[Discussion] How did Masked Madara gain control of the Akatsuki, and how did Konan know so much?

[MattTGF]

Note: Hopefully this is the right board. This happened some time ago... I was torn between posting here or somewhere else, because I do spread out this topic to recent events...

I've been wondering this for a while, and a heavily related thought just occurred because of it... but I'll get to that thought in a second... How do you all think Masked Madara gained control of the Akatsuki? Konan refuses to believe he spurred the creation of the Akatsuki, and gave Nagato the Rennegan.

Which leads me to my next thought... It relates to Madara becoming the true leader of the Akatsuki, as acknowledged by Konan, Nagato, Minato, and Itachi (Technically, Itachi never reveals that he knew this, but he knew Masked Madara better than most people).

At the end of chapter 508, Konan says, "I knew you would come. I've been waiting... To finish you off."

I'm shocked that this, to the best of my knowledge, has slipped under the radar, unnoticed... What's the significance of it? Konan says she is going to finish him off, and in order to do that, Masked Madara must have been severely weakened at some point. Therefore, I'm betting Masked Madara proved his leadership of the Akatsuki by fighting Nagato. With that in mind, another piece of evidence regarding this, is that she knows how long Masked Madara can stay invulnerable, and she knows exactly how his powers work. If she didn't, Masked Madara probably would have killed her in ten seconds or less. Point being, she had to learn all of his abilities by watching Masked Madara battle at some point, as there are no records to the best of my knowledge that neatly describe the limitations, and what of Masked Madara's power.

She could have meant, "I'm going to finish what the First Hokage failed to do," but it's hard to say, hence the reason I'm opening a discussion topic on this.

Konan claims Yahiko spurred the Akatsuki. Masked Madara claims he influenced Yahiko to spur the Akatsuki... but like I've been saying, when and how did he take control from Yahiko's successor, Nagato?

Surely Masked Madara did not just walk in and say, "I'm Madara Uchiha, I'm taking over. Step aside." There had to be more to it...

There is a spoiler regarding chapter 559 in the following paragraphs

Another thing has been bugging me concerning that too... If everyone is submitting to Masked Madara's will by just stating himself to be the one and only, Madara Uchiha, and if based on Edo Madara, he really did die, and is not who he says he is, than how has he managed to fool Konan, Nagato, Itachi, Minato and everyone else? Surely, he didn't just troll some of the greatest ninja of all time...

Also, related to that, jumping back further in time... At the Five Kage Conference, Onoki doesn't think a thing of Masked Madara's ability to use Time-Space Ninjustu. He was the only one at the conference that fought Madara in the past, and he just accepted the fact that Madara has that ability. So, with that, I think it may be possible to assume that the far younger version of Madara Uchiha, who has been revived can also use abilities similar to Masked Madara's.

 

[MyFistYourFace]

trolled

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[Blackie Chan]

who knows, all i can think about is when he revealed himself to kisame and he had long hair like madara and was controlling the mizukage, as far as im concerned madara has ablities to be dead and alive at the same time ha ha

 

[MattTGF]

who knows, all i can think about is when he revealed himself to kisame and he had long hair like madara and was controlling the mizukage, as far as im concerned madara has ablities to be dead and alive at the same time ha ha

Hmm... yeah. That brings up the concept that there is not a single Zetsu with long hair. Yet, a person who's entire or partial body is Zetsu has been seen with long hair before on multiple occasions, dressed similar to how Masked Madara has been dressing.

 

[MattTGF]

madara didnt gain control of akatsuki, he created it, didnt he

So he claims. Konan, however, an original member disagreed with Masked Madara's claim. Well... she disagrees in the sense that Yahiko is the person she saw create the Akatsuki. She is speechless when Masked Madara said he influenced Yahiko to create the Akatsuki.

Even so, even if Madara is the true founder of the Akatsuki, it still does not explain how he took control, when Konan did not see him as the oiriginal founder.

 

[Teacup22]

So he claims. Konan, however, an original member disagreed with Masked Madara's claim. Well... she disagrees in the sense that Yahiko is the person she saw create the Akatsuki. She is speechless when Masked Madara said he influenced Yahiko to create the Akatsuki.

Even so, even if Madara is the true founder of the Akatsuki, it still does not explain how he took control, when Konan did not see him as the oiriginal founder.

Well yea, guess we can assume that Yahiko did originally form the group, with Tobi pulling the strings. Just because Konan didn't see him as the original leader, doesn't mean he's lying. I believe Yahiko was in control while he was alive, but when he died/Nagato became leader, Tobi started influencing him, or even threaten(could have to do with the reason he even got Rinnegan, and obviously Tobi had the power to defeat people close to him, as we saw with him vs Konan). But as for the reason why/how he took control, we just have to wait for one of those flashbacks that Kishi is so used to using.

 

[MattTGF]

Well yea, guess we can assume that Yahiko did originally form the group, with Tobi pulling the strings. Just because Konan didn't see him as the original leader, doesn't mean he's lying. I believe Yahiko was in control while he was alive, but when he died/Nagato became leader, Tobi started influencing him, or even threaten(could have to do with the reason he even got Rinnegan, and obviously Tobi had the power to defeat people close to him, as we saw with him vs Konan). But as for the reason why/how he took control, we just have to wait for one of those flashbacks that Kishi is so used to using.

Yeah. Very true, especially since Konan would have lost nearly instantly if she didn't rig the battlefield. It could have been a threat, and perhaps he showed his power by killing several of the other Akatsuki members. When the Akatsuki appear in the manga, none of the original members remain except for Konan and Nagato.

But yeah... to truly get to the bottom of it, we'll probably have to wait for Kishi to reveal how, if he ever does. For now though, it's fun speculation...

 

[Sarutobi Sasuke]

Yeah. Very true, especially since Konan would have lost nearly instantly if she didn't rig the battlefield. It could have been a threat, and perhaps he showed his power by killing several of the other Akatsuki members. When the Akatsuki appear in the manga, none of the original members remain except for Konan and Nagato.

But yeah... to truly get to the bottom of it, we'll probably have to wait for Kishi to reveal how, if he ever does. For now though, it's fun speculation...

Tobi, or Masked Madara as you call him, must hold the record for lying in this manga. I prefer to take what ever he has said in the past with a whole lot of salt especially when its a case of his word against someone else's. Like in Konan's case, for example.

Could it be possible that Nagato at some point made contact with the real Madara. Real Madara dies without anyone, besides Tobi, knowing. Tobi steps into Madara's shoes as if nothing happened and joins Akatsuki before Yahiko dies. When Yahiko dies, Tobi takes leader ship because Nagato was still very introverted and shy and he just lost his mobility in his fight against Danzo and Hanzo.

Anyway nice thread +rep

 

[Erzo]

shes a mind reader.
Thats why.

 

[MattTGF]

Tobi, or Masked Madara as you call him, must hold the record for lying in this manga. I prefer to take what ever he has said in the past with a whole lot of salt especially when its a case of his word against someone else's. Like in Konan's case, for example.

Could it be possible that Nagato at some point made contact with the real Madara. Real Madara dies without anyone, besides Tobi, knowing. Tobi steps into Madara's shoes as if nothing happened and joins Akatsuki before Yahiko dies. When Yahiko dies, Tobi takes leader ship because Nagato was still very introverted and shy and he just lost his mobility in his fight against Danzo and Hanzo.

Anyway nice thread +rep

Thanks! And yeah, Masked Madara has lied, but how many of his statements are lies? The only one I can think of that we can prove to be a lie is when he denied being involved in the Nine-Tails attack 16 years ago.

It's certainly possible that Masked Madara could have stepped in for Madara without anyone noticing, because Masked Madara, from what we've seen of his face is an exact replica of Madara's facial features.

While it may be true that Masked Madara could have taken control of the Akatsuki because of Nagato's lack of mobility, it wouldn't make sense in the sense of him being the leader just because Nagato is shy. Why? Masked Madara kept his presence as leader a secret. Only two, besides Zetsu admit to knowing Masked Madara as the leader, Konan and Nagato. Itachi only in a theoretical sense, since he never comes out and accepts or states it.

 

[IzzSmo]

Madara claims to have encouraged Yahiko to found akatsuki. After he died, Nagato took control, being given orders from Madara secretly. Konan knew because she was Nagato's right hang woMan

 

[Sarutobi Sasuke]

Thanks! And yeah, Masked Madara has lied, but how many of his statements are lies? The only one I can think of that we can prove to be a lie is when he denied being involved in the Nine-Tails attack 16 years ago.

I cant remember all Tobi's lies of by heart but these are the ones that I can think of where he definitely lied:
1. The Kyuubi incident. As youve already pointed out.
2. Before he told his story to Sasuke he said that it is a long story but everything is the truth. We know everything in that story was not the truth.
3. He lied to Sasuke about giving him a bijuu for his help. Its either that or he lied about reassembling the Juubi and becoming its jinchuuriki.
4. He must have lied to Nagato about how the bijuu's are to be used to attain peace. Because he and Nagato were not on the same page on that subject.
5. He lied about being Madara. He could be a clone or something but he is not Madara(and he knows it) as we've just seen in the latest chapter.
6. Every other thing he said about Madara as if he himself was Madara were also lies. Like being born with exceptional chakra and fighting Hashirama etc.

Here's some probable lies:
4. He says Izuna gave his eyes to Madara. Itachi said it was taken.
5. He told Kabuto that he can have Sasuke after the war but we know how Tobi plans to conclude this war. Infinite Tsukuyomi.

It's certainly possible that Masked Madara could have stepped in for Madara without anyone noticing, because Masked Madara, from what we've seen of his face is an exact replica of Madara's facial features.

I wont go so far as to say that their face's are exact replica's. But Tobi might be a more aged version of Madara. Seeing that Madara's been dead since Nagato was still a "brat".

While it may be true that Masked Madara could have taken control of the Akatsuki because of Nagato's lack of mobility, it wouldn't make sense in the sense of him being the leader just because Nagato is shy. Why? Masked Madara kept his presence as leader a secret. Only two, besides Zetsu admit to knowing Masked Madara as the leader, Konan and Nagato. Itachi only in a theoretical sense, since he never comes out and accepts or states it.

Well...you see, I'm also introverted and shy so I can relate to those type of leadership situations. And I can tell you from personal experience that introversion and shyness are big obstacles to overcome when it comes to taking charge. That is, taking leadership.

 

[Spartan117]

So far as I can remember. Minato always refered tobi as the masked man. He asked him are you madara uchiha? Thats as far as it. Jiraya also doubted madara being behind it.

 

[laxus]

tobi has been around for some time to even be able to have hashirama dna and he also has the uchiha too so he may actually be a zetsu clone of madara and has planned this from the fight of the 1st hokage.The thing is tobi seemed as if he didn't want madara to be discovered and it really looked like he was planning on not bringing madara back alive or just not following madara orders completely after madara died if they were partners.

tobi seemed that he literally accepted himself to be madara but if he's a zetsu clone he probably can since he has his body to his chakra signature

tobi doesn't seem to have madara abilites besides the fire jutsu's because everyone he fought he goes wiht round about tatics and spce time and if you remember the time minato says so this masked man space time is better than the 2nd hokage's so madara probably did not have space time.