[Spoilers] i love being right!!

[ssjelf]

Yes to catch them off guard, but in the real fight 1 vs 1, not while your opponent fight two other shinigamis and think you are dead.

Why would he try to do same thing as Kyoraku? Their fighting style is different.. To what you refer when say that? Renji attacking him from behind?

Mask is way more powerful than Starrk. Starrk is not a lot above mid captain level fighters. Kensei and Rose the two captains who are around that level got one shotted by 10% of Mask's Schrift powers. Mask after that had to power up himself and use Vollstanig.



You don't neccessary need to be as strong as Yamamoto to take his place, you need to be near as powerful as him, or to feel the criteria for the position. Hitsugaya successed Isshin, but Hitsugaya is not strong as Isshin. End he had to feel the criteria for that...

On the other hand, CC is leader of the whole organization, he need to be present.



1. It was never implied that Kyoraku is next after Kyoraku. On top of my head I can think of some strongest characters.



2. Because such was never implied. Unohana was implied to be strongest shinigami. Ukitake was said to be equal to Shunsui. I would even argue that Shinji is around there.

3. Yamamoto was never implied to be strongest because he is CC, but because he holds that position for 1000 years.



4. Unlike in Kyoraku's/HItsugaya's case there is no proof that Aizen used KS.

Even if that's true, there is still argument that Shinji was able to scratch Aizen alone, Kyoraku (needed help from Hitsugaya) and Hitsugaya (needed help from Shinji).



My favorites are Urahara, Gin, Shinji and Hitsugaya. Three my favorites character were trolled, still I read manga. I still to see such a person. And as I said if Kubo care about that, he wouldn't made such a shitty sternritters.

5. To which Sternritter you refer? Shinji was defeated by Bambietta. But Shikai Shinji >>>>>> Schrift Bambietta. When Bambietta used Vollstandig (equal to bankai) she beat Shikai Shinji. Shikai Shinji never used Bankai against Bambietta, and used much less power than Bambietta in the fight.


6. Yamamoto who has his bankai for 1000+ years was pretty injured by it. Yamaoto beath Royd with little diff. So I don't see your point here.



7. Than, can I answer your question with another question: "How Kyoraku's beat allow him to maybe beat Aizen".[/B]

Shikai Kyoraku was fodderised by Shikai Aizen.

1. Or maybe your assumptions of strength are wrong. Ichigo or the royal guards or maybe Unohana, but they aren't in a position to be CC now are they. Unohana is dead and yama knew Zaraki would kill her so thats why he oredered her not to leave her barracks. Zaraki could be stronger too but that might be the only exception and we have argued this before and I don't want to now, but I still think Kyorakus bankai will trump Shikai/no eyepatch zaraki.

2. Ukitake is sick most of the time but when he isn't he is equal to Kyoraku. Actually MP t had Ukitake's name on the letter Yama left but for whatever reason Ukitake hasn't been shown to be in that position. Shinji might be close but he wasn't promoted to CC.

3. Manga scans disprove you.

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Yama held the spot because no one surpassed him. The next to take his position would also be the strongest. Your logic is flawed. Yama is CC because no one surpassed him therefore a successor should be one that no has surpassed. If a shinigami had surpassed Yama, then Yama would no longer have been able to hold that position and it would go to the stronger. Same applies for the next CC. It is just logic that says the most capable shinigami is the leader. The next most are captains, then lieutenants and so on down the ranks. Soul Society has a strength based hierarchy.

4. Aizen may as well have said he was using it the entire time. The length of time that passed between their fight and Aizens reveal as Momo was only a few minutes.

5. Shinji was beat by Bazz-B or at least bazz-B was able to get past him and Shinji still hasn't made an appearance since for some reason.

6. Yamamoto was injured by what? His bankai? No Yama was exhausted by it. And also Yama is very old so he was strained by his bankai. Renji was also strained by his so i am saying that Renjis power probably can't last in an extended battle. Remember in SS arc when Ichigo got weaker the longer he had his bankai out when he was fighting Byakuya. Hollow Ichigo said that Ichigos Reiatsu was crushed by the power of his bankai. The point being is that Renjis strength may be used up very quickly.

7. You are the one that said Kubo said Kyoraku might beat Aizen. So how he does it is out of the question so long as he can. With Renji he doesn't have Kubos word behind him so we have to ask how.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

1. Or maybe your assumptions of strength are wrong. Ichigo or the royal guards or maybe Unohana, but they aren't in a position to be CC now are they. Unohana is dead and yama knew Zaraki would kill her so thats why he oredered her not to leave her barracks. Zaraki could be stronger too but that might be the only exception and we have argued this before and I don't want to now, but I still think Kyorakus bankai will trump Shikai/no eyepatch zaraki.

2. Ukitake is sick most of the time but when he isn't he is equal to Kyoraku. Actually MP t had Ukitake's name on the letter Yama left but for whatever reason Ukitake hasn't been shown to be in that position. Shinji might be close but he wasn't promoted to CC.

3. Manga scans disprove you.

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Yama held the spot because no one surpassed him. The next to take his position would also be the strongest. Your logic is flawed. Yama is CC because no one surpassed him therefore a successor should be one that no has surpassed. If a shinigami had surpassed Yama, then Yama would no longer have been able to hold that position and it would go to the stronger. Same applies for the next CC. It is just logic that says the most capable shinigami is the leader. The next most are captains, then lieutenants and so on down the ranks. Soul Society has a strength based hierarchy.

4. Aizen may as well have said he was using it the entire time. The length of time that passed between their fight and Aizens reveal as Momo was only a few minutes.

5. Shinji was beat by Bazz-B or at least bazz-B was able to get past him and Shinji still hasn't made an appearance since for some reason.

6. Yamamoto was injured by what? His bankai? No Yama was exhausted by it. And also Yama is very old so he was strained by his bankai. Renji was also strained by his so i am saying that Renjis power probably can't last in an extended battle. Remember in SS arc when Ichigo got weaker the longer he had his bankai out when he was fighting Byakuya. Hollow Ichigo said that Ichigos Reiatsu was crushed by the power of his bankai. The point being is that Renjis strength may be used up very quickly.

7. You are the one that said Kubo said Kyoraku might beat Aizen. So how he does it is out of the question so long as he can. With Renji he doesn't have Kubos word behind him so we have to ask how.

Your wrong about the CC part kyoraku was chosen cuz he's like a son to Yama yea he is strong but thats not the only reason he has that spot...an I believe c46 left him that letter not Yama.

 

[ssjelf]

Your wrong about the CC part kyoraku was chosen cuz he's like a son to Yama yea he is strong but thats not the only reason he has that spot...an I believe c46 left him that letter not Yama.

If that is the case and C46 has the power to put in a CC, then my point stands stronger in that he wasn't elected because he was Yamas favorite. The reason Yama held the position was because he was the strongest and therefore the next elected by C46 would also be the strongest.

 

[Phoenix110]

If that is the case and C46 has the power to put in a CC, then my point stands stronger in that he wasn't elected because he was Yamas favorite. The reason Yama held the position was because he was the strongest and therefore the next elected by C46 would also be the strongest.

After much consideration and reading ur arguments back and forth I gotta agree with this guy

 

[kotoamatsukami]

If that is the case and C46 has the power to put in a CC, then my point stands stronger in that he wasn't elected because he was Yamas favorite. The reason Yama held the position was because he was the strongest and therefore the next elected by C46 would also be the strongest.

I mean one of the main reasons they selected him was because he was like a son to Yama,yama even trained him,so they know they can trust him with that spot...but as it stands right now I don't believe he's the strongest captain I could be wrong though.

Yes Yama did not become CC cuz he was strong he kept the spot cuz he was strong.

 

[ssjelf]

I mean one of the main reasons they selected him was because he was like a son to Yama,yama even trained him,so they know they can trust him with that spot...but as it stands right now I don't believe he's the strongest captain I could be wrong though.

Yes Yama did not become CC cuz he was strong he kept the spot cuz he was strong.

He became CC because he was the leader and founder of the Gotei 13 back when it was a bunch of thugs. He was the strongest of all the ruthless thugs he had acquired. Murderous killers don't follow one weaker than themselves.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

He became CC because he was the leader and founder of the Gotei 13 back when it was a bunch of thugs. He was the strongest of all the ruthless thugs he had acquired. Murderous killers don't follow one weaker than themselves.

He's CC cuz he started everything an that was back then things have changed now I doubt it's all about power now but that is important.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. Or maybe your assumptions of strength are wrong. Ichigo or the royal guards or maybe Unohana, but they aren't in a position to be CC now are they. Unohana is dead and yama knew Zaraki would kill her so thats why he oredered her not to leave her barracks. Zaraki could be stronger too but that might be the only exception and we have argued this before and I don't want to now, but I still think Kyorakus bankai will trump Shikai/no eyepatch zaraki.

To which my point you refer?

Yamamoto wasn't one who choose Kyoraku to be next CC.

2. Ukitake is sick most of the time but when he isn't he is equal to Kyoraku. Actually MP t had Ukitake's name on the letter Yama left but for whatever reason Ukitake hasn't been shown to be in that position. Shinji might be close but he wasn't promoted to CC.

That's my point. There is Unohana (more intelligent and more powerful than Kyoraku) but wasn't promoted because she was criminal, Ukitake (same power, but smarter, who is sick and can't even do his job as Captain, so CC will be too much), and Shinji (I wound't say that he is smarter, but I would say that he is stronger), but he is Hollow-Shinigami hybrid.

3. Manga scans disprove you.

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Yama held the spot because no one surpassed him. The next to take his position would also be the strongest. Your logic is flawed. Yama is CC because no one surpassed him therefore a successor should be one that no has surpassed. If a shinigami had surpassed Yama, then Yama would no longer have been able to hold that position and it would go to the stronger. Same applies for the next CC. It is just logic that says the most capable shinigami is the leader. The next most are captains, then lieutenants and so on down the ranks. Soul Society has a strength based hierarchy.

That don't necessary say what you say. Yamamoto was so long cc because no one surpassed him, but when he lost his arm, he would himself probably retreat from position (I don't see why Ukitake would even brought that if it's not like that), but he couldn't find fine successor. If Aizen for example was in SS at that time, than I see him being strong enough to take that position.

Also, title CC, rivals title Grandmaster of Sternritters. CC is leader to many captain level fighters and Grandmaster is same as that. So just for the comparasion, CC's level would be anyone around Hashwalth's level of power. Is Kyoraku on that level, I doubt that considerin' Ukitake's statament.

4. Aizen may as well have said he was using it the entire time. The length of time that passed between their fight and Aizens reveal as Momo was only a few minutes.

There is still a thing, that Shinji do that alone.

5. Shinji was beat by Bazz-B or at least bazz-B was able to get past him and Shinji still hasn't made an appearance since for some reason.

We still has to see what happened with Shinji. For know it's only that Bazz-B past him, but Shinji was still in bad condition.

6. Yamamoto was injured by what? His bankai? No Yama was exhausted by it. And also Yama is very old so he was strained by his bankai. Renji was also strained by his so i am saying that Renjis power probably can't last in an extended battle. Remember in SS arc when Ichigo got weaker the longer he had his bankai out when he was fighting Byakuya. Hollow Ichigo said that Ichigos Reiatsu was crushed by the power of his bankai. The point being is that Renjis strength may be used up very quickly.

What's the difference between this and what I'm saying?

Yamamoto being exhaused by his bankai, and Renji's strenght being used quickly?

7. You are the one that said Kubo said Kyoraku might beat Aizen. So how he does it is out of the question so long as he can. With Renji he doesn't have Kubos word behind him so we have to ask how.

So you want to say that because Kubo said that Kyoraku may have chance against Aizen, no one other than Kyoraku actually don't has chance against Aizen?

By that, Yhwach, Jugram, Urahara, Isshin don't even has chance against Aizen.

 

[ssjelf]

To which my point you refer?

Yamamoto wasn't one who choose Kyoraku to be next CC.

Kotoamatsukami pointed that out, but if C46 put him there, then it was because they saw his power. yama said that no one surpassed him and that is why he kept his spot. If someone had surpassed him, then it is apprently up to them to choose the next one. But no one has surpassed him. I get that, but the logic of it being the strongest that they can choose from still applies.

That's my point. There is Unohana (more intelligent and more powerful than Kyoraku) but wasn't promoted because she was criminal, Ukitake (same power, but smarter, who is sick and can't even do his job as Captain, so CC will be too much), and Shinji (I wound't say that he is smarter, but I would say that he is stronger), but he is Hollow-Shinigami hybrid.

I understand that there are some more powerful than him, but just because they are stronger does not mean that it isn't a strength based hierarchy. So I was just saying that although Unohana may be stronger, she can't be CC because she had to die to Zaraki instead. Then again C46 would not have known that because they didn't want Zaraki to be trained in the first place. But to me it just means that it was Yama who chose his successor and not C46.

That don't necessary say what you say. Yamamoto was so long cc because no one surpassed him, but when he lost his arm, he would himself probably retreat from position (I don't see why Ukitake would even brought that if it's not like that), but he couldn't find fine successor. If Aizen for example was in SS at that time, than I see him being strong enough to take that position.

I also understand that Kyoraku is not as powerful as Yama. He is just the next most qualified candidate. If Aizen was strong enough to make Yama step down then Kyoraku should be too as per your quote from Kubo regarding a fight between Aizen and Kyoraku.

Also, title CC, rivals title Grandmaster of Sternritters. CC is leader to many captain level fighters and Grandmaster is same as that. So just for the comparasion, CC's level would be anyone around Hashwalth's level of power. Is Kyoraku on that level, I doubt that considerin' Ukitake's statament.

I don't think Kyoraku can beat YH, he isn't a CC as strong as that, but to me Kyoraku is on par with Hashwalth. They were gonna go at it and whoever won was going to do so with very high diff. Or thats the way I see it.

There is still a thing, that Shinji do that alone.

I know, but I doubt he can replicate it, Aizen got used to it very quick. Kyorakus skill is what got him that stab I think. Yes Aizen was frozen, but notice how the way he got stabbed was because he left a shadow on the ice. A shadow is not something everyone can take advantage of.

We still has to see what happened with Shinji. For know it's only that Bazz-B past him, but Shinji was still in bad condition.

I hope he is still around. I wanna see his bankai.

What's the difference between this and what I'm saying?

Yamamoto being exhausted by his bankai, and Renji's strenght being used quickly?

Well to me it is a negative. Not a simple comparison. You could have the weakest shinigami in the world do the same thing, get tired quick just like Yama, but it doesn't mean that it is not a bad thing. In a fight against Kyoraku, i am sure he would notice this quickly. He was very perceptive about eery one of Starks abilities.

So you want to say that because Kubo said that Kyoraku may have chance against Aizen, no one other than Kyoraku actually don't has chance against Aizen?

By that, Yhwach, Jugram, Urahara, Isshin don't even has chance against Aizen.

Don't twist my words. I only asked how can Renji deal with KS. I don't see him being able to. That is all.

 

[Summer]

Well out of active captains shunsui is likely the strongest but that is only because of ukitakes illness as they both became captains at the same time so really either of those two could have become cc. It's only because ukitake is sick that shunsui was chosen imo both are great candidates after them likely yoruichi but who knows maybe yoruichi is strongest?

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Kotoamatsukami pointed that out, but if C46 put him there, then it was because they saw his power. yama said that no one surpassed him and that is why he kept his spot. If someone had surpassed him, then it is apprently up to them to choose the next one. But no one has surpassed him. I get that, but the logic of it being the strongest that they can choose from still applies.

It still don't prove that he was on CC level, it just mean that he was best choise at the moment, because there was no other good enough to replace Yama.

I understand that there are some more powerful than him, but just because they are stronger does not mean that it isn't a strength based hierarchy. So I was just saying that although Unohana may be stronger, she can't be CC because she had to die to Zaraki instead. Then again C46 would not have known that because they didn't want Zaraki to be trained in the first place. But to me it just means that it was Yama who chose his successor and not C46.

I don't see how could Yama chose successor when he died, and he didn't really planned to die in the war... As I said above, it don't put him on that level, it's just that there wasn't better option than him at the moment and large organization need good leader (while he is not that strong, he showed great leadership) in the war.

I also understand that Kyoraku is not as powerful as Yama. He is just the next most qualified candidate. If Aizen was strong enough to make Yama step down then Kyoraku should be too as per your quote from Kubo regarding a fight between Aizen and Kyoraku.

Again, that's just the opinion to chose your answer alone, but again it don't implie that Kyoraku will necessary be above Aizen, just that he will be able to put good fight. Just like how I think Hashwalth or some RG would put good fight agaisnt Yamamato.

I don't think Kyoraku can beat YH, he isn't a CC as strong as that, but to me Kyoraku is on par with Hashwalth. They were gonna go at it and whoever won was going to do so with very high diff. Or thats the way I see it.

Ok, I can't go agaisnt your personal opinion, but the way Hashwalth was portrayed, cut TZ without Shcrift or Vollstandig (that would be equal with Kyoraku, if could do that without KK), similar to Yhwach and was said that can be next emperor (even rival Uryuu's potential, and Uryuu as long as we know than surpass Yhwach).

I know, but I doubt he can replicate it, Aizen got used to it very quick. Kyorakus skill is what got him that stab I think. Yes Aizen was frozen, but notice how the way he got stabbed was because he left a shadow on the ice. A shadow is not something everyone can take advantage of.

That's really just KK's ability. It would be pretty same with in their fight, Aizen will just stand in the air without making shadows, just like Starrk did.

Well to me it is a negative. Not a simple comparison. You could have the weakest shinigami in the world do the same thing, get tired quick just like Yama, but it doesn't mean that it is not a bad thing. In a fight against Kyoraku, i am sure he would notice this quickly. He was very perceptive about eery one of Starks abilities.

Can you further this please, I don't really get it.

Don't twist my words. I only asked how can Renji deal with KS. I don't see him being able to. That is all.

In the same manner, how would Kyoraku deal with KS?