Rikudou Tobi
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There are no scrubs in the pre timeskip Warlords. Even Moria who is regarded the weakest of the bunch is no scrub.
[Discussion] How strong the shogun of wano??
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Ooo so there is Feats? Bring them, I have never seen them. Theorized? Well, Theorys are just theorys, dont give them as true. There is a theory of Crocodile being Admiral Level, but I dont think it is true also. There is no proof for that just as Mihawk being Yonkou Level. After all there is no proof that 14 year ago Shanks was a Yonkou tier.
He lost his arm, that is all. Then he said he gave it away to save Luffy, the new era in his belief. This has nothing to do with him being a Yonkou. Also, if I ask you some scans, proof or something to validate what you are saying is because I have not seen it or read it or maybe I just didnt put much attention to those panels and forgot about it. But since you are the one that brings it out so I asume you have the source of the evidence, so just post it and we can just skip a silly discussion.
Ok, so when Ace got in Whitebeard ship, which we dont know he did that. Ace sailed the seas 3 years before Luffy, so that would just make Shanks a Yonko 3 years before the Luffy sailed the sea and this does not prove he was a Yonkou 11 years ago in chapter 1. There is a gap of 8 years.
Reading the novel, Big Mom and Whitebeard are old Generation Emperors while Kaido and Shanks are new generation Emperors. And then Shanks himself just says that a normal Pirate made his scar but never mentioned if he was a Yonkou by then. And then the same with Thatch, he doesnt know who did it to Shanks and never said what you said. He just said that if it was a commander it would be big news:
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Ok, Pudding is 16-17 years according to One Piece Wiki with source of an SBS. We know that Shanks was a Yonkou 3 years before Luffy's sailed. So, if we add the 2 years of the time skip plus the 3 years of the Novels of Ace, then 5 years ago Pudding was 11 to 12 years which might be the age of Pudding in the scan you post, we dont know the age she has in there and there is no way to prove her age Even she was 7 or 8 years as you say (which I doubt), since Pudding is 16 or 17, then 8 or 10 years ago she would be 7 or 8 years as you say and still in chapter 1 in current one piece time line after the 2 years time skip that will be 13 years ago so there is a gap of more than 3 years and it does not prove Shanks was a Yonkou. Do the math.
Besides, all we know is that Lola was in Thriller Bark for 3 years, that is all.
It is not speculation since Robin only said when did he became an Emperor, not what his accomplishments were. And as I provided with a Scan, Jimbei said that Teach conquer the territories of Whitebeard and thanks to you, I found this scan:
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You need reputation and territories to be an Emperor. So dont deny it. Who did Shanks beat to be a Yonkou? If Mihawk is equal to him why isn't he an Emperor?
So you are Oda then? It is silly, read chapter 903, the titile to Luffy of 5th Emperor was not only due beating Katakuri, the Morgans did highlight his accomplishments retrieving Sanji, destroying her castle, defeat Kata and Cracker, having an alliance of more than 5200 pirates with 7 commanders, having the charisma to make Germa and the Gyojins fight with him and still you just use that defeating Katakuri made him an Emperor. Seriously this is stupid, you are just taking out what you want and not the whole. It is clear the chapter 903 and Luffy's accomplishments and reason he is called an Emperor now and if you just want to take out that he defeated a First Mate, well there is no debate here since you twist things just to favor you even though you know you are wrong and dont want to admit it.
Yes it is, it has superior feats. Doflamingo couldnt last 20 minutes against gear 4? He lasted more than 20 minutes, it was 20 minutes off panel plus the other panels that we did see and Luffy used twice Gear 4 against Cracker, Katakuri and Doflamingo if you didnt realize.
I could say the same, I could say that Katakuri and Crakcer are weaker since Luffy did not need to use King Kong Gun against them, his strongest attack by far.
Or great, Doflamingo fought, Kyros, Fujitora, Law, Luffy, the Colosseum fighters, Sanji, Bellamy and still had the birdcage. The more you use haki the more it depletes. Doflamingo took accumulative damaged from his opponents also. Doflamingo as sitting up there since he finished everything.
Well it doesnt care if he took all or not. The thing is he did with the most according to Jimbei. And lets asume that you are right about Teach not having fleets.
So defeating Pica showed that Zoro was more dangerous than Luffy defeating Doflamingo which only added 100 million to his bounty while it added 200 million to Zoro.
So now Pica > Doflamingo in danger level? Why dont you just accept it, beating a Warlord does not give you an 100 million increase otherwise Luffy would have 170 million after defeating Crocodile since he had 70 million already. This alone breaks your rules or what you are saying which invalidates it.
So that would make Jozu admiral Level since he took momentarily Aokiji, or Vista Yonkou tier since he was equal to Mihawk. You are right.
What are we debating here? You always get out the road and talk about other things. I said that the 3 next positions after the Yonkou would be above of 550 million. After that, everything is different.
Uzumaki Macho
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How can Mihawk be a Yonko if he doesn't have a crew? It's impossible for him to govern multiple territories by himself, no matter how strong he is. Mihawk's title already confirms that he is > Shanks.
karol the don
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Shanks got superior feats in the manga than noobhawk real talk btw. Mihawk chicken out at marinefold when shanks challenged everyone on the field. Shanks soloed kaido on their clash. Shanks soloed akainu by blocking his weak punch. Shanks step up on the field without doin a dang. And noone dares to fight him . Only on this side i see few cowards think noobhawk can deal with Shanks . Watch all power rankings in youtube u see shanks is always top 5. Mihawks title is nothing worth, all top dawgs solo him with mid dif at best or even lower. Every yonko or admiral gangbangs him bratan.
Rikudou Tobi
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I've never seen any theory about Crocodile being Admiral level, and the proof that Shanks is around/near Yonko level is because he's never been stated to loose to his Yonko rival. That's a feat just in case you haven't notice.
Why don't read the whole post because I pointed out the reasons on why. You questioning Shanks giving away his harm to a Sea King as a bet being valid or not is your silly mistake and should've never been questioned in the first place.
The reason why it's a big deal is because Shanks is a Yonko, other then that everything else you posted is just repeating everything I already said.
How about you re-do your math because it's absolute trash because if you know that Shanks was yonko three years prior to Luffy setting sail, then you subtract 3 years from that decade Luffy last saw Shanks (Luffy started at setting sail at 17 years old last saw Shanks at 7 years of age), meaning that there is 7 year in between unaccounted for in the manga timeskip.
Lola being in thriller bark for 3 years mean absolutely nothing to when she set sail to look for a husband because the first place she went off to is not Thriller Park, especially when Moria was still in the New World at the time.
Pudding looks too young to be 11 or 12 years old in that picture just so you know
It is a speculation because Like I said Luffy didn't have any territories before he became a Yonko. If you don't have any proof then you have nothing to say here because that's Ace's interpretation of what it means to carry the title of a Yonko. I can care less about your opinion. Whitbeard already said that Mihawk and Shanks were legends during the era of their duels so reputation isn't an issue here.
And just so you know, being adamant about having territories being a requirement is not going to help your case since the first episode that town Shanks was in is part of his base/territories:
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No I read the book which you failed to do. Blackbeard was never to have stated of having a fleet of 7 commanders when he first became a Yonko, it was only mentioned after defeating Marco w/crew. I have read chapter 903 and you have to be a complete retarded if you think having a grand fleet makes you a yonko. Even Shiki lion more than that yet he still wasn't a Yonko. Luffy gained the Yonko title because of who he defeated and that's all that was said in the manga, so even if you want to remain stupid in believing gathering more people is what attributed to his title then that's your logic and not Oda's. Doflamingo who has way more subordinates a territory, charisma and all that other rubbish you mentioned yet he still doesn't have any Yonko status so you logic is just baseless.
King Kong Gun being Luffy's strongest attack is a speculation and Doflamingo's fight with Gear 4 Luffy was not longer than 20 minutes, go and read that fight again. During the whole fight they had Luffy spanked Doflamingo with 5 moves and then finished him with one more.
We have seen Luffy use Gear 4 against Dogtooth and Cracker twice, BounceMan wasn't able to put them down so Luffy needed to resort to a different transformation for both fighters. This is common sense and to compare Doflamingo to the two is just dumb.
Doflamingo didn't fight Kryos and Doflamingo never fought Fujitora. Go and read that chapter again because it's clear that you didn't read. That fight was Fujitori and Doflamingo vs Law, you can see Admiral Issho beating Law's ass before Doflamingo dealt with him.
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Doflamingo didn't fight those Colosseum fighters, now you're just wanking him with fanfic feats. The only people that went after him during the end was king riku's soldiers which
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. It means absolutely nothing.
Sanji gained more than that yet he didn't fight anybody so I don't know why you like acting so stubborn and idiotic. Zoro's bounty jumped due to DANGER LEVEL AND ASSOCIATION. Pica doesn't determine Zoro's danger level but Luffy beating another Warlord does because the Warlord is a level of Govt. power.
When Luffy beat Crocodile his 30 milli went to 100 milli, after beating Moria his 300 milli went to 400 milli, and after beating Dofy his 400 milli went up to 500 milli. So there's nothing wrong here you can go check read it yourself.
Vista never fought equally with Mihawk, the whole thing wasn't even a battle and it was a conversation if anything. That's just as stupid as saying Shanks fought Whitebeard on his ship.
Jozu didn't momentarily take out Aokiji, he blitzed him like he did Crocodile and both of these guys came back for a counterattack. Momentarily taking out Jozu means that he attacked him and never came back or provided a counter attack. So don't try to act like a smart ass because Jozu couldn't put Crocodile away.
I didn't go off anywhere, why don't you pay attention to what you type next time:
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And 550 million bounty is irrelevant and not even something you use to gauge a position on a Yonko ship
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HowDidIGetPrem
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Moriah is scrub capable of scaling past Pirate King level. Take away preparation and you take away that capability.
Rikudou Tobi
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So according to your horrible logic, Linlin would be considered a scrub too since the same applies? Moria is not a scrub, and it hardly takes any preparation to take people's shadows like it does for Linlin to take people's souls.
Moria knocked out Oars Jr. with his
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and it seemed like he killed him from the way he collapsed
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. Moria beat him in his base form, so you know that naturally he's stronger than the standard vice admiral level, add shadow Asgard moria and that's a different story.There's nothing about him that makes him a scrub especially when he's stronger than a VA in base, zombie body Oars, and shadow Asgard Moria.
HowDidIGetPrem
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Hah, he thinks Moriah can snag the hundreds of souls required to compete with the likes of Doflamingo within an instant. The difference is Big Mom doesn't have to rely on stealing souls. That gimmick is 90% of what's going for Moriah's weakass.
Rikudou Tobi
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Linlin used other people’s souls to utilize her Homies in combat. The only one that uses hers directly is Prometheus, Zeus, and Napoleon. :|
And during the war Moria pulled out like 10 or 15 zombies at the spot. Even when he went Asgard Moria he was absorbing shadows that he’s taken a long time ago. So you need to stop talking like a dumbass because clearly you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
chopstickchakra
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Without the shadows Moriah goes down without the homies BM is still nigh invincible. That's the point he's been trying to make. Moriah needs his shadows BM doesn't need her collected soul homies.
HowDidIGetPrem
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I wonder how much of his time it took to make the zombies that Pre-Timeskip Brook beat up.
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That is not a feat, that is hype. And once again, he never lost to an Unknown tier Shanks 13 years ago.
You are saying he gave it away for the new generation. Here are two interpretations:
- He gave his arm as a sacrifice for the new generation which would mean he did this intentionally and is a kind of tribute.
- He sacrifice his arm to be able to save Luffy. Which means he saved Luffy who he believed is gonna create the generation and didn't care if he loses an arm for it.
Yes, because Shanks is a Yonkou, not because he was a Yonkou back then. And what I said is not repeating you since you stated that this proves Shanks is a Yonkou which it doesnt. Now, Teach did not dare to fight Shanks at marineford which is Yonkou Tier, but back then he did battle Shanks and not even the crew of Shanks knows about that Scar.
- Current Time Line:
- Luffy is 19
- Pudding 16-17 years. Lets asume 16.5
- Lola got to thriller 5 years ago
- Shanks arrived to east blue 13 years ago (since he stood for a year)
- Post Time Skip
- Luffy is 17 years.
- Pudding is 14.5 years.
- Lola arrived at thriller bark 3 years ago
- Shanks arrived at east blue 11 years ago.
- Ace leaves east blue to become pirate at age 17 (3 years before post time skip)
- Luffy is 14 years old
- Pudding is 11.5 years
- Lola arrives to Thriller bark
- Shanks is arrived at east blue 8 years ago and there is clear evidence he a Yonkou by this time
Base =/= Territory.
So now it is an interpretation, so Robin is also an interpretation. Do you know how to debate? Calling anything against your stand as speculation, interpretation, false, stupid, featless, bla bla bla. But even if you dont have nothing you called true what you are saying. This is stupid.
It is a fact that Luffy has not territories under his name. I dont denied it. But you cant deny the reason he is considered an Emperor:
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- Challenging directly an Emperor that has not been challenge.
- Has 7 Commanders
- A fleet over 5000 Pirates under him
- Made Germa 66, Sun Pirates and Firetank Pirates fight at his side.
- Executed a plan and destroyed Big Mom Castle, not a part, literally all her castle.
- Defeated Cracker
- Defeated Katakuri
Yes, what is next after First Mate? Yonkou tier, it is true. But to be an Emperor you dont just need to be stronger than a First Mate, there is a lot of things to fulfill before being consider an Emperor. And if you just deny it then we have a problem here, and the problem is here is you, your pride to say you are wrong.
I dont deny what Robin said. She said that after he defeated Marco, he was known as the new Emperor, not that he is an Emperor because he defeated Marco. That is two different things.
- Yes, I just look at the pictures as a 3 year old kid.
- There was no Yonko Title, that came after Roger death, a way to call the pirates near to get the One Piece. Scan down
- I never said that having a big fleets makes you and Emperor. I said all Luffy's accomplishments.
- Doflamingo does not have nothing to do here since he was a Warlord.
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Speculation? Just as I said above, as long as an argument is against your thoughts, anything is dumb or speculation.
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Chapter 783 Page 16 Doflamingo says that the birdcage will finish in an hour. Next two pages, Luffy enters to gear 4. Luffy hide for 10 minutes. And the remaining time for the birdcage was 3 minutes. So Doflamingo fought gear 4 for 47 minutes. And then a second time where he lost. It was only 20 minutes off panel.
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This was what I wanted you to say. So, then look:
"The Colosseum, half of the executives, the officers, the grunts, trebol, and bellamy. What kind of question is that? The more you use haki the more it depletes. All that time Luffy was fighting taking accumulative damages from the opponents in Dressrosa, Dofy was sitting up there with Trebol doing nothing at all."
This is what you said.
Vs the Colosseum
- Was fighting Fodders
- Was playing with the Bull whille everone was fighting
- One Shotted an Elbaf
- Then avoid hit of a Bounty Hunter that Don Chinjao One shotted
- Kicked the last warriors and only Don Chinjao remained.
- And not even Don Chinjao was a challenge, he defeated him with 2 main hits and a Haki Clash.
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And after this, he replenish his energy:
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Vs Half Executives
- Vs Pica, Zoro stood on his way all the time so Luffy just ran.
- And all the others barely fought him since everyone helped him to get to Doflamingo
- Vs Trebol he never fought, Trebol just stick him to the floor and that is all.
It was Doflamingo ontrolling him, so this is no problem.
So Luffy was far from being tired.
And how did they determine Zoro Danger? Wasnt it fighting Pica?
So Luffy's Bounty would have been 130 million. My bad, it still stands and proves that there is no 100 million bounty increase after defeating a Warlord.
Oda himself said Vista was equa vs Mihawk in marineford in the Databook. And I used the same kind of arguments as you did, that is why they are stupid.
Yes you did. Bringing Oven to see if he can beat a commander.
Rikudou Tobi
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Or the wano zombie he created that beat up Pre Timeskip Brook?
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Rikudou Tobi
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HowDidIGetPrem
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You have a point. I think I finally understand what you mean... It only took finding a legendary body from 500 years prior & Luffy's shadow to make his most powerful zombie. Imagine how effortless it is to make weaker ones. All Moriah has to do now is either beat up a firstmate or dig up their body & then obtain the shadow of someone powerful, such as Doflamingo, to attach to the body. No biggie.
Rikudou Tobi
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If you bothered to see the latest chapter, you would know that he obtained Ryuma’s body 23 year ago when he and Kaido were still fighting each other. So you can cut the 500 year crap.
And if you saw how effortlessly he took Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji’s shadow, then you’d keep your mouth quiet.
He took Luffy’s shadow within seconds upon meeting each other and used it for Oars body making him a great ordeal to beat.
Asgard Moria he pulled shadows from every zombie he ressurected and during the war he pulled out 10-15 instantaneously which he didn’t even use.
Even if he pulls a bunch of fodders, do realize that he dragged 900 fodders souls to create Asgard Moria in the first place. :|
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HowDidIGetPrem
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@Bold, I was referring to Oars. I'm saying these bodies aren't commonplace and that they're still shit despite their rarity. 23 Years and this is best he could muster out?
@Red, why do you think him stepping over the Pre-Timeskip Strawhats is so noteworthy? He hadn't even taken their shadows while 1v1ing them to our knowledge. The guy had assistance atop of it all. Luffy was literally chained up, attacked by Perona, and then Invisible Guy had to shine a flashlight. Robin was legitimately out smarted though. We do not know how the rest went down since it happened off-panel.
This is the knowledge we have of how their shadows were taken.
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Why does that matter? It's not like his few zombies and shadows provide any substantial help on the higher level. What is there to say those weren't already underground?
@Blue, over the course of 2 decades, he's snagged 900 fodders. Amazing. Given that all those zombies were created over the course of many years, why do you think I say he's weak without preparation?
Even with all the shadows he accumulated, he still lost to Pre-Timneskip Luffy who had held much less. Do you think Moriah would conveniently have one thousand shadows with him everywhere he goes?
I do not deny his hax nor Crocodile's though.
Rikudou Tobi
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Pay attention and learn how to read properly. Moria wasn't in Thriller Park for 23 years, he obtained Ryuma 23 years ago when he was in Wano fighting against Kaido.
It didn't take 23 years to obtain that body, he already had that body 23 years ago so that means he has many others out there that he's obtained throughout the years.
Shinning a flashlight is not considered helping, I don't know what kind of pathetic excuse is that and Persona, really? That fodder is an excuse now? It was Moria who cut his shadow out and Luffy wasn't affected by persona's ability during the process.
And Pre Timskip Luffy with 300 million beli is note worthy especially when his shadow alone made Oars that powerful, add that with all the other shadow he commands over the years and you have a really powerful Moria. Moria's strength is to accumulate shadows from others upon his own strength.
Moria off paneling them just further proves my point and how easy it is to take away people's shadows.
It matters because Moria can pull as many shadows as he wants at anytime, did you not pay attention to what you're saying earlier? He didn't use those zombie soldiers on himself and he was trying to get Luffy so that he can put him in Oars Jr's body before Jimbei intervened.
It doesn't take two decades to swipe 900 fodders especially when they were shadows that he wasn't using before. He immediately draw out 15 during the marineford so easily he can draw out 100s of fodders if he wanted to. Saying that he's a fodder without preparations is just as retarded as saying Big mom is a fodder without preparations. Or did you forget that Big mom had Zeus, Prometheus, and Napoleon the same amount of time Moria gained all his shadows?
Naturally he's suppose to lose because that's what the plot demanded. Moria was slipping in and out of consciousness thanks to the damage he sustained from NightMare Luffy (and nightmare luffy is no fodder) and he lost because a castle dropped on his face. The Big mom's pirtes lives where threatened just because they were about to fall of a cake castle now imagine what will happen when a stone wall castle falls on your face? You're getting knocked out regardless of how powerful you think you are, even Jinbei would get knocked out if a castle fell on his face.
His mastery over his devil fruit is what makes him formidble to be a Warlord despite going
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.Crocodile is out of the question here and he's shown that if they were on land he can take on Jimbei in a one on one match if not beat him. Everything he did in the impel down and the marinford countered everything he did in the alabsta arc. He one-shot awakened guards in the impel down that matched G3 giant pistol and 5,000 brick fist, the same 5,000 brick fist that Jimbei used to one-shot Minister Opera too, Crocodile matched that power with Sables on the impel awakened guard.
On top of that he sent Jozu flying in one-shot after tanking his haki covered brilliant punk, an attack so powerful that when he blitzed Admiral aokiji he fell on the floor bleeding for a little while (one-shots Jozu later), Crocodile recovered mid air and landed on his two feet. Then you talk about the
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.Marineford Crocodile is clearly Warlord level at the very least up there with Jimbei and you can tell that his lost in Alabasta is PIS.
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