If Naruto beat toneri

SasukeSixPack

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So basically original tenseigan of kaguya's son = watered down tenseigan from hamuras far descendant?

Basically any MS = Indras MS too right? along with every byakugan = hamuras and kaguyas right?

:lol

Any Tenseigan = Hamura's Tenseigan because Tenseigan = Tenseigan. You have no proof there is a difference between the two.

Every MS can't = Indra's MS because Indra didn't need eye transplant nor did he need another MS to unlock perfect susano'o while regular MS users of the uchiha do. The MS was watered down and passed down and accessible to all indra's descendants who were capable of awakening it. Don't try to compare MS to Tenseigan. I'm sure you don't see Otsutsuki and Hyuga walking around unlocking it and RSM.




Tenseigan gives the user rikudou senjutsu. This is just the attributes of the tenseigan's power.

Which is the same as saying the Doujutsu Tenseigan enhances the user with RSM, you don't exactly have to beat around the bush
 

NextGenNinja

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:lol

Any Tenseigan = Hamura's Tenseigan because Tenseigan = Tenseigan. You have no proof there is a difference between the two.

Every MS can't = Indra's MS because Indra didn't need eye transplant nor did he need another MS to unlock perfect susano'o while regular MS users of the uchiha do. The MS was watered down and passed down and accessible to all indra's descendants who were capable of awakening it. Don't try to compare MS to Tenseigan. I'm sure you don't see Otsutsuki and Hyuga walking around unlocking it and RSM.






Which is the same as saying the Doujutsu Tenseigan enhances the user with RSM, you don't exactly have to beat around the bush
What i mean by "other enhancements" is borrowed power like naruto. That guy borrows power like there's no tomorrow.
 

SenseiSama

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If Hagoromo = Hamura then you're saying that Hamura was more powerful than JJ Madara which is false.

Hamura can't be stronger than the strongest Jin bar Hagoromo.

Wrong, BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke didn't need the Juubi to be above JJ Obito because their power was authentic, the same logic applies to Otsutsuki. Hamura was born with half of Kaguya's power which puts him above Naruto and Sasuke who were only given half of Hagoromo's power.

It's simple math

Hamura + Hagoromo = Kaguya

Naruto + Sasuke = something close to Hagoromo


The Tenseigan was Originally Hamura's power so yes, Toneri had Hamura's power or better yet the MAJORITY of it.

Again you're ignoring the fact Toneri's power isn't authentic. The Rinnegan was Hagoromo's power yet SM Naruto surpassed Nagato's level at the age of 15, eye power depends on the user and Hamura's Tenseigan would be way above Toneri's because it's originally his dojutsu.

Naruto's Gene's being diluted means what? Otsutsuki are Kage level. Meaning there are shinobi that could give them a run for their money.

Genes mean everything, Madara's genes allow him to use the Rinnegan better than Nagato and Sasuke's genes allow him to use Rinnegan better than Madara. Likewise, Naruto's genes allow him to use Senjutsu better than JJ Obito. See the pattern ?

Naruto and Sasuke were never born with Kaguya's power which means they will never have the body to utilize their feats on the level of Hagoromo. (i.e : reshaping the planet)

They were only given a fraction of what Hagoromo possessed which means their strength would still be inferior to Hamura's because he inherited the same portion of Kaguya's chakra as Hagoromo.
 
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Ansatsuken

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:lol

Any Tenseigan = Hamura's Tenseigan because Tenseigan = Tenseigan. You have no proof there is a difference between the two.

Every MS can't = Indra's MS because Indra didn't need eye transplant nor did he need another MS to unlock perfect susano'o while regular MS users of the uchiha do. The MS was watered down and passed down and accessible to all indra's descendants who were capable of awakening it. Don't try to compare MS to Tenseigan. I'm sure you don't see Otsutsuki and Hyuga walking around unlocking it and RSM.






Which is the same as saying the Doujutsu Tenseigan enhances the user with RSM, you don't exactly have to beat around the bush

Same can be said between Sasuke and Madara with Rinnegan. Rinnegan is Rinnegan except Sasuke's own had some added value.

But here we only talked about eyes and sure Sasuke's all attributes including Rinnegan is superior compare to Non JJ Rinnegan Madara

What differentiate two same users is their power level.

Hashirama is superior than Madara bcus of power level and not bcus of same trait.

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Hamura already had RSM without need to enter Tenseigan chakra mode
 
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SasukeSixPack

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Tenseigan not exclusive to Hamura, its not been stated in DB/Movie.

Another thing Toneri never had Hamura's chakra just Otsutsuki chakra. Thats mean many Otsutsuki inside his bloodline/clan can awaken Tenseigan with requisite that is Byakugan.

Their power can be varies depends on expertise and battle capability..

Unlike Rinnegan case where you need Indra and Ashura chakra/Hago directly.
Proof of red?

Nice fanfic but Hamura's chakra was Otsutsuki chakra...he was an Otsutsuki by birth. Toneri was a direct descendant of Hamura, that's why he was able to gain the Tenseigan. It's not that any old Otsutsuki could just take Hyuga eyes, transplant them and vuala! they magically have the power to move the moon. NO...The hyuga are HAMURA's descendants as well...what you fail to realize is that the tenseigan is unique to Hamura and his descendants very similar to the way the Rin'egan is unique to Hagoromo and his descendats.

You need the Otsutsuki decendant of Hamura to get eyes from a Huyga descendant of Hamura to get Tenseigan. Same with needing Senju and Uchiha to get Rin'negan.

What i mean by "other enhancements" is borrowed power like naruto. That guy borrows power like there's no tomorrow.

Don't rustle there are idiots who say the power he borrowed is apart of his lifeforce and was originally his

But I agree. He didn't leech foreign power like Naruto.
 

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Where is this mentioned
Naruto + Sasuke = JJ Madara
Scans please.

And what DNA dilution, he's Ashura Transmigrant period. Keep your BS to yourself.

Well here Hago states that madara was still trying to get closer to him & Kaguya's power. Hago gave naruto & sasuke the power up so they could stand a chance against madara at his current level.
 

neosmith500

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:lol

Any Tenseigan = Hamura's Tenseigan because Tenseigan = Tenseigan. You have no proof there is a difference between the two.
So RSM Powered tenseigan= borrowed tenseigan used by a watered down descendant , kool story bro.
 

Ansatsuken

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Proof of red?

Nice fanfic but Hamura's chakra was Otsutsuki chakra...he was an Otsutsuki by birth. Toneri was a direct descendant of Hamura, that's why he was able to gain the Tenseigan. It's not that any old Otsutsuki could just take Hyuga eyes, transplant them and vuala! they magically have the power to move the moon. NO...The hyuga are HAMURA's descendants as well...what you fail to realize is that the tenseigan is unique to Hamura and his descendants very similar to the way the Rin'egan is unique to Hagoromo and his descendats.

You need the Otsutsuki decendant of Hamura to get eyes from a Huyga descendant of Hamura to get Tenseigan. Same with needing Senju and Uchiha to get Rin'negan.

Read the color part.


FF-Suzaku (Translator)

Tenseigan Clarifications

About a month has passed since the film premiered and a lot more information about the movie is out there now on Japanese wikis, blogs, yahoo answers, etc., so I thought I'd post some of the more detailed information. I'm posting it here instead of in the article as I have yet to see the movie, so I can't completely confirm all of this information.

So, basically, the term Tenseigan refers to two different things in the film, which has caused a lot of confusion.



The first is known as the Energy Vessel (エネルギー体, Enerugī-tai), and is the Ōtsutsuki clan's greatest treasure. This is the altar into which the Ōtsutsuki Clan had been sealing their eyes for a thousand years, and "Hamura's Tenseigan" (ハムラの転生眼, Hamura no Tenseigan) is its core -- which of course indicates that Hamura had awakened the Tenseigan at some point before sealing it in the altar. The Energy Vessel apparantly uses his Tenseigan to act as a giant senjutsu chakra engine that collects and amplifies natural energy, and the Ōtsutsuki clan used the Vessel as an energy source to power everything on the moon, including the countless autonomous puppets that served them.




Hamura had vowed to Hagoromo that he would wait a thousand years before judging mankind. The Branch House of the Ōtsutsuki clan interpreted this as a condemnation and believed that the Tenseigan was meant to be used as a weapon to destroy humanity for using chakra as a weapon -- though, in truth, Hamura's intent was probably for the clan to use it to restore the Earth in the event that mankind misused chakra and destroyed the world. The Branch House and Main House eventually destroyed each other in a civil war (apparantly sparked by Madara's theft of the Gedo Statue) during which the Energy Vessel was used as a weapon and apparantly became deactivated. Toneri (only a child at the time), heir to the Branch House, was the sole survivor, and reactivated the Energy Vessel at some point before carrying out his plan to fulfill Hamura's vow.

The Energy Vessel can apparantly only be touched by those with the "undiluted chakra of Hamura," in other words the Ōtsutsuki and Hyuga clans, and even Hinata, who was a direct descendant of Hamura, was only able to destroy it by sharing her chakra with Naruto for a combination attack.



The second is the actual Tenseigan dojutsu activated by Toneri, and Hamura before him. After Toneri transplants Hanabi's Byakugan, they react to his Ōtsutsuki chakra and transform into Tenseigan. Contrary to early reports and interpretations, this apparantly has nothing to do with the countless Byakugan sealed in the Energy Vessel altar and Toneri's Tenseigan isn't channeling their power (rather, the Energy Vessel housing Hamura's Tenseigan is, hence the confusion).



So, not unlike the Rinnegan, it's actually awakened by Hamura's two bloodlines uniting (Toneri's Ōtsutsuki chakra and Hanabi's pure Byakugan). Hanabi's Byakugan are especially pure in that, as an heiress to the Hyuga Clan's Main Branch, her bloodline is undiluted. The same is true for Hinata and Hiashi.

In addition to all of Toneri's dojutsu that have already been recorded elsewhere, it seems that he can probably use Senjutsu... which probably isn't surprising, given the appearance of his Tenseigan Chakra Mode and its similarities to Six Paths Sage Mode (Truthseeker Orbs, flight, etc.). At any rate, he animates a giant stone statue of Hamura to fight Kurama, and animating inorganic material certainly falls within the realm of Sage Mode (see: Kabuto). This is speculated to be the way their version of the Puppetmaster Technique works, as they're powered by the Tenseigan Energy Vessel which apparantly generates senjutsu chakra.


Anyway, hopefully the impending English theatrical release helps clear up things further... and hopefully we get some more concrete details on this stuff. The movie databook was unfortunately a bit light on details.

Not exclusive to Hamura.


NO...The hyuga are HAMURA's descendants as well...what you fail to realize is that the tenseigan is unique to Hamura and his descendants very similar to the way the Rin'egan is unique to Hagoromo and his descendats.

Like I said in my previous comment "only Otsutsuki from Toneri's bloodline/clan can awaken it." Hamura's clan in the entirety. Wut is the need to tells something I already knew..

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Darth AniCetuS

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Well here Hago states that madara was still trying to get closer to him & Kaguya's power. Hago gave naruto & sasuke the power up so they could stand a chance against madara at his current level.

Hago gave them power so that they can beat JJ Madara.
 

To Whatever

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Kinda like Kaguya?

Pretty much.

Kaguya was burning massive amounts of chakra wastefully to the point zetsu had to tell her to conserve. She even over-prepared against Momo and Kinshiki (one of which had a lot battle experience on par with Sasuke).

I'm sure back in her day, teleportation to the lava dimension was enough to get rid of any threat. Hell, her presence alone was probably enough for humanity.
 

SasukeSixPack

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Wrong, BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke didn't need the Juubi to be above JJ Obito because their power was authentic, the same logic applies to Otsutsuki. Hamura was born with half of Kaguya's power which puts him above Naruto and Sasuke who were only given half of Hagoromo's power.

It's simple math

Hamura + Hagoromo = Kaguya

Naruto + Sasuke = something close to Hagoromo




Again you're ignoring the fact Toneri's power isn't authentic. The Rinnegan was Hagoromo's power yet SM Naruto surpassed Nagato's level at the age of 15, eye power depends on the user and Hamura's Tenseigan would be way above Toneri's because it's originally his dojutsu.



Genes mean everything, Madara's genes allow him to use the Rinnegan better than Nagato and Sasuke's genes allow him to use Rinnegan better than Madara. Likewise, Naruto's genes allow him to use Senjutsu better than JJ Obito. See the pattern ?

Naruto and Sasuke were never born with Kaguya's power which means they will never have the body to utilize their feats on the level of Hagoromo. (i.e : reshaping the planet)

They were only given a fraction of what Hagoromo possessed which means their strength would still be inferior to Hamura's because he inherited the same portion of Kaguya's chakra as Hagoromo.

The bold is actually wrong. The Kyuubi makes up MAJORITY of the Juubi's chakra MAJORITY of which was missing along with the Hachibi plus an added Rin'negan and proof of it is the obvious fact that the Naruto and Sasuke that beat JJ Obito wouldn't even Scratch JJ Madara who had the full package.

The difference between Hagoromo's power and Hamura's power is very obvious.

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Even though Hamura helped to seal Kaguya, his powers and the powers of his descendants was not even needed to reseal her again. Naruto and Sasuke equate to the power needed to stop Kaguya and their power reflects Hagoromo's ALONE.

It's more like this.

Hagoromo and Hamura = Kaguya

Naruto and Sasuke (together, Hagoromo's power) = Kaguya

Whats missing/uncessary? Hamura's power.



The red is very wrong. SM Naruto never surpassed Nagatos power. Nagato just wasn't trying to kill Naruto and by the time he had to go through the even HARDER process of capturing Naruto he had already used up alot of chakra destroying the village and what not. Nagato's Ri'nnegan is really Madara's which Hagoromo himself said was his chakra. The user doesn't matter, the eyes are still Hagoromo's.



No. Again the Rin'negan wasn't Nagato's so he is out of the equation. Madara's and Sasuke's use and awakening of the Rin'negan was because they were transmigrants and had Senju and Uchiha DNA (however Sasuke got the power up Madara never got to recieve making him stronger). Naruto used Senjutsu better than JJ obito because he was a Transmigrant of Ashura. It has nothing to do with Genes. Itachi had the best genes on the uchiha market but was still inferior to MAdara in the end because MAdara is a transmirgant.

Saying Naruto and Sasuke will never be able to user powers on Hagoromo's level is a very ignorant thing to say.

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Kaguya's powers were passed down to Hagoromo

Hagoromo passed on his power to his sons

The Transmigrants of his sons inherited this power.

That's how it works.

Naruto and Sasuke were born Transmigrants of Ashura and Indra who were to inherit Hagoromo's power (Gift) to complete them as transmigrants and make them = Hagoromo's power. Hamura's power before he got the Tenseigan was inferior to Hagoromo whether or not he had RSM because RSM is only half of Hagromo's power.

Hamura: RSM + Byakugan

Hagoromo: RSM + Rin'negan (stronger).


Same can be said between Sasuke and Madara with Rinnegan. Rinnegan is Rinnegan except Sasuke's own had some added value.

But here we only talked about eyes and sure Sasuke's all attributes including Rinnegan is superior compare to Non JJ Rinnegan Madara

What differentiate two same users is their power level.

Hashirama is superior than Madara bcus of power level and not bcus of same trait.

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Hamura already had RSM without need to enter Tenseigan chakra mode

Hamura: RSM + Byakugan

Hagoromo: RSM + Rin'negan (stronger)

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand that Hagoromo was stronger and not equal to his brother. We can't contrast Hagoromo's descendants with Hagoromo and Hamura because we are only comparing the descendants of one brother to both brothers.


So RSM Powered tenseigan= borrowed tenseigan used by a watered down descendant , kool story bro.

Except the RSM Toneri had was also a RSM Powered Tenseigan so your post failed.
 

Ansatsuken

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Hamura: RSM + Byakugan

Hagoromo: RSM + Rin'negan (stronger).




Hamura: RSM + Byakugan

Hagoromo: RSM + Rin'negan (stronger)

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand that Hagoromo was stronger and not equal to his brother. We can't contrast Hagoromo's descendants with Hagoromo and Hamura because we are only comparing the descendants of one brother to both brothers.




Except the RSM Toneri had was also a RSM Powered Tenseigan so your post failed.

Where did I said Hamura stronger than Hagoromo? At best Hamura is 20% below Hagoromo given he not awaken Tenseigan yet and still without TSB.

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You failed to take into consideration the difference in PL. And yeah Toneri without Tenseigan is weaker than Naruto. But that not how to draw a conclusion on Hamura and Hago power gap.

 
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SasukeSixPack

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Where did I said Hamura stronger than Hagoromo? At best Hamura is 20% below Hagoromo given he not awaken Tenseigan yet and still without TSB.

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You failed to take into consideration the difference in PL.

Pre-Jin Hagromo yes.
 

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No point going back and forth with this nutjob guys. #lostcause
 
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