[Discussion] How strong was Kozuki Oden?

[OG sama]

Let’s be real here the man was a beast, clashing with a Prime WB and Roger, and then nearly one shotting Kaido 20 years ago.

He has feats and Hype better than just about every character in the series. Even though he most definitely isn’t the strongest character in the series.

How strong was this legend in his Prime? Admiral level? Yonko level?

personally imma say he was a low Top tier, a character above FM level and not quite Yonko level, think Old Rayleigh or Ben Beckman level maybe? Kaido wasn’t probably in his prime either so it could work.

Also I would like to think Luffy or Zoro will surpass him this arc, I doubt either one of them will be legit Admiral level at the end of this arc, but most definitely after this one. So him being quite Kizaru level or Aokiji level I just don’t see.

what do you guys think?

 

[chopstickchakra]

Let’s be real here the man was a beast, clashing with a Prime WB and Roger, and then nearly one shotting Kaido 20 years ago.

He has feats and Hype better than just about every character in the series. Even though he most definitely isn’t the strongest character in the series.

How strong was this legend in his Prime? Admiral level? Yonko level?

personally imma say he was a low Top tier, a character above FM level and not quite Yonko level, think Old Rayleigh or Ben Beckman level maybe? Kaido wasn’t probably in his prime either so it could work.

Also I would like to think Luffy or Zoro will surpass him this arc, I doubt either one of them will be legit Admiral level at the end of this arc, but most definitely after this one. So him being quite Kizaru level or Aokiji level I just don’t see.

what do you guys think?

He was in his prime when we saw him.

You said he nearly one-shotted Kaido but he's not quite yonko level, this is a confusing statement.

 

[Passerby]

Oden couldn't even handle a basic club swing. You can try and justify the circumstances all you want but the truth is that a single basic club swing was enough to put down Oden.

Imagine if Oden faced current Kaido? If he couldn't tank a normal club swing then he'll die if he gets hit with Kaido's Thunder Bagua.

 

[OG sama]

He was in his prime when we saw him.

You said he nearly one-shotted Kaido but he's not quite yonko level, this is a confusing statement.

Im saying not quite cause we have no idea how strong Kaido was 20 years ago. Everything seems to point to him getting a decent deal stronger.

Him and Oden could have been old Rayleigh level 20 years ago and still be beast, as even an old Rayleigh could hold his own with an Admiral. Them two being Low top Tiers at the time makes a lot more sense to me than him being bonafied Yonko level cause I doubt Luffy or Zoro will be that after this arc is over.

Oden should be looked at as a benchmark for Luffy and Zoro to surpass this arc, as Luffy is going to manage to do what Oden couldn’t do, which is open Wanos borders and usurp Kaido and Orochis rule over Wano.

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2020

Oden couldn't even handle a basic club swing. You can try and justify the circumstances all you want but the truth is that a single basic club swing was enough to put down Oden.

Imagine if Oden faced current Kaido? If he couldn't tank a normal club swing then he'll die if he gets hit with Kaido's Thunder Bagua.

Exactly, I love Oden he is a beast but people don’t seem to understand context, his feats are legendary but he was put in situations he could only look good coming out of as WB wasn’t serious when he clashed with Oden and neither was Roger. Circumstances are everything in a battle, we can’t just look at feats and just completely ignore the context and circumstances of it.

He got KOed by a sneak attack but if he was a bonafied Top Tier that clubbed wouldnt have laid him out that easily as I doubt Kaido even now, can do BM or Shanks like that.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

It's plainly stated that Kaido wasn't at his current level back then, but I think Oden's feats still hold up to Yonko level. I believe that Kaido's defenses haven't actually strengthened since then, ONLY his offense(remember when he spit that weak fire at Oden?), thus Kaido's defense was already Yonko level and Oden piercing Kaido means Oden's offense was Yonko level. Imo, I'd consider those two around Admiral level if they're(Admirals & Oden/Past Kaido) about as strong as Sanji & Zoro will end up. I guess Sanji would have Yonko level defense and Zoro will have Yonko level offense, then Jinbe would be the all-rounder.

 

[OG sama]

It's plainly stated that Kaido wasn't at his current level back then, but I think Oden's feats still hold up to Yonko level. I believe that Kaido's defenses haven't actually strengthened since then, ONLY his offense(remember when he spit that weak fire at Oden?), thus Kaido's defense was already Yonko level and Oden piercing Kaido means Oden's offense was Yonko level. Imo, I'd consider those two around Admiral level if they're(Admirals & Oden/Past Kaido) about as strong as Sanji & Zoro will end up. I guess Sanji would have Yonko level defense and Zoro will have Yonko level offense, then Jinbe would be the all-rounder.

Why would Kaido get stronger in one aspect of fighting and not the other? If his offense is better it’s because his Haki is better, and if his Haki is better his defense would have to be better too.

Also Kaido is buffer now than he was back then, indicating he isn’t quite the same guy he was back then. I don’t see Oden being Yonko level and I don’t think any Yonko is just going to be KOed by one sword Swing from Kaido man.

Like I have been saying I believe Oden is a benchmark to be surpassed by the end of Wano.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Why would Kaido get stronger in one aspect of fighting and not the other? If his offense is better it’s because his Haki is better, and if his Haki is better his defense would have to be better too.

Also Kaido is buffer now than he was back then, indicating he isn’t quite the same guy he was back then. I don’t see Oden being Yonko level and I don’t think any Yonko is just going to be KOed by one sword Swing from Kaido man.

Like I have been saying I believe Oden is a benchmark to be surpassed by the end of Wano.

Because the narrative implies that Kaido's scales haven't strengthened. What you're saying definitely makes sense to me, but I don't think this should be looked at so logically. It's said that Oden's swords were the only things to ever scar Kaido. With all the emphasis on this fact, I think you're supposed to treat Oden's level of offense as a milestone for Luffy to accomplish to beat current Kaido, which implies Oden's offense was enough to handle a current Yonko. Aka, yonko level offense.
@bold, this is what I'm saying. Oden only had Yonko level offense, but his defense was lacking in contrast to Kaido.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Im saying not quite cause we have no idea how strong Kaido was 20 years ago. Everything seems to point to him getting a decent deal stronger.

Him and Oden could have been old Rayleigh level 20 years ago and still be beast, as even an old Rayleigh could hold his own with an Admiral. Them two being Low top Tiers at the time makes a lot more sense to me than him being bonafied Yonko level cause I doubt Luffy or Zoro will be that after this arc is over.

Oden should be looked at as a benchmark for Luffy and Zoro to surpass this arc, as Luffy is going to manage to do what Oden couldn’t do, which is open Wanos borders and usurp Kaido and Orochis rule over Wano.

Post automatically merged: Feb 18, 2020

Exactly, I love Oden he is a beast but people don’t seem to understand context, his feats are legendary but he was put in situations he could only look good coming out of as WB wasn’t serious when he clashed with Oden and neither was Roger. Circumstances are everything in a battle, we can’t just look at feats and just completely ignore the context and circumstances of it.

He got KOed by a sneak attack but if he was a bonafied Top Tier that clubbed wouldnt have laid him out that easily as I doubt Kaido even now, can do BM or Shanks like that.

@bold fair point but he also clashed with Roger and WB. I'd say he could beat most of their 1st mates given that info. Low level yonkou if that makes sense to people, he can fight with a yonkou and hold his own for awhile but would eventually lose.

I agree with your second point about the low end of top tier.

As I said though I think it's reasonable to say we saw Oden in his prime. He possibly could have gotten even stronger but his life was cut short so we'll never truly know. We saw Oden at the strongest he'd ever be, which by definition is his prime.

Fun feat I noticed rewatching Zou the other day now with some Oden context, Momo has a bit of that strength in him as well it seems. I know his fighting with Luffy was primarily comedic effect but knowing how strong his dad was as a child I don't think it's that much of a reach to think we were seeing similar traits with him brawling with Luffy.

Why would Kaido get stronger in one aspect of fighting and not the other? If his offense is better it’s because his Haki is better, and if his Haki is better his defense would have to be better too.

Not necessarily, his offense could improve by creating new attacks, getting stronger weaponry etc.

 

[OG sama]

Because the narrative implies that Kaido's scales haven't strengthened. What you're saying definitely makes sense to me, but I don't think this should be looked at so logically. It's said that Oden's swords were the only things to ever scar Kaido. With all the emphasis on this fact, I think you're supposed to treat Oden's level of offense as a milestone for Luffy to accomplish to beat current Kaido, which implies Oden's offense was enough to handle a current Yonko. Aka, yonko level offense.
@bold, this is what I'm saying. Oden only had Yonko level offense, but his defense was lacking in contrast to Kaido.

Fair enough, what you said about his defense is certainly plausible. There’s so much unknown about Oden vs Kaido. There’s so many questions but very few answers, we don’t know if Kaido had a hybrid form at the time, an awakening, we don’t even know how strong he was compared to other top tiers. Who knows?? Maybe if Odens guard wasn’t down he wouldn’t have got KOed like that and would have used Ryou to protect his self. We don’t really have the answers and we never really do when it comes to these fights in One piece.

All I can do is infer, and compare Oden to the Current Luffy, who in my opinion is in fact bordering on that low Top tier level having just defeated a Yonko FM, mastered CoO and now CoA, Luffy should be right up there with his teacher Rayleigh at the moment, and with Kaidos inevitable defeat by his hands he’s due to be given the benefit of the doubt over him by the time this arc is over.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

Fair enough, what you said about his defense is certainly plausible. There’s so much unknown about Oden vs Kaido. There’s so many questions but very few answers, we don’t know if Kaido had a hybrid form at the time, an awakening, we don’t even know how strong he was compared to other top tiers. Who knows?? Maybe if Odens guard wasn’t down he wouldn’t have got KOed like that and would have used Ryou to protect his self. We don’t really have the answers and we never really do when it comes to these fights in One piece.

All I can do is infer, and compare Oden to the Current Luffy, who in my opinion is in fact bordering on that low Top tier level having just defeated a Yonko FM, mastered CoO and now CoA, Luffy should be right up there with his teacher Rayleigh at the moment, and with Kaidos inevitable defeat by his hands he’s due to be given the benefit of the doubt over him by the time this arc is over.

what bothers me most is crossing the gap. the gap just feels really weird.. like going from being unable to tickle Kaido to maiming him is just wild to me. It's less like learning observation haki to fight Kata, and more like going from lifting 1,000 pounds to lifting 20,000 pounds in a single day.

 

[OG sama]

what bothers me most is crossing the gap. the gap just feels really weird.. like going from being unable to tickle Kaido to maiming him is just wild to me. It's less like learning observation haki to fight Kata, and more like going from lifting 1,000 pounds to lifting 20,000 pounds in a single day.

Man I was just thinking this, but I guess Kaido really must have caused him to lose his cool, cause he is due to be a lot more competitive next round. And Kaido is due to get some good hits in as well.

It’s crazy to comprehend, like is Kaidos club supposed to be something really special or is he just lucky at hitting guys off guard? Like I said more questions and fewer answers.

 

[Like Naruto]

Let’s be real here the man was a beast, clashing with a Prime WB and Roger, and then nearly one shotting Kaido 20 years ago.

He has feats and Hype better than just about every character in the series. Even though he most definitely isn’t the strongest character in the series.

How strong was this legend in his Prime? Admiral level? Yonko level?

personally imma say he was a low Top tier, a character above FM level and not quite Yonko level, think Old Rayleigh or Ben Beckman level maybe? Kaido wasn’t probably in his prime either so it could work.

Also I would like to think Luffy or Zoro will surpass him this arc, I doubt either one of them will be legit Admiral level at the end of this arc, but most definitely after this one. So him being quite Kizaru level or Aokiji level I just don’t see.

what do you guys think?

im sure he did learn plenty of moves from both whitebeard and roger we can see when both whitebeard and roger clash without even touching each others weapons and he questioned it. So if you ask how strong he is after his journey maybe somewhere there level

 

[OG sama]

im sure he did learn plenty of moves from both whitebeard and roger we can see when both whitebeard and roger clash without even touching each others weapons and he questioned it. So if you ask how strong he is after his journey maybe somewhere there level

Do you mean on Prime WB and Roger level? I seriously doubt that.

I see a lot of people on other forums putting Oden on Prime Rayleigh Level. But I fail to see how Oden is going to be that freaking strong and then just get hit upside the head by Kaido and lose. And a weaker Kaido then the one today at that.

 

[Like Naruto]

Do you mean on Prime WB and Roger level? I seriously doubt that.

I see a lot of people on other forums putting Oden on Prime Rayleigh Level. But I fail to see how Oden is going to be that freaking strong and then just get hit upside the head by Kaido and lose. And a weaker Kaido then the one today at that.

what You mean? He can held what right now probably one of 2nd and 3rd strongest swords in the world you saw what happen to zoro when he uses oden sword right? When he was still in his teens he can wield it easily like it was nothing it means he knew a lot about haki at that young age during his teenage years and he defeated the yakuza's at that age too thats probably like what whitebeard and roger did during their teenage years long story short he already strong even when he was a kid, also why i think his somewhere their level? Think about this he was the king of ozuki clan what luffy and roger hidden powers has he also have it thats a fact that what ever they have he also wields it what i think is that ozuki clan will play a major role in the series because theyre ozuki clan thats about it

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

He didn’t really clash with Rogers, Rogers sent him flying with one hit but he took it like champ.

Oden is a hard one to gauge but he was able to permanently damage Kaido and the only one to do it. Remember Kaido’s hype was that he was captured by the navy 8 times, and now we know that no naval officer was able to create that damage on Kaido.
Besides Oden, Blackbeard was the next guy to permanently damage an Emperor too. So I’d scale Oden to PreTimeskip Blackbeard’s level who was already strong enough to beat a Division Commanders and become Emperor within 2 years.

I’m surprised that Whitebeard was able to handle such monsters in his crew.

 

[OG sama]

I think a lot of people are taking Odens feats and acting like no one else can replicate some of the things he did which I think is completely untrue.

And I have some good evidence cuz a lot of OP fans don’t like thinking with their brains they just like to wank characters and fanboy all the time.

So let’s begin:

-We’ve seen weaker characters clash with stronger ones a lot in the manga. So Odens feat of clashing with a holding back Primebeard is cool but it’s really not as crazy as you might think. WB can hold as much power back as he wants against anyone weaker than him and the clash can appear evenly when in actuality the opponent may not be any where near WBs level. Fights where much stronger characters have clashed with stronger ones include, Ace vs Aokiji, Doflamingo vs Crocodile, Mihawk vs Vista, there’s probably plenty more I can’t even think of right now so a lot of y’all should get my point.

So unless people are telling me Oden was WB level before even leaving Wano then his feat of clashing with WB really isn’t indicative of anything. He could have been MF Vista level before leaving Wano and clashed with a Prime WB cuz like I said, WB was holding back, he wasn’t even using the Gura Gura for heavens sakes.

-Not to mention Roger swatted Oden away like nothing, he definitely put some power into it but the way he effortlessly did that showcases that Oden (at least at that time) wasn’t admiral level, might have not even been YC1 level. I also have no reason to believe Roger was serious, as he had no reason to be, he wasn’t trying to kill Oden he wanted him to join his crew. So just because Oden survived an attack from Roger is once again, indicative of nothing. Roger like every other character in this series no matter how strong he is can hold back considerably and clash evenly or not immediately kill someone much weaker than him.

- He fought Kaido 20 years ago, and we have no idea how strong that Kaido even was. And yet he still went down to a single club swing up the head. Now I don’t know about you, but I have heard across the community that Top tiers can’t one shot other Top Tiers so how was Oden beaten so easily despite us seeing Kaido not even going down to Odens sword swing which he took the whole damn brunt of as he was in his dragon form and therefore was a big ass target?

Like I said, Oden was probably Old Ray level so a low Top Tier who can tango with Admirals without being immediately owned makes a lot more sense to me. Especially given the fact, this is the only arc he really gone have relevance in going forward and coincidentally, my placement for him matches up perfectly with Luffys current level right now, as in, Luffy has mastered both CoO and CoA and should be very close to Old Ray right now or by the time the battle with Kaido is over, so not only will he do what Oden couldn’t do and beat Kaido and usurp his rule over Wano but he will surpass Oden too.

The amount of OP fans that are just wanking and not even thinking and using their heads to properly scale this man is astounding to me. But I proved my point enough. I know people gone ignore the evidence but it’s whatever.

 

[Kanye]

He didn’t really clash with Rogers, Rogers sent him flying with one hit but he took it like champ.

Oden is a hard one to gauge but he was able to permanently damage Kaido and the only one to do it. Remember Kaido’s hype was that he was captured by the navy 8 times, and now we know that no naval officer was able to create that damage on Kaido.
Besides Oden, Blackbeard was the next guy to permanently damage an Emperor too. So I’d scale Oden to PreTimeskip Blackbeard’s level who was already strong enough to beat a Division Commanders and become Emperor within 2 years.

I’m surprised that Whitebeard was able to handle such monsters in his crew.

He didn’t really clash with Rogers, Rogers sent him flying with one hit but he took it like champ.

Oden is a hard one to gauge but he was able to permanently damage Kaido and the only one to do it. Remember Kaido’s hype was that he was captured by the navy 8 times, and now we know that no naval officer was able to create that damage on Kaido.
Besides Oden, Blackbeard was the next guy to permanently damage an Emperor too. So I’d scale Oden to PreTimeskip Blackbeard’s level who was already strong enough to beat a Division Commanders and become Emperor within 2 years.

I’m surprised that Whitebeard was able to handle such monsters in his crew.

You can’t really use Blackbeard scarring shanks cause we don’t know if that happened when shanks was a yonkou or not

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

You can’t really use Blackbeard scarring shanks cause we don’t know if that happened when shanks was a yonkou or not

We don’t know if Kaido was an Emperor or not in Wano at the time. We just heard that he was a powerful pirate.

 

[the big boss]

without those powerful swords , i dont think oden would have scarred kaido at all.

 

[HowDidIGetPrem]

without those powerful swords , i dont think oden would have scarred kaido at all.

Wow you have a point that I agree with, but the sword also props up how strong Oden was too. It siphoned Zoro's arm, yet not even Young Oden suffered when using the sword, thus Young Oden was potentially stronger than Zoro. Now all we gotta do is add hype into the equation. If Oden were stronger than Zoro at 18, you really gotta wonder how strong he was at around 36~ish. Current Zoro falls somewhere between 1st and 3rd Commander Level, so Oden is definitely 1st Commander+ Level by the age 36~ish.

Our disputes are truly about this giant void between Yonko level and 1st Commander. Where did Young Kaido fall between these two levels? Where does Oden fall? No one knows. But, imo, they were closer to Yonko or Admiral level than 1st Commander. I cannot imagine Katakuri penetrating Kaido's(Yonko or not) scales, and Marco is an unknown for me. Oden likely isn't Yonko level, but I don't like to see him get relegated to 1st Commander Level either.