How Intelligent is Karin?

shelke

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I never said her sensory was derived from a clan KKG, the reference wasn't aimed at Karin. What I said was sakura managed to rise shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade Senju-Uzumaki without any of the benefits Tsunade had but instead only had her talent to lean on.

No, you implied that Sakura learning something makes it a big deal, when healing and sensing have nothing to do with any bloodlines. Ino learning healing has nothing to do with her bloodline, when they specialize in sensing.


Tsunades arsenal.. Medical Ninjutsu is what she mastered... And sakura learned more then on ability from Tsunade.

And how big is that arsenal? It only has one tech. Unless, I am being trolled here?

Yes.. Herself = Karin :scorps:

No, you mean, Sakura; how she stupidly planned and nearly got killed twice in the process?


Which is why sakura healed her?
Lol stop trying to derail the argument, who said Karin was healed out of the goodness of sakuras heart? NOBODY
LOL SIMPLE? NOPE, INO IS A SIMPLE HEALER RIGHT? DID SHE SAVE ASUMA? IT TAKES SKILL TO HEAL FATAL WOUNDS

Sakura healed her for intel. You implied that Karin surving was something of pivotal importance, if anything else, when circumstances make it a trivial occurance. And yes, that was a common healing tech. Asuma couldn't be healed as Hidan had performed the ritual by then. There is no way in hell he could have survived. Yes, it was so fatal that Sasuke was about to use Chidori on her to finish the job when Sakura showed up and even asked her to do so as well. So fatal, right? Sure.

Irrelevant, I never suggested that sakura could've summoned the 10% by herself. Argue with the manga..

Argue what with the manga? Her healing thousands? I don't need to, because it is absurd. It isn't irrelevant as you claimed thousands, when she lacked the capacity on her own to summon a larger Katsuya to heal more. Common sense is uncommon?

There you go.
 
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Melanin

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There you go.

No, you implied that Sakura learning something makes it a big deal

What she learned is the big deal, how many individuals individuals the manga walk can produce a S-Rank Uzumaki seal? Then tell me how many of them can trigger cellular regeneration? How many master's of medical ninjutsu are in the manga?

when healing and sensing have nothing to do with any bloodlines

No one said healing derived from bloodlines (even though they can; Hashirama/Karin being an example) and I certainly never implied that Karins sensory comes from her clan ties. That's something you've misconstrued some how but you do that alot.

Ino learning healing has nothing to do with her bloodline, when they specialize in sensing.

Keep up with your argument, the reason I mentioned Ino was because you said that any simple healer could've healed Karins wounds. Need the quote?

Fact: Ino is a simple healer!

Fact: Ino couldn't heal nor save Asuma with her simple healing.

Conclusion: simple healing isn't worth comparison to what Sakura's healing abilities extend too.

And how big is that arsenal? It only has one tech. Unless, I am being trolled here?

Lol you are the troll at this point, Sakura/Tsunades arsenal includes many different techniques.

No, you mean, Sakura; how she stupidly planned and nearly got killed twice in the process?

No I mean how she healed the alliance 2×, kept Naruto alive, transferred chakra to obito so he could jump dimensions, cracking Zetsu transformation technique, performing an autopsy ect....

Sakura healed her for intel. You implied that Karin surving was something of pivotal importance, if anything else, when circumstances make it a trivial occurance.

The only thing I implied is that sakura healed and saved Karin from dying just has Karin healed Tsunade (kages by extension). I never referenced the motivations behind either situation, I just stated them as facts (which they are). You seem to have a hard time staying in the topic you've purposed..

And yes, that was a common healing tech. Asuma couldn't be healed as Hidan had performed the ritual by then.

He died because of the wound to his chest, which was caused by the curse. Asuma died because of hemorrhaging, injury or anything subject to those two descriptions. Medical ninjutsu can combat both of those things directly but Ino's healing skill wasn't good enough to combat her sensei's wounds. While sakura was able to heal Karins similar wounds with any problems or hesitations so yea......

There is no way in hell he could have survived.

Without a skilled healer around? Yes.

If Tsunade or Sakura was there things would've been diffrent.

Yes, it was so fatal that Sasuke was about to use Chidori on her to finish the job when Sakura showed up and even asked her to do so as well. So fatal, right? Sure.
[/B]

Yea it was fatal? Got a dictionary?
 

shelke

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What she learned is the big deal, how many individuals individuals the manga walk can produce a S-Rank Uzumaki seal? Then tell me how many of them can trigger cellular regeneration? How many master's of medical ninjutsu are in the manga?

No one said healing derived from bloodlines (even though they can; Hashirama/Karin being an example) and I certainly never implied that Karins sensory comes from her clan ties. That's something you've misconstrued some how but you do that alot.

Who the heck cares? The point I made was that her learning has jack to do with her having some bloodline or not. So, making it a big deal, that, "look, she learnt all that crap because she doesn't even have a bloodline," makes no sense as healing has nothing to do with bloodlines. You are the one who made this point. Not me. And how many students did Tsunade take? Two? One failed and the other learnt? Those odds!

Keep up with your argument, the reason I mentioned Ino was because you said that any simple healer could've healed Karins wounds. Need the quote?

Fact: Ino is a simple healer!

Fact: Ino couldn't heal nor save Asuma with her simple healing.

Conclusion: simple healing isn't worth comparison to what Sakura's healing abilities extend too.

Yes, she couldn't have. Your reasoning is absurd as nobody could have healed Asuma. Throw in SS as well, and it would have done nothing as the ritual was done a while back. If his riutal wounds could be healed, a Jin wouldn't have died to it. Literally nobody could have fixed that. I suggest you stop making stuff up and read the manga. Karin's wounds weren't that fatal as Sasuke was about to finish the job himself, where as Danzo was left to bleed out and die as his was fatal. Nobody had to finish the job there.


Lol you are the troll at this point, Sakura/Tsunades arsenal includes many different techniques.

Such as?

No I mean how she healed the alliance 2×, kept Naruto alive, transferred chakra to obito so he could jump dimensions, cracking Zetsu transformation technique, performing an autopsy ect....

And? That doesn't mean thousands. Cracking Zetsu's tech has what to do with healing thousands? You are just mad, aren't you?

The only thing I implied is that sakura healed and saved Karin from dying just has Karin healed Tsunade (kages by extension). I never referenced the motivations behind either situation, I just stated them as facts (which they are). You seem to have a hard time staying in the topic you've purposed..

What topic? The point I made has been left in a quagmire of poor fanboyism from you.

He died because of the wound to his chest, which was caused by the curse. Asuma died because of hemorrhaging, injury or anything subject to those two descriptions. Medical ninjutsu can combat both of those things directly but Ino's healing skill wasn't good enough to combat her sensei's wounds. While sakura was able to heal Karins similar wounds with any problems or hesitations so yea......

Asuma died because of the ritual and that his wound was left untreated for so long. People tend to bleed out, you know. We also know that not all wounds can be healed, otherwise, Tsunade would have healed Dan, Gai or fixed Naruto's chakra veins that were a step away from being destroyed after using FRS only once. Lee also wouldn't have been a subject of a 50/50 miracle recovery.

Without a skilled healer around? Yes.

If Tsunade or Sakura was there things would've been diffrent.

How? Why? Just like with Dan? Just like of the things I mentioned?

Yea it was fatal? Got a dictionary?

Fatal enough that someone had to finish the job?

Bolded parts.
 
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Made in Heaven

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Inate - existing in one from birth; inborn; native: 2. inherent in the essential character of something: an innate defect in the hypothesis.

THE Adamant Sealing Chains is a Uzumaki KKG so its inate and not something any can associate with.


My God, please don't define words for me. I know what it is.

Nope, not a Bloodline limit, as stated in the 4th Databook. Never once is it called a Bloodline limit.


WHAT? COUNTERING Sasoris poison when no one in the sand village could isn't noteworthy? Removing poison from a persons cellular structure by infusing your chakra to their cells isn't noteworthy!? Lol bye
.
Used the word hardly for a reason, pal.


If Karin had chakra she wkukdve healed herself without a doubt but she couldn't which is why sakura did.

Someone who survived multiple stabs can't survive one without Sakura's help?
 

Melanin

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My God, please don't define words for me. I know what it is.

Nope, not a Bloodline limit, as stated in the 4th Databook. Never once is it called a Bloodline limit.

The databook says it's a Uzumakai secret technique that only a select of clan members can use....

Someone who survived multiple stabs can't survive one without Sakura's help?

Yes, or else she would've healed the wounds Sasuke gave her. Like I said before if she would've had chakra she could've healed herself but she didn't. That's why Kakashi asked Sakura to heal Karin at least to the point where could speak.




So yes Karin needed Sakura to heal her. XD
 

Melanin

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Bolded parts.

Who the heck cares? The point I made was that her learning has jack to do with her having some bloodline or not. So, making it a big deal, that, "look, she learnt all that crap because she doesn't even have a bloodline," makes no sense as healing has nothing to do with bloodlines. You are the one who made this point. Not me. And how many students did Tsunade take? Two? One failed and the other learnt? Those odds!

1. I never said learning had anything to do with bloodlines, ever never! What I said was she surpassed Tsunade with Tsunades bloodline benefits and Sakura managing to match a senju/uzumaki hybrid with talent alone means her talent is outstanding. Lmao don't conflate the conversation, if you can't keep up then just say so...


Yes, she couldn't have. Your reasoning is absurd as nobody could have healed Asuma. Throw in SS as well, and it would have done nothing as the ritual was done a while back. If his riutal wounds could be healed, a Jin wouldn't have died to it. Literally nobody could have fixed that. I suggest you stop making stuff up and read the manga. Karin's wounds weren't that fatal as Sasuke was about to finish the job himself, where as Danzo was left to bleed out and die as his was fatal. Nobody had to finish the job there.

1. Your not reading the manga! Asuma died because his heart was impaled through Hidan's ritual voodoo process. Asuma died because of the physical damage done to his body, the ritual was simply the catalyst of Asuma's death. You cannot prove with any manga evidence that the wounds from Hidans ritual are impervious to medical ninjutsu but I would love to see you try.
2. Karins wounds were fatal kid, so fatal that she couldn't even talk. Read the manga!

Such as?

* Cell Activation Technique

* Chakra Enhanced Strength

* Chakra Scalpel

* Chakra Transfer Technique

* Combined Summoning Technique

* Creation Rebirth

* Heaven Spear Kick

* Heavenly Foot of Pain

* Katsuyu: Immense Network Healing

* Mystical Palm Technique

* Ninja Art Creation Rebirth — Strength of a Hundred Technique

* Strength of a Hundred Seal

* Summoning Technique (Slug)

* Transformation Technique

* Yin Seal: Release

And? That doesn't mean thousands. Cracking Zetsu's tech has what to do with healing thousands? You are just mad, aren't you?

1. Sakura healed the entire alliance.
2. Cracking Zetsu's technique has nothing to do with her healing the entire alliance; it's only another reason why Sakura is more talented. I'm sure you can separate the objectives and apply them on the diction to which they belong even though you have a hard time dealing with that. Are you mad?

What topic? The point I made has been left in a quagmire of poor fanboyism from you.

It makes sense now, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TOPIC IS. So I can't fault your attempts to derail the discussion because you don't know what the discussion is about. Anyway I'll make it simple: Sakura being more talented and smarter is fanboyism , it's a fact.

Anyway Sakura is more talented and smarter then Karin, the intelligence aspect of this conversation isn't up for a logical debate.
 

Kakooli

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No duh. She is literally a civilian-type character thrown into a situations far too grand for her. The cause for her relevance (a term which I use loosely) to anything that goes on in the series is literally only because of being in Team 7. She's as out of place on Team 7 as someone like Tenten if she were to be put in Sakura's place, and nothing makes this more obvious than the shoehorned ways she's made to be "relevant" whereas Sasuke, Naruto, and Kakashi's relevance comes naturally. Maybe of she was a Senju, things could have been different with her, but even then, she'd need her own story outside of chasing Sasuke.

hey! kaguya profile pic!


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Warlocks

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Lmao some people will say just about anything if it means undermining Sakura.

only reason sakura can heal an entire army

cuz she had chakra that she stored in yin seal for 3 years

and its suicide tech

users of this technique are basically shortening their natural lifespan

without suicide tech

Karin>sakura
 

Melanin

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only reason sakura can heal an entire army

cuz she had chakra that she stored in yin seal for 3 years

Bingo that vary feat is the pinnacle of chakra control which says what about her ability to control chakra and in turn her talent? Only three people on the entire manga have had the means to produce the Yin Seal, I'll let Shizune take it from here...

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and its suicide tech

No it's a S-rank Uzumaki finjutsu, a fortbiden technique at that.

users of this technique are basically shortening their natural lifespan

If you over use it but regenerating instantly in battle is noteable and having the means to manifest it says you chakra control is at the highest it can be. Which means? You have to have talent and skill above a majority...

Karin>sakura

XD
 

shelke

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1. I never said learning had anything to do with bloodlines, ever never! What I said was she surpassed Tsunade with Tsunades bloodline benefits and Sakura managing to match a senju/uzumaki hybrid with talent alone means her talent is outstanding. Lmao don't conflate the conversation, if you can't keep up then just say so...

Debatable. And what bloodline benefits? Here we go again. What does her tech learning have anything to do with her bloodline benefits?

1. Your not reading the manga! Asuma died because his heart was impaled through Hidan's ritual voodoo process. Asuma died because of the physical damage done to his body, the ritual was simply the catalyst of Asuma's death. You cannot prove with any manga evidence that the wounds from Hidans ritual are impervious to medical ninjutsu but I would love to see you try.
2. Karins wounds were fatal kid, so fatal that she couldn't even talk. Read the manga!

1. And who denied that? A Bijuu can heal missing chunks of a lung, but, it couldn't heal a stab in the heart? It was a combination of both. Kabuto had to cut out chakra veins to prevent Kurama from healing Naruto in part one. Otherwise, they can heal everything from the looks of it.
2. So fatal that Sasuke had to finish the job. And yes, she couldn't talk, which is why this happened:


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Such as?

* Chakra Scalpel

* Chakra Transfer Technique

* Combined Summoning Technique

* Creation Rebirth

* Heaven Spear Kick

* Heavenly Foot of Pain

* Katsuyu: Immense Network Healing

* Mystical Palm Technique

* Ninja Art Creation Rebirth — Strength of a Hundred Technique

* Strength of a Hundred Seal

* Summoning Technique (Slug)

* Transformation Technique

* Yin Seal: Release

And how many of these are simply borne of her Medic Ninjutsu?

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Only all of them bar summoning. So, she learnt nothing new like I said other than SS and its required development? Good to know.


1. Sakura healed the entire alliance.
2. Cracking Zetsu's technique has nothing to do with her healing the entire alliance; it's only another reason why Sakura is more talented. I'm sure you can separate the objectives and apply them on the diction to which they belong even though you have a hard time dealing with that. Are you mad?

Entire alliance? What was the rest of the medic division doing; sitting around and watching before Tsunade showed up? Show me one panel that backs up this claim even if Tsunade is added into this equation. One. Cracking the tech saved many, it didn't heal anybody. What kind of absurd comment is that? Who is mad? You are the one who got annoyed and decided upon this bickering session. Not me.

It makes sense now, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TOPIC IS. So I can't fault your attempts to derail the discussion because you don't know what the discussion is about. Anyway I'll make it simple: Sakura being more talented and smarter is fanboyism , it's a fact.

Anyway Sakura is more talented and smarter then Karin, the intelligence aspect of this conversation isn't up for a logical debate.

Too debatable for words. Nothing you stated is a fact. Nothing. And, trust me, you are not some paragon of logic. You never have been. Your silly comments on SS prove that you cannot be taken that seriously.
 
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Calpal

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Smart AF. And she's the best kunoichi in the show IMO
 

Melanin

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Your making things to easy!

Debatable. And what bloodline benefits? Here we go again. What does her tech learning have anything to do with her bloodline benefits?

> Since I'm speaking directly about Tsunade & Sakura here you go.. Tsunade was genetically blessed with large chakra reserves, immense vitality, a high variety of stamina and a strong body. Which all make many of her techniques easily assessable an example would be: manifesting The Yin Seal without without a three year delay. Tsunade used every stitch of her chakra in her body and seal to protect the village from Pain (which is why her seal disappeared) but shortly after Tsunades seal reformed again and it was without the three year delay it took Sakura to form hers. That's simply because she had access to a larger base of chakra to collect from.<

And who denied that? A Bijuu can heal missing chunks of a lung, but, it couldn't heal a stab in the heart? It was a combination of both. Kabuto had to cut out chakra veins to prevent Kurama from healing Naruto in part one. Otherwise, they can heal everything from the looks of it.

> there you go again trying to derail he argument with off topic banter but as I said before it won't work. NOBODY MENTIONED, ASSOCIATED or REFRENCED the healing properties a Bijuu can offer so I won't even entertain this... What we were discussing is Ino's simple healing abilities and how they were unable to heal Asuma's grave/fatal wounds. You've made it a point to say that any character with simple healing abilities can heal fatal/grave wounds, which I proved to be false. You then went onto infer that the wounds Asuma sustained from Hidan through the ritual or his curse trumps medical ninjutsu or healing. I then asked for you to prove that it did....... <

So fatal that Sasuke had to finish the job. And yes, she couldn't talk, which is why this happened:

(1) Fatal means causing or capable of causing death guy, meaning left unattended she would've died (2) ask Kakashi if she could speak., <

And how many of these are simply borne of her Medic Ninjutsu?

CES, Summoning Katsuyu, Katsuyu: Immense Network Healing, Ninja Art Creation Rebirth — Strength of a Hundred Technique, Strength of a Hundred Seal, Yin Seal: Release and each of those techniques are the most difficult of medical techniques; which are only used by two shinobi.

Entire alliance? What was the rest of the medic division doing;

Yes the entire alliance!

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And the rest of the medical division was doing what Shizune was doing in that moment, watching!

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Because if Shizune and the rest of the healing ninjas were helping heal the alliance within that moment of chaphter 634 a scan/panel would've illustrated something similar to what's below, which includes Shizune and the rest of the healing unit actually healing.

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Not participating as bystandards as Shizune is doing below.

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Manga facts!

Show me one panel that backs up this claim even if Tsunade is added into this equation.

I don't need to add Tsunade to the equation tbh..

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One. Cracking the tech saved many, it didn't heal anybody.

Your a troll!

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What kind of absurd comment is that?

Sakura health no the entire alliance is absurd?

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Who is mad? You are the one who got annoyed and decided upon this bickering session. Not me.

Should I be mad at your trolling? Lol posting facts isn't bickering lol
 

King Of Pop

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Her intelligence is okay at best. nothing spectacular or groundbreaking
 

nk07ki30

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Oh my gosh..... i knew it all along..... it's Aizen's zanpakuto! Kyoka Suigetsu!!!!!!!
 

shelke

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Your making things to easy!

Yup, you couldn't have made this easier:

40,000 died on the very first day of battle before the second day even began:

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Madara wipes out, from the looks of it, the entirety of fourth division through meteors alone, which must have been made up of at least 20K people:

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This is the "allied alliance" that shows up after all has failed: Basically, what was left of almost the entire five divisions that was made up of 80,000 people when the war started. This was a last ditch effort on their part. Take a good look at their numbers:

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Ninjas were already being healed on the field by the medics that had shit to do with Sakura (she is nowhere to be seen there) as an entire "Medic Corps" was healing people. Better pick up a dictionary as to what the term "corps" means. It would do you good:

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Oh yeah, where was I? Yes, Madara and Obito wiped out the headquarters as well, killing many there too:

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They also wiped out countless "allied Shinobi" that showed up to aid Naruto:

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And I haven't even touched upon the countless more killed by Kages in the scenes. Did you actually state that Sakura healed the "ENTIRE" alliance? How embarrassing!

> Since I'm speaking directly about Tsunade & Sakura here you go.. Tsunade was genetically blessed with large chakra reserves, immense vitality, a high variety of stamina and a strong body. Which all make many of her techniques easily assessable an example would be: manifesting The Yin Seal without without a three year delay. Tsunade used every stitch of her chakra in her body and seal to protect the village from Pain (which is why her seal disappeared) but shortly after Tsunades seal reformed again and it was without the three year delay it took Sakura to form hers. That's simply because she had access to a larger base of chakra to collect from.<

Funny, because small chakra makes chakra control easier like Kakashi stated in part one:

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So, a tech that pretty much hinges on chakra control was learnt (still in a long period of three whole years), because her reserves are too tiny; and basically, her small reserves aided her in learning it? In short, her lack of high reserves associated with Uchiha became a good reason for her ability? Good to know.

> there you go again trying to derail he argument with off topic banter but as I said before it won't work. NOBODY MENTIONED, ASSOCIATED or REFRENCED the healing properties a Bijuu can offer so I won't even entertain this... What we were discussing is Ino's simple healing abilities and how they were unable to heal Asuma's grave/fatal wounds. You've made it a point to say that any character with simple healing abilities can heal fatal/grave wounds, which I proved to be false. You then went onto infer that the wounds Asuma sustained from Hidan through the ritual or his curse trumps medical ninjutsu or healing. I then asked for you to prove that it did....... <

So, I shouldn't talk of the same underlying reasons for two Shinobis deaths? This guy!

(1) Fatal means causing or capable of causing death guy, meaning left unattended she would've died (2) ask Kakashi if she could speak., <

Based on what? Why did Sasuke need to finish the job? You know, two people with Sharingan decided that she actually needed to be put down? Makes so much sense.

CES, Summoning Katsuyu, Katsuyu: Immense Network Healing, Ninja Art Creation Rebirth — Strength of a Hundred Technique, Strength of a Hundred Seal, Yin Seal: Release and each of those techniques are the most difficult of medical techniques; which are only used by two shinobi.

Huh? It's a variation of her medical Ninjutsu. Like I stated in the previous post; lucky that her chakra was so small for better control.

Yes the entire alliance!

And the rest of the medical division was doing what Shizune was doing in that moment, watching!

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Because if Shizune and the rest of the healing ninjas were helping heal the alliance within that moment of chapter 634 a scan/panel would've illustrated something similar to what's below, which includes Shizune and the rest of the healing unit actually healing.

Not participating as bystandards as Shizune is doing below.

Manga facts!

Yup, just like I showed above; the entire alliance. Not the under-thousand or so leftovers of it! No, sir! Sakura healed 80,000 people. You heard it from Pasta!

Your a troll!

Should I be mad at your trolling? Lol posting facts isn't bickering lol

Yup, a troll, indeed, which is better than being a Sakura or a Hinata wanker, when you just called "strength" a separate tech when the databook calls it nothing more than a spin upon her medic Ninjutsu. Her jutsu list is shit. Just accept it. She invented jack on her own. Your attempts are too comical, though. Too comical for words.
 
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JStar King

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Well, she was able to figure out Danzo's Izanami.
 

JStar King

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Yup, you couldn't have made this easier:

40,000 died on the very first day of battle before the second day even began:

You must be registered for see images

Madara wipes out, from the looks of it, the entirety of fourth division through meteors alone, which must have been made up of at least 20K people:

You must be registered for see images

This is the "allied alliance" that shows up after all has failed: Basically, what was left of almost the entire five divisions that was made up of 80,000 people when the war started. This was a last ditch effort on their part. Take a good look at their numbers:

You must be registered for see images

Ninjas were already being healed on the field by the medics that had shit to do with Sakura (she is nowhere to be seen there) as an entire "Medic Corps" was healing people. Better pick up a dictionary as to what the term "corps" means. It would do you good:

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Oh yeah, where was I? Yes, Madara and Obito wiped out the headquarters as well, killing many there too:

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They also wiped out countless "allied Shinobi" that showed up to aid Naruto:

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And I haven't even touched upon the countless more killed by Kages in the scenes. Did you actually state that Sakura healed the "ENTIRE" alliance? How embarrassing!



Funny, because small chakra makes chakra control easier like Kakashi stated in part one:

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So, a tech that pretty much hinges on chakra control was learnt (still in a long period of three whole years), because her reserves are too tiny; and basically, her small reserves aided her in learning it? In short, her lack of high reserves associated with Uchiha became a good reason for her ability? Good to know.



So, I shouldn't talk of the same underlying reasons for two Shinobis deaths? This guy!



Based on what? Why did Sasuke need to finish the job? You know, two people with Sharingan decided that she actually needed to be put down? Makes so much sense.



Huh? It's a variation of her medical Ninjutsu. Like I stated in the previous post; lucky that her chakra was so small for better control.



Yup, just like I showed above; the entire alliance. Not the under-thousand or so leftovers of it! No, sir! Sakura healed 80,000 people. You heard it from Pasta!



Yup, a troll, indeed, which is better than being a Sakura or a Hinata wanker, when you just called "strength" a separate tech when the databook calls it nothing more than a spin upon her medic Ninjutsu. Her jutsu list is shit. Just accept it. She invented jack on her own. Your attempts are too comical, though. Too comical for words.

Where the hell have you been, M8?
 
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