[Discussion] IMHO Yamamoto>Hogyoku Aizen

ssjelf

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first off, we don't actually know how yama defeated juha, hell we don't even know if he defeated him. what we do know is that yama failed to kill him. whether that means he defeated him in battle, we just don't know. also, yama was not the strongest shinigami in existence. that title would most definitely go to ichibei. dude can literally wipe you from existence. as far as the spiritual pressure goes. when gin did what he did to aizen, aizen had been supressing his reiatsu so that he could effect beings on a lesser level then him. otherwise they wouldn't be able to feel his spiritual pressure and be crushed under the weight of it. so it has to work the opposite way as well. if his spiritual pressure can now effect lesser individuals and they can feel it, they must have been able to effect him as well. it only makes sense. works in the same way that kenpachi uses his patch to supress his reiatsu so he can have more fun. otherwise most wouldn't normally be able to hurt him.
Aizen was not suppressing it because he disintegrated that guy who was touching him. He then chased down Ichigos friends and the whole time they were being completely pressured. Rangiku even was trembling by being near him. His power was such that even though he was on another dimension he was still affecting the world around him.
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he is not holding back and he is surprised because she should have disappeared like that other human but she manages to hang on because she has reiatsu. He is clearly in the other dimension here. And again
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BTW I stil think Yamamoto is stronger than ichibei, he beat YH and ichibei didnt, that means something I think.
 

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Well I think Aizen would have been stronger had he evolved further but I doubt he was stronger than Yamamoto in any of the Hogyoku forms shown.
 

Ultimateone

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Aizen was not suppressing it because he disintegrated that guy who was touching him. He then chased down Ichigos friends and the whole time they were being completely pressured. Rangiku even was trembling by being near him. His power was such that even though he was on another dimension he was still affecting the world around him.
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he is not holding back and he is surprised because she should have disappeared like that other human but she manages to hang on because she has reiatsu. He is clearly in the other dimension here. And again
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BTW I stil think Yamamoto is stronger than ichibei, he beat YH and ichibei didnt, that means something I think.
As I said, we don't know the circumstances behind his defeat last time. We actually don't even know if Yamaha actually defeated him. All we really know is they fought. Because if juha a tally used his shdrift A, than Yamaha would have stood no chance as well. So we need actual context behind his defeat.

Back to aizen though, you kinda just co firmed what I was talking about. aizen and ichigo were on another dimension. When ichigo came no one could feel his reiatsu. So his friends couldn't be crushed under it like with aizens. Aizen specifically explained that he lowered his reiatsu so it cod effect lower beings. So my point still stands.
 

ssjelf

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As I said, we don't know the circumstances behind his defeat last time. We actually don't even know if Yamaha actually defeated him. All we really know is they fought. Because if juha a tally used his shdrift A, than Yamaha would have stood no chance as well. So we need actual context behind his defeat.

Back to aizen though, you kinda just co firmed what I was talking about. aizen and ichigo were on another dimension. When ichigo came no one could feel his reiatsu. So his friends couldn't be crushed under it like with aizens. Aizen specifically explained that he lowered his reiatsu so it cod effect lower beings. So my point still stands.
Care to explain this
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You cant explain that with your reiatsu argument. Its flawed dude, get a new excuse. Aizen was not lowering it so some humans could feel him, in fact they couldnt anyway
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They just cant physically be around him, they wernt getting spirit crushed, they simply couldnt exist near him. And since when does regular spiritual pressure disintegrate people and bottles and the like, it never has, aizen is on the next dimension when that happens and that why it does. In fact in the latest chapter there is another example.
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he wasnt holding back here either and yet he can interact with 3rd dimensional beings. The same thing happened to Gin too BTW, but he still managed to stab Aizen
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The erasing is the 4th dimensional aspect of Aizen reiatsu, that much is pretty clear. If reiatsu is such a factor then explain this as well
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ichigo was on another dimension beyond aizen and he still took damage. And yama zan is more powerful than that because even his shiaki ability could have done that, as aizen said the flames wonderweiss stored up were enough to destroy all of the city they were in and more. Let alone the full power of enetsu jigoku. As it stands reiatsu is merely a plot device because so many times this rule is broken. yama bankai might not be as effective against aizen but they would still beat him.
 

ssjelf

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The only scan the directly proves he was holding back is this
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I cant explain that except to say that maybe aizen wasnt as good as he thought. I could also argue that what she was feeling wasnt reiatsu but just presence, as in aizens power was not allowing her to be near him.
 

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Taking this from the Can Yamamoto defeat Aizen? thread

There is no debate whatsoever that Yamamoto has the most destructive power in all Bleach thus far. His Shikai has enough power to wipe out cities / His Bankai has enough power to wipe out a dimension.

Yamamoto vs. Hog. Aizen comes down to Kubo's plans about the whole 'transcendent reatsu'. If it's "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu" then yes, Yamamoto is the weaker. However, if transcendent reatsu is simply another type of reatsu that unlocks 'off-limit' abilities, then no Yamamoto is the stronger.

And really, if "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu's" then Gin would have not tried to stop Kyoka Suigetsu, what's the point of stopping KS if Aizen's reatsu would trump Gin's anyways? Again, this is the same character who witnessed Aizen destroying the cleaner, yet his main worry was Kyoka Suigetsu, not "Aizen-sama's ever so godly reatsu".

Besides really if we talking about unability to sense reiatsu than Royd wasn't able to tell where the flame of East went aka he couldn't sense a reiatsu made flam. Neither was he able to see and sense east before Yama actualy allowed him to see it and even than Jugo needed to actualy think before comming up with the idea that the flame is reiatsu and he just came up with it and not actualy sensed the feeling of reiatsu.

This is one of those vague, gray areas in Bleach. Basically, Aizen declared that he was a transcendent being, but he never really gave an idea of what that means, mentioning only that his reiatsu could not be felt by anyone not on his level. However, then comes Ichigo and Aizen can't feel his reiatsu, which he tries to claim is because Ichigo gave up his reiatsu for physical power, but Ichigo pretty much disproves this instantly. Aizen could not fathom that Ichigo could also be a transcendent being so thats where we are stuck. You could say that Ichigo had gone to a level even higher than Aizen and thus were both transcendent beings, or you can say that there is no such thing as a transcendent being. Frankly, I believe that the whole transcendent being thing was just Aizen being full of himself as usual, but the story never really clarified itself one way or the other.

-------------------------------

Kyoka Suigetsu GG
Already countered, Aizen said that Ryujin Jakka is strongest zanpakuto.

Hogyoku GG
???

Reiatsu crush GG
Yamamoto being reiatsu crushed? I don't think so!

Huh? Ichigo had to go over a thousand year hyperbolic training to acheive his Final Form to defeat Aizen.
Yamamoto himself is way older than 1000 years. Driscoll said that Chojiro didn't used his bankai in 2000 years, when Chojiro learned his bankai, Yamamoto was already pretty old.

Hogyoku Aizen's spiritual power is to the point where it can't be sense.
Aizen implied that Ichigo was transcedent during Fake Karakura Town. Information we have say that transcedental reaitsu can't be sensed. And you know Ichigo's reiatsu wasn't sensed during Fake Karakura Town.

1. Unohana said that Ichigo has two times captain reiatsu based on path Ichigo made in Gargatana and his robe.
2. Aizen needed to come into contact with Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho to say "So this is your reiatsu".

It would be all ok, if Gin didn't trashed Ichigo.

I didn't see the same thing being said for Yamamoto.
Wrong! Besides really if we talking about unability to sense reiatsu than Royd wasn't able to tell where the flame of East went aka he couldn't sense a reiatsu made flam. Neither was he able to see and sense east before Yama actualy allowed him to see it and even than Jugo needed to actualy think before comming up with the idea that the flame is reiatsu and he just came up with it and not actualy sensed the feeling of reiatsu.

you don't understand how fights work in bleach. fights are mostly based off of reiatsu, more so than even skill. yama's flames are just his reiatsu in the form of flames. as aizen himself ecplained, a fight between shinigami is a fight between spiritual pressure. soi fong's shikai ability is death in 2 strokes. her ability is literally a death sentence if you get hit in the same spot. aizen survived it because his reiatsu was so much greater than hers. it's the same reason why ichigo was able to swat away aizens level 90 black coffin. ichigo originally couldn't even cut kenpachi because he wasn't releasin enough reiatsu when he attacked. the same will apply to aizen vs yama. aizen is so much more powerful, that the flames won't have the same effect it does on everyone else, period.
You are making one small mistake. According to Hogyoku Aizen he is not shinigami anymore. Plus, you would need to prove that Aizen reiatsu is greater than Yamamotos. And there is still a thing about Gin, And really, if "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu's" then Gin would have not tried to stop Kyoka Suigetsu, what's the point of stopping KS if Aizen's reatsu would trump Gin's anyways? Again, this is the same character who witnessed Aizen destroying the cleaner, yet his main worry was Kyoka Suigetsu, not "Aizen-sama's ever so godly reatsu".
 
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Ultimateone

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Care to explain this
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You cant explain that with your reiatsu argument. Its flawed dude, get a new excuse. Aizen was not lowering it so some humans could feel him, in fact they couldnt anyway
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They just cant physically be around him, they wernt getting spirit crushed, they simply couldnt exist near him. And since when does regular spiritual pressure disintegrate people and bottles and the like, it never has, aizen is on the next dimension when that happens and that why it does. In fact in the latest chapter there is another example.
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he wasnt holding back here either and yet he can interact with 3rd dimensional beings. The same thing happened to Gin too BTW, but he still managed to stab Aizen
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The erasing is the 4th dimensional aspect of Aizen reiatsu, that much is pretty clear. If reiatsu is such a factor then explain this as well
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ichigo was on another dimension beyond aizen and he still took damage. And yama zan is more powerful than that because even his shiaki ability could have done that, as aizen said the flames wonderweiss stored up were enough to destroy all of the city they were in and more. Let alone the full power of enetsu jigoku. As it stands reiatsu is merely a plot device because so many times this rule is broken. yama bankai might not be as effective against aizen but they would still beat him.
i'll reply to this later. i have evidence to back myself up as well. but for now i sleep.
 

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Taking this from the Can Yamamoto defeat Aizen? thread

There is no debate whatsoever that Yamamoto has the most destructive power in all Bleach thus far. His Shikai has enough power to wipe out cities / His Bankai has enough power to wipe out a dimension.

Yamamoto vs. Hog. Aizen comes down to Kubo's plans about the whole 'transcendent reatsu'. If it's "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu" then yes, Yamamoto is the weaker. However, if transcendent reatsu is simply another type of reatsu that unlocks 'off-limit' abilities, then no Yamamoto is the stronger.

And really, if "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu's" then Gin would have not tried to stop Kyoka Suigetsu, what's the point of stopping KS if Aizen's reatsu would trump Gin's anyways? Again, this is the same character who witnessed Aizen destroying the cleaner, yet his main worry was Kyoka Suigetsu, not "Aizen-sama's ever so godly reatsu".

Besides really if we talking about unability to sense reiatsu than Royd wasn't able to tell where the flame of East went aka he couldn't sense a reiatsu made flam. Neither was he able to see and sense east before Yama actualy allowed him to see it and even than Jugo needed to actualy think before comming up with the idea that the flame is reiatsu and he just came up with it and not actualy sensed the feeling of reiatsu.

This is one of those vague, gray areas in Bleach. Basically, Aizen declared that he was a transcendent being, but he never really gave an idea of what that means, mentioning only that his reiatsu could not be felt by anyone not on his level. However, then comes Ichigo and Aizen can't feel his reiatsu, which he tries to claim is because Ichigo gave up his reiatsu for physical power, but Ichigo pretty much disproves this instantly. Aizen could not fathom that Ichigo could also be a transcendent being so thats where we are stuck. You could say that Ichigo had gone to a level even higher than Aizen and thus were both transcendent beings, or you can say that there is no such thing as a transcendent being. Frankly, I believe that the whole transcendent being thing was just Aizen being full of himself as usual, but the story never really clarified itself one way or the other.

-------------------------------



Already countered, Aizen said that Ryujin Jakka is strongest zanpakuto.



???



Yamamoto being reiatsu crushed? I don't think so!



Yamamoto himself is way older than 1000 years. Driscoll said that Chojiro didn't used his bankai in 2000 years, when Chojiro learned his bankai, Yamamoto was already pretty old.



Aizen implied that Ichigo was transcedent during Fake Karakura Town. Information we have say that transcedental reaitsu can't be sensed. And you know Ichigo's reiatsu wasn't sensed during Fake Karakura Town.

1. Unohana said that Ichigo has two times captain reiatsu based on path Ichigo made in Gargatana and his robe.
2. Aizen needed to come into contact with Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho to say "So this is your reiatsu".

It would be all ok, if Gin didn't trashed Ichigo.



Wrong! Besides really if we talking about unability to sense reiatsu than Royd wasn't able to tell where the flame of East went aka he couldn't sense a reiatsu made flam. Neither was he able to see and sense east before Yama actualy allowed him to see it and even than Jugo needed to actualy think before comming up with the idea that the flame is reiatsu and he just came up with it and not actualy sensed the feeling of reiatsu.



You are making one small mistake. According to Hogyoku Aizen he is not shinigami anymore. Plus, you would need to prove that Aizen reiatsu is greater than Yamamotos. And there is still a thing about Gin, And really, if "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu's" then Gin would have not tried to stop Kyoka Suigetsu, what's the point of stopping KS if Aizen's reatsu would trump Gin's anyways? Again, this is the same character who witnessed Aizen destroying the cleaner, yet his main worry was Kyoka Suigetsu, not "Aizen-sama's ever so godly reatsu".
people really seem to struggle with the power level concept in bleach.
1. aizen was restricting his reiatsu, gin could hit him.
2. that wasn't his strongest form, either.
3. gin lost a part of his arm by aizen swiping at him.

i could go on further, but i won't.
Yamamoto can have all the hax abilities he wants. but it's not affecting aizen.
 

Forbidden Tale

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people really seem to struggle with the power level concept in bleach.
1. aizen was restricting his reiatsu, gin could hit him.
He didn't restrict his reiastu. Gin could hit him because he was strong enough to hit him. Transcedent reiatsu is just Aizen being full of himself and nothing more. Gin has knew about Aizen's reiatsu (seen him destroying cleaner) and still he only bothered about KS. Plus his plan worked, it's just that Hogyoku aknowledged him at that time.

2. that wasn't his strongest form, either.
True, but you know that Yamamoto is numeros times more powerful than Gin?

3. gin lost a part of his arm by aizen swiping at him.
Yes. Aizen is strong I'm not doubting that at all.

i could go on further, but i won't.
Yamamoto can have all the hax abilities he wants. but it's not affecting aizen.
When Gin could affect Aizen, I'm sure Yamamoto (a lot stronger than Gin) can affect stronger Aizen form.
 

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Taking this from the Can Yamamoto defeat Aizen? thread

There is no debate whatsoever that Yamamoto has the most destructive power in all Bleach thus far. His Shikai has enough power to wipe out cities / His Bankai has enough power to wipe out a dimension.

Yamamoto vs. Hog. Aizen comes down to Kubo's plans about the whole 'transcendent reatsu'. If it's "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu" then yes, Yamamoto is the weaker. However, if transcendent reatsu is simply another type of reatsu that unlocks 'off-limit' abilities, then no Yamamoto is the stronger.

And really, if "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu's" then Gin would have not tried to stop Kyoka Suigetsu, what's the point of stopping KS if Aizen's reatsu would trump Gin's anyways? Again, this is the same character who witnessed Aizen destroying the cleaner, yet his main worry was Kyoka Suigetsu, not "Aizen-sama's ever so godly reatsu".

Besides really if we talking about unability to sense reiatsu than Royd wasn't able to tell where the flame of East went aka he couldn't sense a reiatsu made flam. Neither was he able to see and sense east before Yama actualy allowed him to see it and even than Jugo needed to actualy think before comming up with the idea that the flame is reiatsu and he just came up with it and not actualy sensed the feeling of reiatsu.

This is one of those vague, gray areas in Bleach. Basically, Aizen declared that he was a transcendent being, but he never really gave an idea of what that means, mentioning only that his reiatsu could not be felt by anyone not on his level. However, then comes Ichigo and Aizen can't feel his reiatsu, which he tries to claim is because Ichigo gave up his reiatsu for physical power, but Ichigo pretty much disproves this instantly. Aizen could not fathom that Ichigo could also be a transcendent being so thats where we are stuck. You could say that Ichigo had gone to a level even higher than Aizen and thus were both transcendent beings, or you can say that there is no such thing as a transcendent being. Frankly, I believe that the whole transcendent being thing was just Aizen being full of himself as usual, but the story never really clarified itself one way or the other.

-------------------------------



Already countered, Aizen said that Ryujin Jakka is strongest zanpakuto.



???



Yamamoto being reiatsu crushed? I don't think so!



Yamamoto himself is way older than 1000 years. Driscoll said that Chojiro didn't used his bankai in 2000 years, when Chojiro learned his bankai, Yamamoto was already pretty old.



Aizen implied that Ichigo was transcedent during Fake Karakura Town. Information we have say that transcedental reaitsu can't be sensed. And you know Ichigo's reiatsu wasn't sensed during Fake Karakura Town.

1. Unohana said that Ichigo has two times captain reiatsu based on path Ichigo made in Gargatana and his robe.
2. Aizen needed to come into contact with Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho to say "So this is your reiatsu".

It would be all ok, if Gin didn't trashed Ichigo.



Wrong! Besides really if we talking about unability to sense reiatsu than Royd wasn't able to tell where the flame of East went aka he couldn't sense a reiatsu made flam. Neither was he able to see and sense east before Yama actualy allowed him to see it and even than Jugo needed to actualy think before comming up with the idea that the flame is reiatsu and he just came up with it and not actualy sensed the feeling of reiatsu.



You are making one small mistake. According to Hogyoku Aizen he is not shinigami anymore. Plus, you would need to prove that Aizen reiatsu is greater than Yamamotos. And there is still a thing about Gin, And really, if "transcendent reatsu > ALL reatsu's" then Gin would have not tried to stop Kyoka Suigetsu, what's the point of stopping KS if Aizen's reatsu would trump Gin's anyways? Again, this is the same character who witnessed Aizen destroying the cleaner, yet his main worry was Kyoka Suigetsu, not "Aizen-sama's ever so godly reatsu".
imma reply to this soon, plus imma finish this same debate with Gohara
 

ssjelf

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Yhwach didn't use the 'Almighty' against Yamamoto, so yes, Yama did indeed fight a weaker Yhwach
I was talking about YH 1000 years ago, not currently. The same goes for the person you were replying to. 1000 years ago YH had his full power at his disposal, he couldn't use it in this arc for so long because he was still recovering. With regards to saying that "Yama still lost to YH without without YH uesing almighty" I say that Yama fought and expended a lot of energy on Lyod royd. YH then came in and stole his bankai, something he didnt use on ichibei because he wanted to keep yama bankai for some reason.

Also this thread has been dead for more than a month. Nuh-nuh-nuh-NECROOOO!!!!
 

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I was talking about YH 1000 years ago, not currently. The same goes for the person you were replying to. 1000 years ago YH had his full power at his disposal, he couldn't use it in this arc for so long because he was still recovering. With regards to saying that "Yama still lost to YH without without YH uesing almighty" I say that Yama fought and expended a lot of energy on Lyod royd. YH then came in and stole his bankai, something he didnt use on ichibei because he wanted to keep yama bankai for some reason.

Also this thread has been dead for more than a month. Nuh-nuh-nuh-NECROOOO!!!!
Note to self, always recheck dates XD!

No, I too was talking about Yhwach 1000 years ago, no one had ever heard of the 'Almighty,' not Yama, not Ichibei, and certainly not anyone else.

Barely anyone knew about a lot of Yhwach's other special abilities either.
 

ssjelf

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Note to self, always recheck dates XD!

No, I too was talking about Yhwach 1000 years ago, no one had ever heard of the 'Almighty,' not Yama, not Ichibei, and certainly not anyone else.

Barely anyone knew about a lot of Yhwach's other special abilities either.
We don't know the details of the fight but it was yama who fought YH so perhaps only he would know. Also jugram seemed to say that he only couldn't activate his full power because of the prophecy of coming back. There is no reason to believe he got stronger because it was said that his power would return after 9 years and that if he used his full power before then he would destroy the quincy. There simply wasn't anywhere for him to gain this power. In fact he has had it since birth as shown when YH said the Sk had it. He only gained the power he had originally.
 

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We don't know the details of the fight but it was yama who fought YH so perhaps only he would know. Also jugram seemed to say that he only couldn't activate his full power because of the prophecy of coming back. There is no reason to believe he got stronger because it was said that his power would return after 9 years and that if he used his full power before then he would destroy the quincy. There simply wasn't anywhere for him to gain this power. In fact he has had it since birth as shown when YH said the Sk had it. He only gained the power he had originally.

Dude, the Royal Guard got their info on Yhwach from his fight with Yamamoto.
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Actually, current Yhwach is stronger than his 1000 year ago self.
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According to this, all Yhwach used in the past was his sword and basic Quincy shit. No spells, no Letz Still and no Schrift.
In fact, its very probable that the Schrifts didn't exist 1000 years ago.

Of course, Yhwach did indeed have the 'Almighty' 1000 years ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he used it against Yamamoto.
 

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Dude, the Royal Guard got their info on Yhwach from his fight with Yamamoto.
Actually, current Yhwach is stronger than his 1000 year ago self.

According to this, all Yhwach used in the past was his sword and basic Quincy shit. No spells, no Letz Still and no Schrift.
In fact, its very probable that the Schrifts didn't exist 1000 years ago.

Of course, Yhwach did indeed have the 'Almighty' 1000 years ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he used it against Yamamoto.
Yama may have known that YH could not use his full power at that time, he should be aware of the prophecy. Theres also the factor that Kubo made up YH's powers later to let him fight ichibei but from a plot standpoint he still had them before according to jugram.
 
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