Then that's exactly what the Manga must be saying.
So you agree that chakra spent on ash bone > dimensional shifting.
If one uses up too much of their chakra then yes, they will change.
And 'too much' is only shown to be to the point when they are on their very last reserves, a time where they can't use their chakra heavy jutsu and beging to breathe heavily.
The Manga doesn't falsify this claim so bringing up this point doesn't even matter.
sure it does, naruto blitzes kaguya who's on another level than madara, and who's someone that can not only mentally react to sasuke's chidori but also dodge it.
I understood what you typed perfectly, and it's irrelevant to the discussion. Whether or not Kaguya doesn't absorb chakra is irrelevant. Whether or not she ascends to a higher level by absorbing a larger amount is the discussion at hand here because we are talking about Naruto being to stall against Kaguya as a measure of his strength. If all he can do is stall until she wears herself out then using this as evidence that he overpowers Madara with ease w/ Sasuke's help is based on nothing as the two statements don't connect. I mean, you can argue that he keeps on spamming clones until she uses up all her chakra but then you'd have to explain how that means Madara loses.
The only reason he is capable of stalling with all of his clones is because of how powerful he is. IF they were weak enough, she'd just smash them all with no effort like kimimaro did. Because she has to use way more of her own reserves to cancel out his own reserves shows that they aren't on two different levels and it shows that had she not had the chakra absorbing ability, she goes down when her chakra levels get low enough for naruto to blitz her (that's assuming her abilities even decreased in the first place).
So go back, remember what this discussion is about and then get back to me.
Hey you're the one who overlooked my argument, don't get mad at me for that. IF you want to say 'this doesn't matter' then you have to explain it, if I could read your mind we wouldn't have to be posting anything right?
Was she overpowering them? Yes. That's all that matters here. You can't sit here and use this as an argument for them stomping Madara when they can't do anything to Kaguya nor can they actually match her. Playing diversion tactics and escaping from her attacks doesn't constitute them overpowering Madara. The two actions are completely unrelated.
No, that's not at all what matters, the degree in which she's overpowering them matters. If she's on a completely different level, naruto can't even clash with her, she just runs right through him, if they are close, then he'd be able to fight her off for some time and lose if she's overall stronger.
And then Kaguya refills her chakra and continues spanking him. If a full power Naruto and a full power Kaguya fight, and all he can do is basically run away then you sound ridiculous arguing that this translates into a stomp if they were to fight Madara. I can pretty much guarantee you that no measure of feats (the correct way, not the BS way you are trying to compare them), portrayal or author's intent would lead to anyone coming to the conclusion that Naruto and Sasuke stomp Madara w/o their VoTE power ups.
THe portrayal is that naruto held his own against KAguya. IF he wasn't capable of doing that, he wouldn't land hits on her or force her to run back to her own dimension. If he couldn't do that, then she wouldn't have to expend so much chakra just to defeat a portion of his clones, it would have been kimimaro vs kn0 naruto's clone army all over again. THAT'S the portrayal argument.
If you want to use feats, Kaguya wasn't huffing and puffing when naruto blitzed her, she wasn't showing any signs of being at the point where exhaustion affects her physical abilities, yet she still gets blitzed. She's on a completely different level than madara, so even if for some crazy inconsistent reason her abilities dropped to madara's level, naruto still does the same to madara. More feats would be naruto's clones were able to handle madara's limbos. That's the feats argument.
A little short? Considering she can bust Susanoo with his chakra fists while Naruto can't bust Susanoo without something much stronger than his regular bijuu dama, it's safe to say that Kaguya wasn't exerting anywhere close to her full power when they clashed and he still got overpowered so this isn't even a feat.
Not only are naruto's chakra fists weaker, but she actually hit his susanoo, naruto never hit sasuke's susanoo with a single punch. Not only that, but if you're going to use the whole "abilities got weaker due to exhaustion" argument, then naruto's abilities would have gotten weaker at VoTe as well since it was even stated he used a ton of his chakra during the war, which explains that. Finally, susanoo was never directly hit by bijuudama, if clashing a bijuudama with chidori was the same as being hit by it, naruto and sasuke would die every time they clash rasengan and chidori.
And if you want to argue otherwise then you are going to have to tell me how Naruto's chakra fists match a full forced chakra fist barrage from Kaguya's when Naruto's own Avatar can't even bust Susanoo and those chakra arms are nothing but partial transformations of his Avatar.
been over this.
-He started off with diversion tactics.
-Then he used Kokuo's chakra.
-Then he spammed clones.
-Then he used Bijuu RS.
Naruto didn't even use more and more powerful jutsu against her. He didn't do anything against her because it'd all be useless so why even bring this up?
how in th world is that not more and more power? Diversion tactics: a few transformed clones
Kokuo's power > a few transformed clones
uncountable army of RSM clones >>> kokuo's power
bijuu rasenshuriken >> uncountable army of RSM clones
Stop. The only reason she would run out of chakra before them is because her techniques use a ridiculous amount of chakra. The only part Naruto and Sasuke's "strength" played in that fight is that they were strong enough to survive against her attacks. Didn't even claim the bold so why don't you do us both a favor and read before you reply? I'm actually stating the exact opposite. Kaguya had the upper hand the entire time and you are claiming that since neither was getting injured or killed, it was a stalemate. I mean, you can call it whatever you want but the facts aren't going to change.
you did make that implicit claim, go back and reread what you wrote, you're saying only a kill is making notable headway in a fight.
The only reason she uses techniques that require ridiculous amounts of chakra is because she is forced to do so. IF they weren't able to hold her off, she'd be able to effortlessly dismantle them. They didn't just survive against her attacks they landed hits on her too. That doesn't happen, especially in a 1 vs 1 fight if both you an your opponent are of different levels.
You are going to have to show that Kaguya has access to the Six Paths techniques if you want to include this into your argument. Rinne Sharingan and Rinnegan are two different Dojutsu, one comes from the other. The Six Paths Jutsu didn't exist until Hagoromo made them. Kaguya having the original eye doesn't mean that she had those specific jutsu when she easily could've either chosen not to learn them or it's something that Hagoromo himself created thus you'd need Hagoromo's Rinnegan to perform said jutsu.
Why do I have to show that? She's the mother of all chakra, has zetsu also controlling her, has the rinnegan, has had it for far longer than anyone else in the manga, and has black zetsu there to help her use them. The burden of proof is on you to show that she doesn't have the six paths tech.
And the bold is a perfect example of a strategy that'd fail hard against Madara or even against Sasuke himself, yet you are still sitting here arguing that Naruto doing these things to Kaguya means that he would obliterate Madara just because he's weaker. :lol It should be clear how ridiculous you sound by now.
The only ridiculous one is you when you claim that kaguya doesn't have all of madara's abilities, and when you ignore portrayal.
What would happen if Naruto had used clone spam against Sasuke's PS during their fight at VoTE? Oh wait, Sasuke would've obliterated the vast majority of them in a single hit yet he's not on Kaguya's level. If Naruto fought Sasuke at VoTe the same exact way he fought Kaguya down to the action Sasuke would've fodderized him with the lowest of difficulties.
Madara has the same Susano and techs just as widespread as that. Meaning he'd easily counter clone spam without even budging an inch, so how exactly does this mean that NS wreck Madara? :lol Come on now.
Why would he have obliterated them in a single hit when kaguya (in her weakest state) can dodge his PS blade and at the same time counter with chakra punches? They'd easily dodge his slashes, at best he'd be taking out maybe one at a time if he'd focus on them. Not only that, but obviously a different opponent means a different strategy, it doesn't mean that the portrayal changes at all.
Same with madara
Lol Wow.
1. Kaguya's physical abilities are irrelevant here when Madara's moveset makes it that he doesn't need to keep up with Naruto. Not like Naruto can blitz someone on his level in reaction speed anyway.
2. If you were to read the Manga with an unbiased mindset then I wouldn't have to explain. The following are Naruto's "feats" against Kaguya.
-Spamming clones.
-Overpowering her chakra arms once with Kokuo's chakra,.
-Forcing her to use Yomotsu Hirasaka by using Ittai Rendan.
Spamming clones doesn't work against Madara as he has multiple techniques that'd eradicate his ridiculous clone spam in a single shot. Kokuo's chakra isn't going to help him against Madara's Susanoo or his Chibaku Tensei or his Shinra Tensei or his Bijuu dama. And if Naruto tries using Ittai Rendan against Madara then CT obliterates him or a single swing of his Susanoo's blade results in a dead Naruto. Not to mention the offense used against Kaguya can't even do jack to Madara due to the Gudo Dama and/or Susanoo.
The only thing you have is Bijuu RS, but even that isn't leading to Madara's defeat so tell me more about how they stomp.
Right, so now you're saying that since the portrayal argument doesn't work for your case, you're making a feat-based argument, and I've tried to stay away from that because we haven't seen that madara in action. But if you want to go and argue that madara has those things, then why wouldn't naruto's bijuu rasenshuriken destroy his PS? Why would madara's multiple tech erradicate naruto's clone spam? If you want to make a whole verses based on feats then I'm up for it, but I think we should either open a new thread and say "feats argument only" or start replying to just that.
I don't think I have to tell you this, but this is Naruto. Not DBZ. :lol Abilities and moveset matter. So if you are going to say Naruto and Sasuke stomp Madara, do us all a favor and actually explain how instead of using this terrible transitive logic.
in the case where abilities of ninja are not known, or they are not fleshed out, then tiers are the main thing that matters. The transitive logic is unfortunately how the manga gets especially in the end. That's why we have things like EMS Sasuke using none of his abilities against one-eyed rinnegan madara. Does that mean the fight would have ended differently if madara did use all his abilities? No, it's portrayed that madara is the stronger of the two. It's he same thing here, then there's the fact that ability stack and comparison is not transitive of tiers unless they are the sole weakness of another person like senjutsu is to onmyouton.
But if you want to just argue feats, lets argue feats, i'm up for it I just want to know that that's where you are coming from.
Irrelevant considering Madara didn't even try to fight them.
Fighting her off? Naruto spamming clones and forcing Kaguya to escape into her portal once doesn't translate to "fighting her off". It translates to Naruto surviving because Kaguya can't mow down his clones in a single shot like people far weaker than her would be able to do. I.E. Madara and Sasuke.
