[Spoilers] i love being right!!
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swirlyshark
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Grimmjow return would be pitiful this far in the story seeing as everyone outclasses grimmjow in the soul palace
I don't know about all that in bold. We haven't seen them bankai yet. You can't just make that comparison until you see their bankai.
And yeah grimmjoww probably has some new powerup but he has no one to fight.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
What he could do? Defeat Aizen? Defeat Yhwach?
Bankai increase power by 5-10 times. You can make assumption about how powerful they will be in their bankai, if you know how powerful they are in shikai.
When we compare Shikai Kyoraku and Shikai Renji, Shikai Renji is better.
Shikai Renji >> 100% Schrift Mask >> 10% Schrift Mask >> Kensei/Rose
I don't think that Shikai Kyoraku is even powerful as Bankai Kensei. That's always the thing that Kyoraku didn't show his full abilities in shikai, but still gab is so great.
Tho, Kyoraku could fill the gap with Bankai, because he has it way longer than Renji and by that his increase in power should be greater, but still it shouldn't put him a lot more above Renji, tho I'm doubting that he will be more powerful than him.
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You expect renji to be more powerful than kyoraku? I'm sorry but I can't take that seriously. Renji needs bankai to be beat mask. So shikai renji was not better than 100% mask. Kyoraku had one eye shot out by a vollstandigg sternritter while he was surprised by Yamas loss. He was distracted. And we don't know OMQ's strength as he was off paneled by byakuya and we don't know if byakuya used bankai. Kyoraku is captain commander a mere lieutenant is not stronger than him. You like to shit on kyoraku for some reason but the only thing you can say is that kyoraku has his eye shot out while distracted. Kyoraku has all the hype behind him and his bankai has been saved since the beginning. The last bankai we knew existed from the beginning but wasn't revealed was Yamas and we know how op that was. You also highly underestimate kyoraku a shikai. He beat stark for crying out loud. And yes they were on even terms. Stark even admitted kyoraku a wounds were worse than his own and yet kyoraku won. And who does kyoraku have left to fight besides one of the most powerful sternritters. Kubo won't let that hype down by having him lose easily. If he doesn't win, he will put up one heck of a fight before losing. And if it isn't better than renji, kubo is gonna have a lot o readers drop the manga for trolling us with character hype. Kubo isn't in a position to do that and he wouldn't want to as he has had kyoraku be this background badass for so long. If you legitimately believe renji is even close then I don't know what o say other than that you are crazy.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
No he will have a different role doing something else remember urahra said he made a deal with grimmjow but what was that deal?...grimmjow will fight someone it does not have to be Bach or aizen.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Physicaly wise renji is stronger than kyoraku I believe he blocked mask 10x punch as if it was child's play an this was after mask got stronger after fighting the two captains,renji an rukia got alot stronger cuz they are main characters somewhat..kyoraku is not Yama level he's CC cuz Yama died but his bankai should be something very haxx but him in shikai has no chane at beating renji.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
??? I said Schrift Mask, which mean without Vollstandig.
Yes, but Robert but still great fight agaisnt him. And we don't know how much power he used as well. Byakuya beating Robert in my eyes just prove that he is a lot stronger than Kyoraku, than other way around.
Also, Robert was impied to be not that strong among Sternritters. Not counting Emperor, Successor, Grandmaster and Elites who are for sure more powerful than him, it was implied that both Lilttoto and Menias are better than him and Bambietta was their leader which also implied that she is better. Gremmy is probably on Elite level and not counting him, Bazz-B showed greatest strengh among others Sternritters.
It was already stated that no shinigami in gotei is capable of being CC. And I hope you realise that Renji is not mere lieutenant. Because mere lieutenant were easily defeated by Mask (Hisagi).
??? It's not only the point that his eye was shotted, but that Robert put great fight agaisnt "future CC" without gettind defeated/killed.
Same Robert that was later implied to not be that strong among ordinary Sternritters.
I'm not saying that he don't has hype. And it's not that only his bankai existed from the beginning there are a lot of bankais.
Shinji contriputed in the fight against Aizen more than any other shinigami. He is the only one who was able to cut him. Shinji's is very important to the story because:
1. He was mentor to the main character
2. He was captain to the main antagonist of the first half of the series
3. He is leader of strong organization
Shinji was introduced in Arrancar arc, but he is present at the cover of the first chapter. That's just show how important Shinji's character is, I call that hype, still look at how he is handled.
He beat Starrk in shikai, while having help from Ukitake, Love and Rose. Havin' time to analyze his abilities, in reallity Starrk overpowered him at the beginning when latter admited that he would use bankai, if Ukitake hadn't poped in.
Kyoraku also when joining fight second time, attacked Starrk from behind, which is kind of unfair.
Starrk was stronger than (Shikai) Kyoraku.
Who say that he will fight? Who say that he will beat his opponent?
Ichigo, Chad, Orihime, Uryuu (at one time he will leave Quincy side), Yoruichi, Ganju are already on their way to the RR.
Royal Guard already fight with Quincies.
Urahara, Isshin and Ryuuken are more important to the strory than Kyoraku, if anything they should get fight before him. Aizen is also there.
And there are still characters like Hiyori, Lisa, Mashiro, Hachigen, Love, Tessai, Yuushiro, Kukaku, Shinji, Byakuya who yet has to got real fight.
I alredy said what happened with Shinji's hype.
Why would anyone drop manga, because Kyoraku ended weaker than Renji. You think Kubo really care about 'drop' at this point, if he cared about that, he would give Sternritters characters development and would try to give them some development and make them enjoyable.
This is not an argument, but it's ad hominem.
I don't say that there is no chance for Kyoraku to be stronger than Renji in the end, but that wouldn't make sense, when Shikai Renji has way better feats than Shikai Kyoraku.
Oh, that's good point.
But I still don't see who he could fight, since there is noone other except for Yhwach and Aizen.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Grimmjow might just fight anybody...but mostlikely will fight aizen or kubo might just introduce more enemy's.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
That would be bad move for him to fight Aizen at least from my point of view. He just shouldn't had that kind of power.
More enemies? Just no..
More enemies? Just no..
I'm calling you crazy because your logic is truly flawed. Part of strength is to be able to beat an opponent no matter how you do it. Could current Renji have taken advantage of the situation in the Starkk battle like Kyoraku did, I do not think so. It depends on how you define stronger, but the ability to take a situation and turn it to your advantage is part of it and Kyoraku is a master at creating and taking opportunities. It is hardly fair of you to throw out one of his strongest skills because it is "unfair".
It was never said that no one was fit to be CC. It was said that no one had taken over the position because no one was stronger than Yamamoto. Now that Yamamoto is gone, Yama has appointed the next best thing which was Kyoraku. Yamas logic was that strength dictates the position. seeing as how he put Kyoraku into the position, Yama may as well have said that the next strongest captain was Kyoraku. Let me use your favorite word here, Yama "implied" that Kyoraku was strongest after himself.
Shinji isn't the only one who can cut Aizen either
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In fact Hitsugaya did it too
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People will drop the manga if the one of the most hyped characters in the series doesn't get a time to shine. Just like people are dropping the manga because Shinji has been given nothing either. Secondly the last 3 chapters have had Kyoraku appear twice in very mysterious circumstances, Kubo is playing up his hype as we speak. Also you were the one saying before that kyorakus bankai was already stated to be shown. You were also saying that he could beat shinigami Aizen if he used bankai. A feat that Bankai renji can't do. So whats up with that. Forgive me if I am mistaken but I do quite clearly remember you saying that although i can't remember what thread it was on.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
I see current Renji one shotting Starrk. I don't see how Kyoraku attacking Starrk from the back while latter fought two other opponents and while thinking that Kyoraku is immobile is one of his strongest skills. If one of strongest skills is to catch opponents while they are fighting two other members than that just further my point here.
Wrong [
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]"Since there is still no shinigami in SS that can take his place".
Where did Yamamoto said that Kyoraku is stronest after him?
Shinji actually cut Aizen. In both pages you are posting, they actually cuts Momo and not Aizen.
I'm for around a year member of one of the largest Bleachs forum on the internet, if not largest, and I yet have to meet person that droped the manga because of that.
"Also you were the one saying before that kyorakus bankai was already stated to be shown." Than, how I shit on him?
Yes I was the one who was saying that. Kubo said in the interview that Kyoraky could maybe put a beat Aizen, but he will left to us to chose our opinions. It don't mean that Kyoraku will beat Aizen, but that Aizen is not that much stronger than Kyoraku and that Kyoraku can put pretty good fight against him. I see Renji doing the same, because I don't see how are you sure that Renji can't do the same. If Kyoraku is capable of defeating Aizen, that I would be really surprised if Renji isn't.
Kyorakus strongest skills is to catch opponents off guard. like I said, Renji in shikai wouldn't have been able to beat starkk if he tried to do the same thing as Kyoraku. Beating mask is renjis only feat. I can't see mask as being near Starkks level so if Renji beat Mask mid diff or even low Diff, then Starkk could beat Renji High diff at least. At the very least, Renji would have to do the same thing Kyoraku did if he were to stay in shikai like Kyoraku did.
No shinigami can take Yamas place. That is true because no one was as strong as Yama and therefore no one was promoted up. But because Yama died the next strongest has to take his place. If the strongest shinigami Yamamoto was CC then his successor should be the next strongest. It is only C comes after B after A logic. It was Yamamotos hierarchy of strength that had him at the top and he was able to choose Kyoraku to be his successor. If Yama didn't want anyone weaker than him to take his place while he was alive, why would he want a weaker candidate over a stronger candidate. When something breaks and you can't replace it with something equal or better, you replace it with the next best thing, not something worse than the next best thing. So kyoraku may not be Yamamoto, but he is the one that comes closest. I really don't understand why you can say things are implied but fail to see where it is implied that the CC is the strongest shinigami.
Shinji was under KS the whole time and so was all the rest of the captains. When it was revealed that Aizen was really Momo being disguised Shinji asked when he started using KS and Aizen relied "Let me answer that question with another question. When did you think I wasn't using KS" I could equally say that Shinji was fighting Momo as well.
If you look through the threads here you will always see threads about people who are dropping/dropped the manga because their favorite character was trolled. People have dropped since Hitsugaya was turned into a zombie (I remember a handful of threads of people saying they were gonna drop it and holding off because he might be alive. I also realize this is related to character death, but it also has to do with character ability and how his lack of strength got him "killed"), since Gin died and since shinji was shit on by Bazz-B. I personally wouldn't but some people do. I would also like to note that this Shinji who "cut" aizen was also shitted on by a sternritter who is clearly weaker than Aizen. So maybe cutting Aizen isn't too big of a deal here. But anyways, Shinji was beat by a character who was "impled" to be stronger than the veteran of YH's army, Robert Accutrone. And Kyoraku was beat by this "weaker" guy while distracted so nothing here really proves anything regarding relative strength of Shinji to Kyoraku. Also RObert Accutrone got up after being beat by Byakuya and he didn't seem terribly injured either. He also spoke like a vet which to me implies he was strong enough to stay in the army for a long time.
Renjis feat here is that he beat Mask who has unknown power levels in comparison with Aizen but is most definitely weaker. Renjis beat him low diff but with a caveat, he was told he had to rest between battles for some reason. Perhaps his power is beyond his ability to use for long periods of time because he hasn't trained enough or because the only reason he can wield it is because of all the spirit food from Kirio hikifune has increased his reiatsu storage but he needs to rest to replenish the large amounts he has used.
And on the other hand we have Kubo saying Kyoraku can put up a fight against Aizen and maybe beat him. I don't see how Renjis feats allows him to maybe beat Aizen. I think he could beat shinigami Aizen in base, but KS would come out and beat him.
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kotoamatsukami
Active member
Lol mask>>>>>>>starkk...stark actually had to try to beat love an rose while mask beat rose an kensei without trying at all really he won't useing close to his full power when he beat thoes to senseless..then renji shows up an trash him easily an forced him to go vollstanding.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Lol no he took her out himself just to do so..he easily could have had mask or gremmy take her out a lot of other Quincy can take her out aswell,like bazz-b him especially.
Reagular mask>>>>>>>>>>starkk...vollstanding mask>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>starkk.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
Yes to catch them off guard, but in the real fight 1 vs 1, not while your opponent fight two other shinigamis and think you are dead.
Why would he try to do same thing as Kyoraku? Their fighting style is different.. To what you refer when say that? Renji attacking him from behind?
Mask is way more powerful than Starrk. Starrk is not a lot above mid captain level fighters. Kensei and Rose the two captains who are around that level got one shotted by 10% of Mask's Schrift powers. Mask after that had to power up himself and use Vollstanig.
You don't neccessary need to be as strong as Yamamoto to take his place, you need to be near as powerful as him, or to feel the criteria for the position. Hitsugaya successed Isshin, but Hitsugaya is not strong as Isshin. End he had to feel the criteria for that...
On the other hand, CC is leader of the whole organization, he need to be present.
It was never implied that Kyoraku is next after Kyoraku. On top of my head I can think of some strongest characters.
Because such was never implied. Unohana was implied to be strongest shinigami. Ukitake was said to be equal to Shunsui. I would even argue that Shinji is around there.
Yamamoto was never implied to be strongest because he is CC, but because he holds that position for 1000 years.
Unlike in Kyoraku's/HItsugaya's case there is no proof that Aizen used KS.
Even if that's true, there is still argument that Shinji was able to scratch Aizen alone, Kyoraku (needed help from Hitsugaya) and Hitsugaya (needed help from Shinji).
My favorites are Urahara, Gin, Shinji and Hitsugaya. Three my favorites character were trolled, still I read manga. I still to see such a person. And as I said if Kubo care about that, he wouldn't made such a shitty sternritters.
To which Sternritter you refer? Shinji was defeated by Bambietta. But Shikai Shinji >>>>>> Schrift Bambietta. When Bambietta used Vollstandig (equal to bankai) she beat Shikai Shinji. Shikai Shinji never used Bankai against Bambietta, and used much less power than Bambietta in the fight.
Yamamoto who has his bankai for 1000+ years was pretty injured by it. Yamaoto beath Royd with little diff. So I don't see your point here.
Than, can I answer your question with another question: "How Kyoraku's beat allow him to maybe beat Aizen".
Shikai Kyoraku was fodderised by Shikai Aizen.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
We don't know can Grimmjow achive segunda etapa. From all we know it could be unique only to Ulquiorra.