If Kaguya never appeared

elsepa

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And we had Kakashi , Sakura, Naruto , Sasuke Vs 3 eyed Madara

Obviously after a while the hokages except for Minato ( who has no arms) would join the battle . So i propose :


Scenario 1 : Kakashi , Sakura, Naruto , Sasuke VS 3 eyed Madara ( Can use all of Nagato abilities but to a much bigger scale in addition to his own)

Scenario 2 : Kakashi , Sakura, Naruto , Sasuke, Hashirama , Tobirama and Hiruzen Vs 3 eyed Madara ( same as above)
 

Kunihi

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The team beat someone way stronger so the same thing happens except with much less difficulty.
 

Deadlift

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Madara wins scenario 1 and loses scenario 2 IMO
 

rinnegan human puppet

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people always bring up kaguya to say team 7 would've sealed madara, but forget kakashi got a huge boost which would be non existent in a scenario where kaguya never appeared and they had to face 3 eye jj madara. kaguya got sealed strictly because of kakashi and his kamui. a much weaker madara (1eye)was already shown contering a seal attempt, with limbo, limbo swap and shinra tensei sealing madara would be next to impossible. that being said madara takes both scenarios.
 

Caesartheape

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people always bring up kaguya to say team 7 would've sealed madara, but forget kakashi got a huge boost which would be non existent in a scenario where kaguya never appeared and they had to face 3 eye jj madara. kaguya got sealed strictly because of kakashi and his kamui. a much weaker madara (1eye)was already shown contering a seal attempt, with limbo, limbo swap and shinra tensei sealing madara would be next to impossible. that being said madara takes both scenarios.
Read the thread, Kakashi is here.

So you agree Madara gets raped :bdpf:
 

Kunihi

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people always bring up kaguya to say team 7 would've sealed madara, but forget kakashi got a huge boost which would be non existent in a scenario where kaguya never appeared and they had to face 3 eye jj madara. kaguya got sealed strictly because of kakashi and his kamui. a much weaker madara (1eye)was already shown contering a seal attempt, with limbo, limbo swap and shinra tensei sealing madara would be next to impossible. that being said madara takes both scenarios.
Naruto and Sasuke weren't using anything close to what they used against Kaguya when they fought one-eyed madara and Madara was getting crushed. When they fought two eye'd, Naruto's entire focus was on protecting the alliance. Madara's limbos are worthless here when naruto can stop each with a shadow clone. Kaguya had all the rinnegan powers, she chose not to use them because they'd be a waste of time so shinra tensei isn't helping madara either. She's so far above Madara that her hair was more of a threat to Naruto and Sasuke than he was.

Kaguya is on a completely different level than madara as stated in the manga. Kakashi was only really needed after she absorbed a ton of chakra and became way stronger. Before that, she was getting blitzed by naruto.

Madara doesn't stand a chance.
 
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Oblivionx

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if kakashi doesn't get DMS then madara would have won. And hokages don't really matter in this scale of battle other than planning may be...
if kakashi did get DMS then team wins as they defeated even kaguya..
 

Oblivionx

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if kakashi doesn't get DMS then madara would have won. And hokages don't really matter in this scale of battle other than planning may be...
if kakashi did get DMS then team wins as they defeated even kaguya..
 

Eng nawashi

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I really don't see how they beat Madara if he buffed himself and his susano w/IT chakra.
 

NarutoX28

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im assuming kakashi isnt DMS. if he is the team wins high diff, if not the team gets violated both scenarios.

DMS Kakashi + Team 7 literally demolished Kaguya within a few panels when she was at her strongest which is superior to Kaguya after her revival who is superior to 3 Eyed Juubidara.

Juubidara gets wrecked.
 

KidGamer65

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Naruto and Sasuke weren't using anything close to what they used against Kaguya when they fought one-eyed madara and Madara was getting crushed. When they fought two eye'd, Naruto's entire focus was on protecting the alliance. Madara's limbos are worthless here when naruto can stop each with a shadow clone. Kaguya had all the rinnegan powers, she chose not to use them because they'd be a waste of time so shinra tensei isn't helping madara either. She's so far above Madara that her hair was more of a threat to Naruto and Sasuke than he was.

Kaguya is on a completely different level than madara as stated in the manga. Kakashi was only really needed after she absorbed a ton of chakra and became way stronger. Before that, she was getting blitzed by naruto.

Madara doesn't stand a chance.

Yes. After she used up the majority of her chakra. But when she had chakra Naruto and Sasuke were practically doing nothing to her. :lol I take that back. They were literally doing nothing to her.


They might win, but Madara standing no chance at all is wank.
 

Kunihi

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Yes. After she used up the majority of her chakra. But when she had chakra Naruto and Sasuke were practically doing nothing to her. :lol I take that back. They were literally doing nothing to her.
What are you talking about? Naruto alone landed hits on her even when she had the majority of her chakra, if you want to claim that's not doing anything to her, then she didn't do anything to naruto since no damage was inflicted up him all she did was hit shadow clones.

When she got blitzed by naruto, she was still on the level that she could easily react to Sasuke's teleportation something madara never shown the ability to do, and she could not only dodge Sasuke's PS, but also destroy it at the same time. Based on the juubito fight, that means she must have had a huge speed gap between her and sasuke in order to do that, while Madara didn't even have a speed gap.

Finally, it was never stated that she used the majority of her chakra, only that she needed to get more back in the genesis dimension, and her speed and power are affected by chakra loss, the same would apply to naruto who had lost a lot of chakra while fighting her as well. Either way she'd still be on a completely different level than Madara.

They might win, but Madara standing no chance at all is wank.
It's not wank at all when Kaguya is on a completely different level than him and needs to gain another powerup in order for kakashi to be required to seal her.
 

elsepa

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Btw Kakashi is not DMS , its normal Kakashi (aka no sharingan)
 

Unorthodox

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Yes. After she used up the majority of her chakra. But when she had chakra Naruto and Sasuke were practically doing nothing to her. :lol I take that back. They were literally doing nothing to her.

Vice versa basically.

Only thing she did to Naruto was grab him with her hair and portal jump behind him she did no damage Naruto actually got a punch in with sexy jutsu and made her ass flee with a barrage of clones.

SMH Kaguya or the Manga did not ever once hint she got blitz because her chakra was low especially since her showing against Sasuke was practically identical to when her chakra was at max and vice versa the latter use chakra to. Even after she gained chakra she could not avoid Kakashi's attack so your point becomes even more moot.

They might win, but Madara standing no chance at all is wank.

Kidgamer - They only beat Kaguya who is a tiers above the strongest in NV because they can seal now an opponent who each alone is on a solid footing with bar immortality stands a chance gtfoh
 

KidGamer65

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What are you talking about? Naruto alone landed hits on her even when she had the majority of her chakra, if you want to claim that's not doing anything to her, then she didn't do anything to naruto since no damage was inflicted up him all she did was hit shadow clones.

He landed a hit on her, and it did nothing so there's nothing to debate on that topic. And if that fight had dragged on Naruto would end up with his clones destroyed while Kaguya has suffered no damage at all. Lol


When she got blitzed by naruto, she was still on the level that she could easily react to Sasuke's teleportation something madara never shown the ability to do, and she could not only dodge Sasuke's PS, but also destroy it at the same time. Based on the juubito fight, that means she must have had a huge speed gap between her and sasuke in order to do that, while Madara didn't even have a speed gap.

Nope.

-Dodged Sasuke's teleportation.
-Then switched worlds again, which drains a lot of chakra.

Meaning when she got blitzed she was even weaker. Which is why Naruto can react, but not dodge, Sasuke's teleportation while Kaguya can evade it. The feats of her busting Susanoo are valid, valid but they don't prove that they demolish Madara with ease.

Finally, it was never stated that she used the majority of her chakra, only that she needed to get more back in the genesis dimension, and her speed and power are affected by chakra loss, the same would apply to naruto who had lost a lot of chakra while fighting her as well. Either way she'd still be on a completely different level than Madara.

If she couldn't maintain her ash bones and needed to restore chakra then the majority was most likely used up. Either way it doesn't matter as the whole point is that she was weakened. And no, the same doesn't apply to Naruto considering Naruto literally showed no decline in performance from start to finish and claiming that he did is going to require some actual evidence.

It's not wank at all when Kaguya is on a completely different level than him and needs to gain another powerup in order for kakashi to be required to seal her.

Yes, it's wank when you using Kaguya as some kind of benchmark makes no sense when they can't do anything serious to her without Kakashi's help. Naruto and Sasuke on their own were already failing hard against regular Kaguya yet somehow that display means that they wreck Madara? :lol

-The first part of the fight Sasuke's best attack was getting one shotted and their first seal attempt was thwarted.
-The second part was Naruto solo vs. Kaguya, and he was only surviving by spamming clones as a distraction. He couldn't actually do anything to her. All he did was hit her once with Kairiki Muso. Then he forced her to escape his Ittai Rendan, which still doesn't count as actually doing anything to her.
-The penultimate part consisted of Sasuke playing decoy and getting raped, Naruto blitzing Kaguya and destabilizing the Bijuu Chakra only for them to be left (seemingly) helpless against the giant Juubi chakra monster until Kakashi comes and saves the day.
-Then the final act consists of her taking out the Gudo Dama and then Team 7's combined strategy puts her away.

You say "Naruto and Sasuke battled Kaguya so they wreck Madara since Kaguya is a tier above Madara", even though they weren't fighting her and matching her. They were fighting to survive the vast majority of the match.


Then we have the fact that the same strategies used on Kaguya aren't going to be just as effective as they were on Madara due to their different fighting styles.
 

Kunihi

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He landed a hit on her, and it did nothing so there's nothing to debate on that topic. And if that fight had dragged on Naruto would end up with his clones destroyed while Kaguya has suffered no damage at all. Lol
...which means both would have suffered no damage at all... which means that while naruto didn't do anything to her, she didn't do anything to him, both just used up a lot of chakra.



Nope.

-Dodged Sasuke's teleportation.
-Then switched worlds again, which drains a lot of chakra.
She switche worlds multiple times, and the statement by black zetsu was made before sasuke even attacked her so nope. Nothing was implied that switching worlds a single time used up so much chakra that it significantly affected her battle abilities.

Meaning when she got blitzed she was even weaker. Which is why Naruto can react, but not dodge, Sasuke's teleportation while Kaguya can evade it. The feats of her busting Susanoo are valid, valid but they don't prove that they demolish Madara with ease.
She was insignificantly weaker.
Sasuke used a distraction and attacked naruto from behind which is why naruto got hit. He just straight up teleported to madara and kaguya.


If she couldn't maintain her ash bones and needed to restore chakra then the majority was most likely used up. Either way it doesn't matter as the whole point is that she was weakened. And no, the same doesn't apply to Naruto considering Naruto literally showed no decline in performance from start to finish and claiming that he did is going to require some actual evidence.
Why couldn't she maintain the ash bone? She just released it, just like she released it after the first time she used it on naruto. IF she actually was on low reserves, she'd show physical signs of chakra exhaustion like everyone else does when they are low. Kaguya showed no decline in her performance, the only evidence you've brought to the table is that it was stated that she was low on chakra, Naruto has never tried to shunshin blitz her before, and her performance against Sasuke is consistent with her earliest performances against him.


Yes, it's wank when you using Kaguya as some kind of benchmark makes no sense when they can't do anything serious to her without Kakashi's help. Naruto and Sasuke on their own were already failing hard against regular Kaguya yet somehow that display means that they wreck Madara? :lol
What are you talking about? If the fight had continued, and kaguya didn't absorb all of that chakra which took her to another level, what would have happened? She would have gotten sealed considering what naruto was doing to her. Making the claim that they didn't do anything serious to her makes no sense since she didn't do anything serious to them either. So if they can stalemate and then gain the upperhand against someone who's way stronger than madara then they'd obviously beat madara.

-The first part of the fight Sasuke's best attack was getting one shotted and their first seal attempt was thwarted.
Okay, and what did kaguya do against them? Nothing. So it's a stalemate, neither made any ground against each other.

-The second part was Naruto solo vs. Kaguya, and he was only surviving by spamming clones as a distraction. He couldn't actually do anything to her. All he did was hit her once with Kairiki Muso. Then he forced her to escape his Ittai Rendan, which still doesn't count as actually doing anything to her.
And she didn't do anything against him, so stalemate again, except if you consider chakra expenditure, Kaguya loses since she spends way more of her chakra in comparison to how much naruto spends in order to gain no headway against him.

-The penultimate part consisted of Sasuke playing decoy and getting raped, Naruto blitzing Kaguya and destabilizing the Bijuu Chakra only for them to be left (seemingly) helpless against the giant Juubi chakra monster until Kakashi comes and saves the day.
Yeah, that only happened because kaguya absorbed all of that chakra taking her to a totally different level than she was before. If she hadn't absorbed all that chakra, she gets blitzed and sealed.

-Then the final act consists of her taking out the Gudo Dama and then Team 7's combined strategy puts her away.
mmmhmmm

You say "Naruto and Sasuke battled Kaguya so they wreck Madara since Kaguya is a tier above Madara", even though they weren't fighting her and matching her. They were fighting to survive the vast majority of the match.
How were they fighting to survive when she did nothing to them, and when she expends (by your logic) way more of her own chakra in proportion to them? Then there's just the assumption on your part that her chakra decreased so much that her battle abilities significantly decreased which is not stated or implied in the manga, the only thing that's stated is that the second time she absorbs chakra, she becomes much stronger than she was before.

Then we have the fact that the same strategies used on Kaguya aren't going to be just as effective as they were on Madara due to their different fighting styles.
Why does that even matter? They don't even require those strategies against madara since Kaguya at all times is on a completely different level than madara.
 

KidGamer65

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...which means both would have suffered no damage at all... which means that while naruto didn't do anything to her, she didn't do anything to him, both just used up a lot of chakra.

Lol she didn't use up a lot of chakra fighting Naruto. She only switched worlds before that and the rest were portals, world attacks, vacuum fists and ash bones. If that fight had continued Naruto would be dead. The only reason he survived is because he spread out via clones.



She switche worlds multiple times, and the statement by black zetsu was made before sasuke even attacked her so nope. Nothing was implied that switching worlds a single time used up so much chakra that it significantly affected her battle abilities.

When she's already low on chakra, yes, using a lot of chakra does matter.
She was insignificantly weaker.

I'll take her not being able to maintain one of her own jutsu over your opinions any day bud.



Why couldn't she maintain the ash bone? She just released it, just like she released it after the first time she used it on naruto. IF she actually was on low reserves, she'd show physical signs of chakra exhaustion like everyone else does when they are low. Kaguya showed no decline in her performance, the only evidence you've brought to the table is that it was stated that she was low on chakra, Naruto has never tried to shunshin blitz her before, and her performance against Sasuke is consistent with her earliest performances against him.

:lol Please don't grasp at straws.

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-Can't maintain her ash bones.
-The exclamation mark is proof she didn't "release it".
-Immediately after that BZ asks if he should make more chakra, then says that they should go to the genesis dimension in order to recover quickly.

Meaning her chakra and her performance dropped. Her not showing signs of low chakra is irrelevant when Manga practically tells you that her chakras are low.

It's hilarious that you actually think a regular Kaguya can be blitzed by Naruto when databook puts Madara on par with Naruto in reaction speed. Kaguya>>Madara in speed.

What are you talking about? If the fight had continued, and kaguya didn't absorb all of that chakra which took her to another level, what would have happened? She would have gotten sealed considering what naruto was doing to her. Making the claim that they didn't do anything serious to her makes no sense since she didn't do anything serious to them either. So if they can stalemate and then gain the upperhand against someone who's way stronger than madara then they'd obviously beat madara.

If that fight had continued Naruto and Sasuke would be dead. Period.

-Sasuke had been dragged off to another dimension.
-Naruto was only surviving by using diversion tactics.

Once his clones are all destroyed, he dies. Kaguya can refill her chakra to the regular amount whenever she pleases. So tell me more about how she would've been sealed. :lol Especially without Sasuke there. Even if he was there what exactly would happen? Nothing. She'd still be overpowering them.

Okay, and what did kaguya do against them? Nothing. So it's a stalemate, neither made any ground against each other.

Besides obliterating Sasuke's strongest technique? :lol

And she didn't do anything against him, so stalemate again, except if you consider chakra expenditure, Kaguya loses since she spends way more of her chakra in comparison to how much naruto spends in order to gain no headway against him.

:lol Are you kidding me? At that point Kaguya was simply using ash bones and vacuum fists to destroy Naruto's clones. The only reason she used up the majority of her chakra is because she used Amenominaka multiple times, which drains a lot of chakra even for Kaguya. If she doesn't use Amenominaka against her then Naruto isn't going to outlast her by spamming clones.

So no, unless you can actually show me how using those techniques results in her running out of chakra when Naruto's distraction army is finished, he dies. Call me when you can actually show Naruto being able to match her in power and not with diversion tactics, then we can talk about him and Sasuke fodderizing Madara.

Yeah, that only happened because kaguya absorbed all of that chakra taking her to a totally different level than she was before. If she hadn't absorbed all that chakra, she gets blitzed and sealed.

Or if she simply takes in the same amount of chakra she had before she continues to slap them around until they die. The only reason she got sealed is because of Kakashi. Kaguya at her normal state is enough for Naruto and Sasuke.

How were they fighting to survive when she did nothing to them, and when she expends (by your logic) way more of her own chakra in proportion to them? Then there's just the assumption on your part that her chakra decreased so much that her battle abilities significantly decreased which is not stated or implied in the manga, the only thing that's stated is that the second time she absorbs chakra, she becomes much stronger than she was before.

This question makes absolutely no sense. If they are fighting to survive and are still alive, then obviously she isn't doing anything that'd actually resort in a fatality to them. Whether or not she was hitting and killing them is irrelevant to my point so I'm not sure why you keep repeating this statement as if it matters. The rest has been addressed.


Why does that even matter? They don't even require those strategies against madara since Kaguya at all times is on a completely different level than madara.

Stop with this nonsense logic. Naruto survived against Kaguya because of clone spam and her lack of a widespread ability strong enough to wipe out Naruto's clones in one hit. That is something that Madara has. So saying "Because Naruto survived against Kaguya using clone spam he can easily defeat Madara w/ Sasuke" makes absolutely no sense. Especially since his clones were a distraction and that's literally the only reason he survived against her.

If you want to argue that Naruto and Sasuke rape Madara, do us all a favor and use feats that actually transfer over to a NS vs. Madara fight. Because if they fight the same way they did against Kaguya, against Madara, Madara would win. Naruto can't even fight Sasuke the same way he fought Kaguya.
 

Scryed

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Naruto, Sasuke would win.


People need to realize that Kaguya and Madara are two different individuals. He's weaker than her but the fighting styles are still different especially since PS would make it more difficult for them to tag him. Not to mention the change in her power throughout her fight against them due to the amount of chakra she had at her disposal (at some points she had low chakra which means her strength, speed, etc. dropped since when it comes to her power, more chakra=more power,strength,etc.)

Fighting Madara wouldn't be a stomp but I'll go ahead and say Mid difficulty.
 
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