proof that he didn't use it 1000 years ago, but no proof that he did besides 'He ought to have since he had it.'

So far, no one can counter the 'Almighty,' The Soul King (and thus his arm/hand god) are immune to it. The Soul King is above Yhwach, and also had the ability to see the future, Yhwach himself speculated that the Soul King saw everything that would lead up to his 'death.' Sounds like the Soul Kings ability is pretty op.

I think the only people who could counter such an ability would have to be one of the Soul Kings lost limbs.

Yhwach is using the 'Almighty' through his eyes, and also, show manga scans otherwise it didn't happen.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

There is indeed proof that he didn't use it 1000 years ago, but no proof that he did besides 'He ought to have since he had it.'

Could you show proof?

So far, no one can counter the 'Almighty,' The Soul King (and thus his arm/hand god) are immune to it. The Soul King is above Yhwach, and also had the ability to see the future, Yhwach himself speculated that the Soul King saw everything that would lead up to his 'death.' Sounds like the Soul Kings ability is pretty op.

Yhwach didn't see Mihigami coming to replace Soul King.

Soul King isn't above Yhwach. I don't see where are you coming with that.

I think the only people who could counter such an ability would have to be one of the Soul Kings lost limbs.

Yhwach is using the 'Almighty' through his eyes, and also, show manga scans otherwise it didn't happen.

You need eyes to see, don't you? But we are talking about an ability. Kyoka Suigetsu is hypnosis that need sword in order to be used, but I would never really think that sword would be needed for someone to use hypnosis.

What do you mean with "show manga scans otherwise it didn't happen"?

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

Could you show proof?

Already did in the page before this one mate, there's enough evidence to back my claim.

Yhwach didn't see Mihigami coming to replace Soul King.

Soul King isn't above Yhwach. I don't see where are you coming with that.

Mimihagi is the Soul Kings ****ing actual limb/hand/arm, of course he ****ing couldn't see him. That's why I said only the Soul King and his limbs could counter the 'Almighty,' actually, the actual term would be to be above the 'Almighty,' not counter.

Soul King is indeed above Yhwach, being immune to the 'Almighty' means that you have to be above its plane of power (Basically). At least until Yhwach absorbed Mimihagi, and thus a piece of the Soul King himself.

You need eyes to see, don't you? But we are talking about an ability. Kyoka Suigetsu is hypnosis that need sword in order to be used, but I would never really think that sword would be needed for someone to use hypnosis.

What do you mean with "show manga scans otherwise it didn't happen"?

Yhwach is not a Soul Reaper, the Almighty is activated through his eyes, they are an eye ability, it is connected to the brain. You'd have to be a dimwit to not realise that its an eye power.
As for 'show manga scans or it didn't happen,' I'm saying you better bloody well show manga scans that can back your claim about Yamamoto knowing about the 'Almighty' and Yamamoto being able to counter it, Yhwach using 'Almighty' 1000 years prior even though there is many clear manga scans that tell a different story, and proof that 'Almighty' is a sword ability (Lol) otherwise it didn't happen.

Edt: Well, I'm getting a little heated here, forgive me for my outburst, its late and I'm cranky lol.

 

[KingHashirama]

Aizen is immortal. UNLESS Yamamoto can seal him which he should be able to.

There hasn't been a shinigami stronger than him 1000 years afterall

 

[Forbidden Tale]

@ Lord of Akatsuki

Okay, you would just need to give me manga scans, why Yhwach didn't use "Almighy" and lost, when he could win with that, or it didn't happened.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

@ Lord of Akatsuki

Okay, you would just need to give me manga scans, why Yhwach didn't use "Almighy" and lost, when he could win with that, or it didn't happened.

There isn't any manga scans that explain why Yhwach didn't use the 'Almighty,' or why he lost.
There is only manga scans as evidence (and proof) that he didn't use 'Almighty.'



The Royal Guard has all of the information about Yamamoto's battle with Yhwach unless proven otherwise, and they had no knowledge of the 'Almighty.'

You must be registered for see images

Also, these scans can still be used.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Anyway, even if you still stand by your statement that the 'Almighty' could be used through his sword, it still proves my point that Yhwach didn't use Lezt Still, Vollstanding and spells. Also, unless I missed something, there is no manga scans to prove that Yhwach's ability was/is used through the sword, than for now I take the win.
Lol.

Edit: That was actually a pretty good comeback there, you threw me of for a second, bravo.

 

[ssjelf]

There isn't any manga scans that explain why Yhwach didn't use the 'Almighty,' or why he lost.
There is only manga scans as evidence (and proof) that he didn't use 'Almighty.'



The Royal Guard has all of the information about Yamamoto's battle with Yhwach unless proven otherwise, and they had no knowledge of the 'Almighty.'

You must be registered for see images

Also, these scans can still be used.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Anyway, even if you still stand by your statement that the 'Almighty' could be used through his sword, it still proves my point that Yhwach didn't use Lezt Still, Vollstanding and spells. Also, unless I missed something, there is no manga scans to prove that Yhwach's ability was/is used through the sword, than for now I take the win.
Lol.

Edit: That was actually a pretty good comeback there, you threw me of for a second, bravo.

Nimaiya only said that they don't know much of his abilities besides what he has used both in the past and the recent fight. He never said anything about almighty. Sternritters and all that may have come later, the resurrection thing YH did was certainly new info to Nimaiya and this is what he was commenting on. He was unsure of YH's technique he was about to use and assumed it was an attack. This has nothing to do with almighty. Where is the scan that says almighty is unknown to the Royal Guard?

I already disproved those next scans. Yama certainly knew of YH's prophecy and so he knew that YH's power was limited at that point. Jugram confirmed that YH's power's were limited right up until he used them.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

Nimaiya only said that they don't know much of his abilities besides what he has used both in the past and the recent fight. He never said anything about almighty. Sternritters and all that may have come later, the resurrection thing YH did was certainly new info to Nimaiya and this is what he was commenting on. He was unsure of YH's technique he was about to use and assumed it was an attack. This has nothing to do with almighty. Where is the scan that says almighty is unknown to the Royal Guard?

I already disproved those next scans. Yama certainly knew of YH's prophecy and so he knew that YH's power was limited at that point. Jugram confirmed that YH's power's were limited right up until he used them.

None of the Royal Guard even knew the 'Almighty' existed, please keep up you poor chap. Yes, indeed, what they know about Yhwach is limited to his battle with Yamamoto 1000 years prior.
That scan was used merely to show that they had information about Yhwach from 1000 years ago, not about Nimaiya talking about the 'Almighty,' after all, how can Nimaiya when he has no knowledge on the ability?

And no, you didn't disapprove those scans.

 

[ssjelf]

None of the Royal Guard even knew the 'Almighty' existed, please keep up you poor chap. Yes, indeed, what they know about Yhwach is limited to his battle with Yamamoto 1000 years prior.
That scan was used merely to show that they had information about Yhwach from 1000 years ago, not about Nimaiya talking about the 'Almighty,' after all, how can Nimaiya when he has no knowledge on the ability?

And no, you didn't disapprove those scans.

You have failed to provide a scan that says Almighty was not used. You have failed to provide a scan that shows the Royal Gurad did not know of almighty. You have failed to provide a counter argument to my points of the second set of scans. How can YH use almighty in that second battle when Jugram confirmed he could not. Yama knew this.

 

[ssjelf]

None of the Royal Guard even knew the 'Almighty' existed, please keep up you poor chap. Yes, indeed, what they know about Yhwach is limited to his battle with Yamamoto 1000 years prior.
That scan was used merely to show that they had information about Yhwach from 1000 years ago, not about Nimaiya talking about the 'Almighty,' after all, how can Nimaiya when he has no knowledge on the ability?

And no, you didn't disapprove those scans.

Oh and as for the whole sword thing being the basis for Almighty, well heres a scan that comes to mind.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Why does YH's sword have a name? That seems weird for a quincy to use a sword let alone a sword with a name, that sounds like a zan actually. Not saying I agree but it certainly is weird. It also seems weird that yama is so convinced that YH can do nothing without his swords except arrows. This is weird because quincys are known for arrows so you would figure those would be his primary attacks which tells me there is something more to that sowrd. Also evidenced as when ichigo touched it YH was able to take over part of ichigos arm which means that it is no mere sword.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

You have failed to provide a scan that says Almighty was not used. You have failed to provide a scan that shows the Royal Gurad did not know of almighty. You have failed to provide a counter argument to my points of the second set of scans. How can YH use almighty in that second battle when Jugram confirmed he could not. Yama knew this.

Lol, very well, I guess I'll have to give proof of common knowledge. Lol

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

There, you happy now?
Yhwach monologued about his abilities, and Ichibei clearly didn't know anything but what Yhwach told him about the 'Almighty.'

I don't know what the hell your talking about with the bold. :dunno:

Oh and as for the whole sword thing being the basis for Almighty, well heres a scan that comes to mind.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Why does YH's sword have a name? That seems weird for a quincy to use a sword let alone a sword with a name, that sounds like a zan actually. Not saying I agree but it certainly is weird. It also seems weird that yama is so convinced that YH can do nothing without his swords except arrows. This is weird because quincys are known for arrows so you would figure those would be his primary attacks which tells me there is something more to that sowrd. Also evidenced as when ichigo touched it YH was able to take over part of ichigos arm which means that it is no mere sword.

Sadly, you failed, badly.

Everything that exists has a name, even an arm.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Not only that, but Ichibei took the swords name away, rendering it useless, so no, it is not the basis of the 'Almighty,' because if its basis is gone there's no way Yhwach would still be able to use that power.
That was because of Ichigo's Quincy Blood, not the sword (which is now useless.)
Yeah, except Yhwach also has other abilities that he can use besides arrows, 'Almighty' and a sword.

Current Yhwach is still stronger.

Edit: You can concede now. :xD:

 

[ssjelf]

Lol, very well, I guess I'll have to give proof of common knowledge. Lol



There, you happy now?
Yhwach monologued about his abilities, and Ichibei clearly didn't know anything but what Yhwach told him about the 'Almighty.'

I don't know what the hell your talking about with the bold. :dunno:

Sadly, you failed, badly.

Everything that exists has a name, even an arm.


Not only that, but Ichibei took the swords name away, rendering it useless, so no, it is not the basis of the 'Almighty,' because if its basis is gone there's no way Yhwach would still be able to use that power.
That was because of Ichigo's Quincy Blood, not the sword (which is now useless.)
Yeah, except Yhwach also has other abilities that he can use besides arrows, 'Almighty' and a sword.

Current Yhwach is still stronger.

Edit: You can concede now. :xD:

Ichibei never said that he didn't know it existed. He literally sat there silent. He thought he had taken away YH's powers including almighty but he couldnt, he literally just rolled with it. Post some real proof please where they say its new to them.

In the stuff you bolded of my previous post: You actually just missed that page apparently.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Explain how YH knew his swords name. Also YH had his entire name converted to Black ant so therefore he shouldnt be able to use his power right? Almighty negated that so it can negate the swords name being gone too. Great logic you had there.

Ichigo still had to touch it. And it was so useless that it could cut the SK in half right. lol ok

So why did Yama act like he had YH cornered?

Of course he is, he has many more people to suck power from and he has Yama bankai. Now he has the right arm of the SK. But ichibei is not stronger than yama.

 

[ssjelf]

Yhwach was explaining the powers to us. So we would know what was happening. And the complete intricacy of YH's powers and how they effect other powers is not known by any of the shinigami because only Yama fought him. It is entirlely possible that Ichibei knows of almighty but does not know of everything about it because Yama didnt know everything about it wither. this would be because Yama's flames are not like ichibeis ink. Ichibei had no way of knowing his power would not work because Yama fights with flames. Yama may have explained some but it is clear ichibei was under the impression that his power could stop YH from using almighty.

in other words, if YH used almighty vs Yama then the royal guard still might not know much about it because they only can base it off yamas experience with itl. yama might not have known that it simply overrides everything regardless of when he activated almighty. he might have thought it nullifies abilties used after activation. As such ichibei assumed that he could take it away.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

Ichibei never said that he didn't know it existed. He literally sat there silent. He thought he had taken away YH's powers including almighty but he couldnt, he literally just rolled with it. Post some real proof please where they say its new to them.

In the stuff you bolded of my previous post: You actually just missed that page apparently.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Explain how YH knew his swords name. Also YH had his entire name converted to Black ant so therefore he shouldnt be able to use his power right? Almighty negated that so it can negate the swords name being gone too. Great logic you had there.

Ichigo still had to touch it. And it was so useless that it could cut the SK in half right. lol ok

So why did Yama act like he had YH cornered?

Of course he is, he has many more people to suck power from and he has Yama bankai. Now he has the right arm of the SK. But ichibei is not stronger than yama.

Yeah, he sat there with a look of shock on his face, like he didn't know of the ability.
No, I didn't miss that page, I just didn't see the stuff you were talking about was important, also, the way you worded it didn't make sense to me. I had no idea what you mean/meant by 'second battle,' what second battle?
Yhwach never said he knew his swords name, it was merely a statement by Ichibei.

:erm: Because Yhwach didn't reveal all of his abilities to Yamamoto that's why 'Facepalm.'
Yes, 'Almighty' did indeed negate the naming ability, however how can he use the 'Almighty' through his sword if its been erased? Zzz
Quite the conundrum we have here.

Oh wait, its because its not powered through through the sword. Ahh, that makes sense now doesn't it? =D

You answered it for yourself, Yhwach's 'Almighty' can negate the name erasing after its happened.

Ichibei is stronger than Yamamoto, he's the actual Head of the Shinigami, and he's far, far older. So old that he named everything in the Soul Society, also, by feats Ichibei is indeed stronger.

Yhwach was explaining the powers to us. So we would know what was happening. And the complete intricacy of YH's powers and how they effect other powers is not known by any of the shinigami because only Yama fought him. It is entirlely possible that Ichibei knows of almighty but does not know of everything about it because Yama didnt know everything about it wither. this would be because Yama's flames are not like ichibeis ink. Ichibei had no way of knowing his power would not work because Yama fights with flames. Yama may have explained some but it is clear ichibei was under the impression that his power could stop YH from using almighty.

in other words, if YH used almighty vs Yama then the royal guard still might not know much about it because they only can base it off yamas experience with itl. yama might not have known that it simply overrides everything regardless of when he activated almighty. he might have thought it nullifies abilties used after activation. As such ichibei assumed that he could take it away.

:hyper:
I'm not replying to this because its utter bs.

 

[ssjelf]

Yeah, he sat there with a look of shock on his face, like he didn't know of the ability.
No, I didn't miss that page, I just didn't see the stuff you were talking about was important, also, the way you worded it didn't make sense to me. I had no idea what you mean/meant by 'second battle,' what second battle?
Yhwach never said he knew his swords name, it was merely a statement by Ichibei.

:erm: Because Yhwach didn't reveal all of his abilities to Yamamoto that's why 'Facepalm.'
Yes, 'Almighty' did indeed negate the naming ability, however how can he use the 'Almighty' through his sword if its been erased? Zzz
Quite the conundrum we have here.

Oh wait, its because its not powered through through the sword. Ahh, that makes sense now doesn't it? =D

You answered it for yourself, Yhwach's 'Almighty' can negate the name erasing after its happened.

Ichibei is stronger than Yamamoto, he's the actual Head of the Shinigami, and he's far, far older. So old that he named everything in the Soul Society, also, by feats Ichibei is indeed stronger.



:hyper:
I'm not replying to this because its utter bs.

He had no shock. That one exclamation point panel is actually not in order, he is about to use an ability there.

The second battle with Yama. The first being 1000 years ago. the second being the one we saw although that technically wasnt YH.

How can he use almighty at all if his own name has been changed? "Yhwach's 'Almighty' can negate the name erasing after its happened." That applies to the sword too. If YH can use it after his name has been changed, then his sword could also use it. You failed to use logic again. And you contradicted yourself by asking how his sword could use it without a name and then saying YH could without a name. "Quite the conundrum we have here" lmao

He did know its name
MS translation:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Therefore he did know its name. MP is a bit more vague but can be interpreted the same. YH was about to call his swords name and Ichibei called him out for not knowing it because he had erased it. So I ask again, how did YH know his swords name.

Yama who is visibly older than ichibei may have been around at that same time. Nothing to say he wasn't and his age says he was.

You don't have to reply to that if you don't have an argument, Im not making you.

 

[Lord of Akatsuki]

He had no shock. That one exclamation point panel is actually not in order, he is about to use an ability there.

The second battle with Yama. The first being 1000 years ago. the second being the one we saw although that technically wasnt YH.

How can he use almighty at all if his own name has been changed? "Yhwach's 'Almighty' can negate the name erasing after its happened." That applies to the sword too. If YH can use it after his name has been changed, then his sword could also use it. You failed to use logic again. And you contradicted yourself by asking how his sword could use it without a name and then saying YH could without a name. "Quite the conundrum we have here" lmao

He did know its name
MS translation:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Therefore he did know its name. MP is a bit more vague but can be interpreted the same. YH was about to call his swords name and Ichibei called him out for not knowing it because he had erased it. So I ask again, how did YH know his swords name.

Yama who is visibly older than ichibei may have been around at that same time. Nothing to say he wasn't and his age says he was.

You don't have to reply to that if you don't have an argument, Im not making you.

Okay, good to know.
Ahh, it seems you've forgotten that Yhwach's eyes weren't covered in ink, which is why he can still use the 'Almighty,' because its an eye power. There, see? I'm still being logical.

Visible age doesn't matter, Yama's Lieutenant is almost as old as he is and he doesn't look as old now does he? Toshiro is about as old as Momo, Rukia, and Renji yet he looks younger.

And no, Ichibei should indeed be older, he pre-dates Soul Society. He named it and everything else after all.
Yamamot also said that he was only the strongest Shinigami within the last thousand years, which implies that there were those who were stronger than him.
Obviously Ichibei and Nimaiya should both be older and stronger. :hmm:


Very well, I guess I'll concede about the sword having an actual name, but that still does't means its like a Zanpakuto. :dunno:

It wasn't that I didn't have an argument, it was just that I considered it utter bullshit so I thought I'd give it a pass and not reply.

Edit: Are you sure about the exclamation panel? Well anyway, if you look at the way one of his eyes are drawn in a panel it shows shock.

 

[Shiroyasha]

Huh? Ichigo had to go over a thousand year hyperbolic training to acheive his Final Form to defeat Aizen. Hogyoku Aizen's spiritual power is to the point where it can't be sense. I didn't see the same thing being said for Yamamoto.

Ichigo barely spent 3 months in the Dangai World. Get your shit together.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Hogyoku Aizen's spiritual power is to the point where it can't be sense. I didn't see the same thing being said for Yamamoto.

You are using Aizen's statament as fact. I am not saying that it's not fact, but there is a huge possibility that it's not.

Aizen declared that he was a transcendent being, but he never really gave an idea of what that means, mentioning only that his reiatsu could not be felt by anyone not on his level. However, then comes Ichigo and Aizen can't feel his reiatsu, which he tries to claim is because Ichigo gave up his reiatsu for physical power, but Ichigo pretty much disproves this instantly. Aizen could not fathom that Ichigo could also be a transcendent being so thats where we are stuck. You could say that Ichigo had gone to a level even higher than Aizen and thus were both transcendent beings, or you can say that there is no such thing as a transcendent being. Frankly, I believe that the whole transcendent being thing was just Aizen being full of himself as usual, but the story never really clarified itself one way or the other.

There is also a thing that Gin wasn't affraid of that transcedent reiatsu. You could say that he was unaware of it, but that would be false, because he saw Aizen destroying Cleaner. Still he only wanted to stop KS.

Besides really if we talking about unability to sense reiatsu than Royd wasn't able to tell where the flame of East went aka he couldn't sense a reiatsu made flam. Neither was he able to see and sense east before Yama actualy allowed him to see it and even than Jugo needed to actualy think before comming up with the idea that the flame is reiatsu and he just came up with it and not actualy sensed the feeling of reiatsu.