Hokage Kakashi vs Raikage Darui!

[V h o]

My disposition makes me say, Darui low diff U_U

 

[Apêx1]

baseless. He was specific on what and exactly what is effected by the jutsu. Please stop adding your extra crap and misinterpretation to try justify your cause.
it's only 1 statement. He mentioned 4 drawbacks. Speed isn't one of them. END of discussion.

That's an appeal to ignorance. Quite frankly, I do not care if you want to appeal to ignorance, because at the end of the day strength and speed do go hand in hand. If Kisame is at 21% strength then his ability to evade a punch when he has no base to move on is entirely revolving around his bodily strength. If he is running then his ability to move is entirely based on him exerting force against the ground. So your point is moot. Itachi did not mention Kisame's punching power would decrease, doesn't mean it didn't since his strength did too.

now you're overwanking Lariat. Sasuke got hit by v1 and only passed out, and he is by no means a durability champ, not to mention still healing from injuries prior to the whole fight.
Heck kakashi and guy blocked v2 tail swipes with no difficulty either. Then there's samehada weaking the attack the moment killer b came in close proximity to it.

No, I'm not. Sasuke got hit by v1 whose destructive power is this [

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]. His

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, so your downplay of manga facts is laughable. v2 Bee is far faster than v1, since v1 was reacted to by Kisame and v2 was not. v1 has chakra to attack whereas v2's strength is enhanced by a massive skull which sent someone of the likes of Kisame flying away with

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. This is in fact the Kisame that

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punches from 7th gate Gai after surviving

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. So don't give me this bullshit of every intricate detail was mentioned, when his durability clear did go down at 21%, since 7th Gate Gai>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>6th Gate Gai. v2 swipes are nothing in comparison to Bee's lariat. They are featless and aren't as concentrated as are Bee's attacks. And Bee did full dmage with v2, so the point is moot. his reversion occurred after he hit Kisame, since v2 was shown to throw after Kisame.

On the flip side guy's punches are so fast and powerful that it causes the air around his hands to turn to fire. Fireballs that are strong enough to take out a water shark despite water sharks having the elemental advantage. Kisame's body took a flurry of these hits at point blank range with absolutely 0 way to weaken the blow or heal via samehada.

That's because it was not chakra based fire, it was real fire. We have already seen that real 'elements' are massively superior to chakra elements. However, it does not mean in any way his punches are super powerful. They are merely super fast. And Kisame had practically lost before the Morning Peacock based on his team's words [

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]. And either way, fire does not possess the energy per area of a v1 lariat or a v2 lariat, nor a punch from 7th Gated Gai,let alone a Hirudora. So stop this nonsense.

It should be extremely clear in this case:
asakujaku> any form of Lariat. When it comes to kisame.
So so there goes your inferior durability argument.

touching the ground has nothing to do with shunshin.

No, it's not. Morning Peacock didn't even burn his skin. Kisame fell right into the water, so how massive damage was inflicted is beyond me.
And Hirudora>>>>>>>>>>Morning Peacock

Shunahin:Body Flicker Technique is a high-speed movement technique, allowing a ninja to move short to long distances at an almost untraceable speed.[2] To an observer, it appears as if the user has teleported. A puff of smoke is occasionally used to disguise the user's movements. It is accomplished by using chakra to temporarily vitalise the body and move at extreme speeds. The amount of chakra required depends on the overall distance and elevation between the user and the intended destination.
like I been saying for the longest. Strength and speed don't correlate, with shunshin the body(not just the feet) becomes faster. It's not about releasing chakra to the floor either. So idk why you're saying it's irrelevant cuz they're in mid air. Going by your logic the onnoki/raikage combo would be counter productive since he's in mid air all the time.

But I have yet to ever see a Shunshin being used in mid-air, since it's always been used from ground level, meaning the legs are the initiators and the body merely keeps up with the speed by kinetic linking. Until you show me Shunshin in mid-air, there's no point in debating this. Not to mention Shunshin cannot be used instantly, it requires chakra build up,

you should have conceded based on itachi's statement. Instead of making crap up.

His argument regarded Shunshin, which is irrelevant. No reason for me to concede on something irrelevant.

you said "body strength effects speed. With 30% of his strength he can only move 30 as fast. "

Sakura is by no means strong or fast yet through shunshin and her chakra enhanced punches she can be both. Hence why bodily strength dosen't correlate or have anything to do with speed.
Through her yin seal she shown the strength feats superior to tsunade despite tsunade having the better leinage and superior chakra reservations. Proving that even though her reserves are inferior (the 30% kisame if you will) it dosen't effect the ability and power of the techniques. That craps on your. "With 30% the attacks/jutsu would be weaker" argument.

Which is true, yet Itachi didn't denote that=not intricate=whole point.

And my god you are stupid. Sakura has insane chakra control, nothing more nothing less. I showed you the damn page of Kakashi saying that lmao. And bodily strength does correlate, because Sakura does not use Shunshin, and has never shown us her Shunshin.
And what? Chakra is not the decisive factor of strength. But halving your original chakra would reduce all of your capabilities by half. Same applies with Suiton Bunshins, you give them 10% chakra and all their capabilities are reduced to 10% of yours. So no, it doesn't crap on anything, because those people have trained their strength/speed with their original chakra levels, not their half amounts. And do note, both Sakura and Tsunade summon only 5% of Katsuyu, and Tsunade is just as strong as Sakura, but lacks her war-arc feats (which she should be able to replicate).

what does being in mid air have to do with anything?

Because Kisame was in mid-air when Gai hit him, and using Shunshin is mid-air is impossible till you prove it is.

why?

Addressed.

no. U don't get it. U said

"since he doesn't have the strength to move his entire body and evade in time"

We already know that that's not true since shunshin invigorates the whole body to move at gosh speeds. But even with it(had he used it or not) he still couldn't even finish his own thoughts b4 getting kicked in the face. Meaning he couldn't react. Where as he reacted easily to killer bee's Lariats.

No, because Shunshin is not often used by Shinobi, has never been used by Kisame, and requires amazing chakra control to use instantly (like Sakura). Shunshin can also not be used in midair since it initiates from the feet, so stop being a dumbfûck. And he reacted to Killer Bee's lariats by swinging his sword, not by moving. Don't know where he ever used Shunshin lmao, but you clearly have some massive misconceptions regarding it.

we see them hitting the tailed beasts :|
He Clearly wasn't. If Kakashi was in front of guy he wouldn't have gotten smacked by the tailed beast kakashi was fighting.

Dude, stop being so idiotic. Keep things in context instead of being a straw man. I clearly said right after that, that we don't know where the Bijuu's they hit where in relation to each other's, so saying they moved the same distance is fallacious. And Kakashi and Gai got smacked after that.

[/QUOTE] over exited about what? Proving u wrong?[/QUOTE]

Deluded as usual.

When Itachi said "strength" is proportional to the amount of chakra given to the sacrifice, it could be interpreted as their strength being lowered because their strongest jutsu require more than 30% of their chakra to use effectively. An example would be Itachi's MS, which he can't use via Shoten. If they were only at 30% strength, then all their moves should be cut down to that level, yet DB and Kakashi state that Shoten Itachi's Fireball Jutsu=Normal Fireball Jutsu.

Your point being?.. Fact remains that Kisame's durability was lowered, hence his speed would be too since that is implying his whole bodily strength was reduced.

 

[KidGamer65]

Your point being?.. Fact remains that Kisame's durability was lowered, hence his speed would be too since that is implying his whole bodily strength was reduced.

Which is based on what exactly? Kisame didn't take anywhere near the full brunt of Hirudora, unless you want to say that he's anywhere near as durable as a V3 Susanoo, which he clearly isn't. So using that as a durability feat to say that his durability changed, obviously isn't going to fly. V2 Lariat? Maybe it's stronger than Asa Kujaku, but even if it is, he didn't take a direct hit. He had Samehada to absorb B's cloak and he had it as a physical shield, so he took nowhere near the full brunt of that lariat. So those jutsu being stronger are irrelevant.

Everything implies that their abilities stayed the same, but they could only use less of them, and weaker ones due to less chakra. Itachi's Katon implies this, so does the DB. Your argument for his durability being lowered is flimsy at best.

No, it's not. Morning Peacock didn't even burn his skin. Kisame fell right into the water, so how massive damage was inflicted is beyond me.

Are we forgetting that Asa Kujaku is a barrage of flaming punches? Getting hit is enough to do massive damage, burning is only a bonus.

We have already seen that real 'elements' are massively superior to chakra elements. However, it does not mean in any way his punches are super powerful. They are merely super fast.

Really now? Gai's already a physical monster when using the Eighth Gate. The faster the punch, the more force behind the punch. So yes, that means his punches will be super powerful. In comparison to normal.

nd Kisame had practically lost before the Morning Peacock based on his team's words

Lol, your point? I hope you aren't implying he was defeated after that kick, considering Lee saw the pose for Asa Kujaku, and he is the one who said "It's Over"..which is obviously because of Asa Kujaku.

 

[Apêx1]

Which is based on what exactly? Kisame didn't take anywhere near the full brunt of Hirudora, unless you want to say that he's anywhere near as durable as a V3 Susanoo, which he clearly isn't. So using that as a durability feat to say that his durability changed, obviously isn't going to fly. V2 Lariat? Maybe it's stronger than Asa Kujaku, but even if it is, he didn't take a direct hit. He had Samehada to absorb B's cloak and he had it as a physical shield, so he took nowhere near the full brunt of that lariat. So those jutsu being stronger are irrelevant.

What the hell? Hirudora's impact was reduced by Kisame's Shark Bullet is the most likely option. But we still saw the explosion, and we still saw it right in front of Kisame while he had on way to run, so he clearly was in the epicentre of the explosion. To be honest I really don't care how much surviving Hirudora would scale him, because at the end of the day he survived Hirudora which is massively superior to Morning Peacock. Period. And Gai still punched him right in the gut with 7th gate and Kisame did not get knocked out. Clearly, something of speeds on such a level is far above mere fire created from his punches in 6th Gate (which killed him). Do note, v2 Lariat hit him regardless, and Bee's strength was transferred regardless. Samehada is irrelevant since Bee still smashed something as solid as it into Kisame and made him lose half his chest. Gai's kick which should be as strong, if not stronger than his punches failed to blow open any part of 30% Kisame yet killed him. 7Th Gate Gai's punch failed to break any bone or open up 100% Kisame yet only made him cough.

Everything implies that their abilities stayed the same, but they could only use less of them, and weaker ones due to less chakra. Itachi's Katon implies this, so does the DB. Your argument for his durability being lowered is flimsy at best.

Lol, not at all. And my argument stands till you can disprove his durability feats vs 7th Gate Gai, both feats of which are impossible to disprove regardless of your opinion.

Are we forgetting that Asa Kujaku is a barrage of flaming punches? Getting hit is enough to do massive damage, burning is only a bonus.

Barrage of flaming punches or not, they are weaker than the original punch and they are weaker than v2 Bee's lariat, Gai's punch and Gai's Hirudora.

Really now? Gai's already a physical monster when using the Eighth Gate. The faster the punch, the more force behind the punch. So yes, that means his punches will be super powerful. In comparison to normal.

Yes, my point was that speed is not interchangeable with power. V2 Lariat is slower than 6G Gai's punch yet it does more damage. And the entire comparison is flawed in the first place since Kisame not evading 6G Gai's striking speed does not mean he wouldn't evade 6G Gai's movement speed, given he had already swung at him with his 30% strength and missed. SO I don't understand what's being debated in the first place, because Ay's v1 speed is obviously above Gai's 6G speed, but Ay's v2 speed is still slower than Gai's striking speed.

Lol, your point? I hope you aren't implying he was defeated after that kick, considering Lee saw the pose for Asa Kujaku, and he is the one who said "It's Over"..which is obviously because of Asa Kujaku.

Ok.

 

[KidGamer65]

What the hell? Hirudora's impact was reduced by Kisame's Shark Bullet is the most likely option. But we still saw the explosion, and we still saw it right in front of Kisame while he had on way to run, so he clearly was in the epicentre of the explosion.

Lol, what the hell? If something is stopping him from receiving the full brunt of the attack (GSB, and the water surrounding them) then it means just about shit if he was right in front of the explosion.

To be honest I really don't care how much surviving Hirudora would scale him, because at the end of the day he survived Hirudora which is massively superior to Morning Peacock. Period.

Lol, I really hope you aren't serious with this nonsense. That's a ridiculous way to argue. Scale Kisame up to whatever the hell you want to prove your argument, even though it's clear to a light reader of this manga that V3 Susanoo>>>Kisame in durability.

-V3 Susanoo would tank Lariat, Kisame couldn't even do so after using Samehada as a shield.

-That one guy, Aoba I think, pierced Kisame with needles, yet he's as durable as V3 Susanoo?

-B was damaging him with the Raiton Blades, yet he's as durable as V3 Susanoo?

Lol.

He survived Hirudora, which he didn't take the full brunt of. That alone destroys any comparisons you are making, unless you have proof that the damage he took>>>Asa Kujaku, which you obviously don't. There's also the fact that Gai never shot to kill.

And Gai still punched him right in the gut with 7th gate and Kisame did not get knocked out.

Irrelevant. 1 punch from the 7G Gai, who isn't even trying to kill him<<<<<<Asa Kujaku from 6G Gai.

Clearly, something of speeds on such a level is far above mere fire created from his punches in 6th Gate (which killed him)

.
Uh, yeah, if it was the same amount of punches, but it's not. So first we have "Kisame is as durable as V3 Susanoo" oh wait my bad, more durable according to your argument, and now you are saying 1 punch from 7G Gai w/o the intent to kill>>>flurry of flaming punches from 6G Gai. You mention speed, but you ignore the fact that Gai's fists were moving so fast that they were flaming. That punch he used against Kisame had no special attribute that'd make it's speed something notable. 8G Gai's punches make an air cannon, Asa Kujaku causes his fists to catch on fire.

When you have proof that this one punch from 7G Gai>>Asa Kujaku, then we can talk.

Do note, v2 Lariat hit him regardless, and Bee's strength was transferred regardless. Samehada is irrelevant since Bee still smashed something as solid as it into Kisame and made him lose half his chest.

Lol, you just love ignoring important details don't you? He didn't take a direct hit, he had a shield, meaning he did not take the full brunt of the attack. It's really that simple. Samehada couldn't protect him from all of the attack, doesn't change the fact it protected him from some of it. A weakened V2 Lariat blew out his chest.

Gai's kick which should be as strong, if not stronger than his punches failed to blow open any part of 30% Kisame yet killed him.

Why would Gai's kick be stronger than Asa Kujaku? Not to mention Lariat=/=Gai's punches. It not blowing his body open doesn't mean that it's automatically weaker. Shinsuusenju would crush someone, not blow their body open, doesn't mean that it's weaker than Lariat.

7Th Gate Gai's punch failed to break any bone or open up 100% Kisame yet only made him cough.

Irrelevant since:

Asa Kujaku>>>>>>>>1 punch from 7G Gai.

Lol, not at all. And my argument stands till you can disprove his durability feats vs 7th Gate Gai, both feats of which are impossible to disprove regardless of your opinion.

There is barely anything to disprove. You say Hirudora>>Asa Kujaku, and he tanked Hirudora, so his durability was lessened, even though he didn't take the full brunt of Hirudora, so what the hell are you even comparing? Hirudora>Asa Kujaku means nothing if Kisame didn't take all the attack's power.

You also say V2 Lariat>Asa Kujaku, based on the flimsy reasoning of it not blowing his chest open, despite the two being completely different types of attacks (Only reason that effect is there is because of B's Bijuu Chakra and his skeleton, a lariat from him just using his body won't blow someone's chest off. v1 Lariat blew off Sasuke's chest, I hope you aren't saying that v1 Lariat>>Asa Kujaku.

On the other hand, I have statements, from DB and Manga stating that Shoten Itachi's Fireball Jutsu=Regular Itachi's fireball Jutsu. If strength was cut back 30% like you say it was, then there would be no reason why his Fireball Jutsu would be equal. That means that the strength of the jutsu are the same, the only issue, and I mean the only issue is that less chakra, means weaker jutsu, thus overall weaker. Your argument barely stands even I don't include this, when I do include this concrete evidence, it trumps your flimsy comparisons.

Barrage of flaming punches or not, they are weaker than the original punch and they are weaker than v2 Bee's lariat, Gai's punch and Gai's Hirudora.

And why in the world would a barrage of flaming punches be weaker than one punch? Lol. Are you even listening to yourself? The rest is irrelevant for reasons already explained.

Yes, my point was that speed is not interchangeable with power.

More speed behind a punch means more power. That is basic physics. If you hit a wall with your fist moving 2 mph, it will do less damage than it would moving 30 mph.

V2 Lariat is slower than 6G Gai's punch yet it does more damage.

Clearly not taking into account that B has more power behind his attack to begin with, he doesn't need a boost in speed to match something on the level of Asa Kujaku. The moment you used another jutsu for the comparison was where it failed. If B's lariat moved faster, it'd be stronger. Ay matches B's v1 Lariat with his speed, and B has the raw power due to his Bijuu.

And the entire comparison is flawed in the first place since Kisame not evading 6G Gai's striking speed does not mean he wouldn't evade 6G Gai's movement speed, given he had already swung at him with his 30% strength and missed. SO I don't understand what's being debated in the first place, because Ay's v1 speed is obviously above Gai's 6G speed, but Ay's v2 speed is still slower than Gai's striking speed.[/U]

I'm not understanding what this has to do with what I said.

 

[Icelerate]

Why did this thread reach so many pages when neither Hokage Kakashi nor Raikage Darui have any feats?

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Why did this thread reach so many pages when neither Hokage Kakashi nor Raikage Darui have any feats?

Cuz ppl started claiming bs.

5 pages and nobody actually brought up techniques.