Hokage Kakashi vs Raikage Darui!

[BenjerminGaye]

Obvious? Where did Ay state hes slowing down his speed for Darui? He had no reason to slow down. He had them right where he wanted him in the Genjutsu and tried to kill them. Thats not even Ays character either. Ay doesn't slow down, when he comes he comes with overwhelming menace. The only time he ever slowed down was to match his power with Kid Bee. I have no reason to believe he held back besides not using V2 from PIS.

They're attacking in conjunction with each other. Naturally he'd slow down.
And yes it's well within ay's character since he Sand bagged his Lariat for bee all the way up until the 4th war.
He didn't even use v2 as you clearly pointed out.
Saying its not in character for him to slow down then saying its pis for him not to use v2 just destroys any type of argument you had.


And on the flip side it's not in character for guy to hold back. Youth at full power.

 

[Apêx1]

Strength is not proportional to speed. Sakura choji tsunade etc are clear examples of this. So unless you have proof of him saying his speed and reaction were inferior your claims that they were go out the window.

That second part. Is completely illogical, and it goes against what you were originally saying.

My god. Strength is not punchin power, that's something my 8 year old brother can understand. Sakura's power comes from chakra enhancement on her fist. Choji's power comes from massive size which in turn increases his weight. However, we are talking about someone whose weight remains unchanged but his bodily strength goes down by 30%. That means his muscles capability of moving his hand is put down by 30%. It's pretty simple. Speed goes hand in hand with strength, so it does not explicitly need to be stated.

How so? Initially, you said Gai's speed and Kakashi's speed are equivalent.

Yeah and Kakashi is as fast as 6th gate guy

This became the whole basis for you two's debate. However, we can see Kakashi and Gai reaching the same location at the same time [

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] when Gai was not in gates. Gai

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and clearly outspeeds Kakashi meaning he's far faster at that point. Not to mention, he's creating

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around himself while moving at such high speeds.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

My god. Strength is not punchin power, that's something my 8 year old brother can understand. Sakura's power comes from chakra enhancement on her fist. Choji's power comes from massive size which in turn increases his weight. However, we are talking about someone whose weight remains unchanged but his bodily strength goes down by 30%. That means his muscles capability of moving his hand is put down by 30%.

No it dosen't itachi would have out right said that. He was very specific in exactly what was effected(strength, chakra, and jutsu capabilities). Speed and a reaction rate isn't it.

It's pretty simple. Speed goes hand in hand with strength, so it does not explicitly need to be stated.

That was false since the day shunshin was introduced. Hence me bringing up sakura and choji.

How so? Initially, you said Gai's speed and Kakashi's speed are equivalent.

I said it sarcastically in response to guru Laghima claiming ay was equal in speed vs darui.

This became the whole basis for you two's debate. However, we can see Kakashi and Gai reaching the same location at the same time [

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] when Gai was not in gates.

Guy was in gates before any attacks landed. When Kakashi pulled out raikiri guy was in the 6th gate.

Gai

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and clearly outspeeds Kakashi meaning he's far faster at that point.

false since both arrived and attacked at the same time.

Not to mention, he's creating

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around himself while moving at such high speeds.

that's his aura. Not shockwaves. The only time guy produces shockwaves with his attacks is seventh gate and up.

 

[Apêx1]

No it dosen't itachi would have out right said that. He was very specific in exactly what was effected(strength, chakra, and jutsu capabilities). Speed and a reaction rate isn't it.

What the hell? I don't care how you interpret scans, Itachi is not going to point out every intricate detail for someone who doesn't understand that bodily strength and speed goes hand in hand. And I never said reaction rate goes up, so stop being a straw man.

That was false since the day shunshin was introduced. Hence me bringing up sakura and choji.

Shunshin is chakra based, as is chakra enhanced punches. It's really that simiple, I don't see why you're struggling so badly to understand such simple concepts. You move by exerting force against the ground and in turn the ground exerting equal force back at you. If that force is 30% of what it used to be, than your moving 30% slower. Jesus christ.

I said it sarcastically in response to guru Laghima claiming ay was equal in speed vs darui.

Ok.

Guy was in gates before any attacks landed. When Kakashi pulled out raikiri guy was in the 6th gate.

Irrelevant to what I just said. Gai was not in 6th Gate in the scan I showed, toherwise he would not have had to power up.

False since both arrived and attacked at the same time.

What? If he's as fast as Kakashi outside of the 6th Gate, then he's faster with the 6th gate. Kakashi is also clearly lagging behind Gai. They both hit their first opponent at times we don't see. But when they move on to the second opponent we can clearly see Gai hits his opponent first, and his opponent is even further than the one Kakashi is fighting.

That's his aura. Not shockwaves. The only time guy produces shockwaves with his attacks is seventh gate and up.

Clearly not his aura since his aura is far smaller than that. Although it's irrelevant, since the other points are more significant.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

What the hell? I don't care how you interpret scans, Itachi is not going to point out every intricate detail for someone who doesn't understand that bodily strength and speed goes hand in hand. And I never said reaction rate goes up, so stop being a straw man.

If he's not gonna point out every intricate detail then why the fck is he pointing out every intricate detail? He mentioned the bodies being the same.
He mentioned the strength being inferior.
He mentioned the limited jutsu capabilities.

Yet he's not gonna mention different speeds or durability for example? Get the fck outta here with your assumptions.

Shunshin is chakra based, as is chakra enhanced punches. It's really that simiple, I don't see why you're struggling so badly to understand such simple concepts. You move by exerting force against the ground and in turn the ground exerting equal force back at you. If that force is 30% of what it used to be, than your moving 30% slower. Jesus christ.

This guy. Unless you're suggesting shunshin takes up over 30% of his chakra to achive you have no point. The quantity changed. Not the quality. It's the exact reason why I brought up sakura, and you don't even realize it.

Irrelevant to what I just said. Gai was not in 6th Gate in the scan I showed, toherwise he would not have had to power up.

Guy was in sixth gate the moment he started moving.

What? If he's as fast as Kakashi outside of the 6th Gate, then he's faster with the 6th gate.

the scan dosen't prove that. When we see them moving guy is in the sixth gate.

Kakashi is also clearly lagging behind Gai. They both hit their first opponent at times we don't see. But when they move on to the second opponent we can clearly see Gai hits his opponent first, and his opponent is even further than the one Kakashi is fighting.

assumptions based on bad perspective. Guy's opponent could have been closer to him and Kakashi than kakashi's opponent.

Clearly not his aura since his aura is far smaller than that.

false but whatever.

Although it's irrelevant, since the other points are more significant.

you have no other points.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Kakashi should win this.

Even though Hokage Kakashi is the weakest version of Kakashi against the strongest version of Darui. ​

 

[madvictory]

A young version of Kakashi with 3T Sharingan got owned by Zabuza.
Now, we have an old version with far less stamina and NO Sharingan whatsoever, fighting one of the men who defeated incredibly powerful Edos, just better.

So Raikage > Hokage in this case.

 

[Apêx1]

If he's not gonna point out every intricate detail then why the fck is he pointing out every intricate detail? He mentioned the bodies being the same.
He mentioned the strength being inferior.
He mentioned the limited jutsu capabilities.

The bold.. my god. He mentioned the two general categories of bodily strength (capabilities) and chakra, he did not mention every intricate detail.

Yet he's not gonna mention different speeds or durability for example? Get the fck outta here with your assumptions.

No assumptions. Durability is obviously different. How can any sane person suggest otherwise when Kisame's body was crushed by 6th Gate Gai's kick but didn't die to v2 Bee's blitz. When Kisame's strength is 7.5% of its natural strength, its obviously far more vulnerable to offensive attacks. Kakashi implied that Itachi's Katon was far weaker than usual, meaning his chakra potency went down. Was it mentioned that chakra potency was affected? No; hence my poiny. Speed is obviously the same, seeing how your speed is affected by the amount of force you exert to move your body.

This guy. Unless you're suggesting shunshin takes up over 30% of his chakra to achive you have no point. The quantity changed. Not the quality. It's the exact reason why I brought up sakura, and you don't even realize it.

You cannot be this dense. Kisame could not use shunshin while in mid-air [

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]. And the quality did change as shown with Itachi. Sakura is irrelevant. And given your lack of knowledge on the manga, this is how chakra works; Making water clones splits your chakra in half. Kisame made 3 water clones [

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]. That means 30%/4 chakra presences= Kisame was at 7.5% chakra. So his shunshin would be affected because his ability to utilise jutsu is limited. His speed is massively reduced, and his ability to manoeuvre his body while in mid-air is also affected, since he doesn't have the strength to move his entire body and evade in time. My god.

Guy was in sixth gate the moment he started moving.

If you are talking about when they were confronting the Bijuu then I agree, if you are talking about when they were about to Obito, then you are once again; wrong.

the scan dosen't prove that. When we see them moving guy is in the sixth gate.
assumptions based on bad perspective. Guy's opponent could have been closer to him and Kakashi than kakashi's opponent.

But we don't see them moving after Gai opens the 6th Gate; again.
Wot? Bad perspective is when you compare two people at differing angles. We had the posterior perspective on both Gai and Kakashi, were Gai was behind Kakashi in distance and in a y axis, so your point is moot.

false but whatever.
you have no other points.

Lol.

 

[DHOH]

There's a reason why Dauri is the new Raikage.. This guy is highly underrated if people think a sharinganless kakashi have a chance.

 

[KidGamer65]

@Apex: Water Clones take up

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of your chakra, not 1/2, and Kakashi implied the exact opposite of what you claim. He stated that the Fire Jutsu Clone Itachi used was the

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thing. That supports quality not changing, only quantity.

Shapeshifting* Technique (象転の術, Shouten no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, All ranges
User: Pain

Transferring one's chakra to a sacrifice and possessing them
As long as they stay alive, they'll play the part of a strong person!!

Pain allocates chakra from an "Akatsuki" member to a target person, allowing them to fight via an elaborate "copy". The power of the copy is in proportion to the volume of allocated chakra. The original's abilities are also available...!! However, once the chakra runs out, the technique is cancelled and the copy dies. As it even uses up the target's chakra, this is an incredibly brutal technique.

↓The one who performs the technique and decides how much chakra is allocated is Pain...
[picture of Pain]

[picture of Kisame's clone, holding the Samehada]
→The "Shapeshifting Technique" also imitates the weapons and tools held by the original person, allowing the copy to fight with them...!!

For a short time a part of "Akatsuki"!!

[picture of Itachi's clone]
←The appearance of the person on whom the "Shapeshifting Technique" is performed is 100% identical to the original person.

[picture of Itachi's clone performing the Great Fireball Technique]
←Of course, the techniques used by the copy are the same as those of the original person. Even the pride of the "Uchiha clan," the "Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique"**, can be flawlessly reproduced!!

*The kanji literally mean "shape," "imitation" and "shift," "revolve" respectively. "Shapeshifting" is a perfect translation for these kanji, but "shouten" isn't the word normally used as the Japanese translation for "shapeshifting," which would be "henshin" (変身).
**Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique (火遁・豪火球の術, Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu).

There's also the DB.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

The bold.. my god. He mentioned the two general categories of bodily strength (capabilities) and chakra, he did not mention every intricate detail.

Actually he mentioned 4. He said the bodies are the same.
He saisaid the amount of chakra it has is different.
He said the amount of jutsu it can use is limited.
He said it has inferior strength. That's pretty intricate to me.

No assumptions.

pure assumtions.

Durability is obviously different. How can any sane person suggest otherwise when Kisame's body was crushed by 6th Gate Gai's kick but didn't die to v2 Bee's blitz.

his body was severely damaged by both attacks. But for killer be he got 8 tails of chakra to restore himself. Where as he didn't get shit from guy.

When Kisame's strength is 7.5% of its natural strength, its obviously far more vulnerable to offensive attacks.

please provide proof of that percent.

Kakashi implied that Itachi's Katon was far weaker than usual, meaning his chakra potency went down.

Kakashi implied the opposite.

Was it mentioned that chakra potency was affected? No; hence my poiny. Speed is obviously the same, seeing how your speed is affected by the amount of force you exert to move your body.

Like I already said. This was false since the day shunshin was introduced.

You cannot be this dense. Kisame could not use shunshin while in mid-air [

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]. And the quality did change as shown with Itachi.

When did itachi show that? When did he even say that?

Sakura is irrelevant. And given your lack of knowledge on the manga, this is how chakra works;

the only reason you're saying she's irrelevant is because her existence shits on your argument and you can't provide a proper counter.

Making water clones splits your chakra in half. Kisame made 3 water clones [

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]. That means 30%/4 chakra presences= Kisame was at 7.5% chakra.

water clones use 10 % of your chakra. So its more like he was at 21%.

So his shunshin would be affected because his ability to utilise jutsu is limited.

false. Shunshin's chakra cost is based on the the distance and elevation. And like I said b4 unless you think it costs 24% of kisame's chakra to use a shunshin. U have no argument. Kakashi already explained that the only time jutsu's fail is when the user tries it without the proper chakra requirements (sasuke trying a 3rd chidori despite limit being 2)

His speed is massively reduced,

already debunked.

and his ability to manoeuvre his body while in mid-air is also affected, since he doesn't have the strength to move his entire body and evade in time.

Without clones or flight evading properly in mid air is nigh impossible. Not even kabuto who has sage mode was able to evade properly.

My god.

Don't call on him when your arguments are shit.

If you are talking about when they were confronting the Bijuu then I agree, if you are talking about when they were about to Obito, then you are once again; wrong.

whatever.

But we don't see them moving after Gai opens the 6th Gate; again.

we do. How else are they landing hits on the tailed beasts?

Wot? Bad perspective is when you compare two people at differing angles. We had the posterior perspective on both Gai and Kakashi, were Gai was behind Kakashi

that's impossible to tell from an angle coming from behind naruto.

in distance and in a y axis, so your point is moot.

read above.

Lol.

right back at ya.


Thanks KG.

 

[Apêx1]

Actually he mentioned 4. He said the bodies are the same.
He saisaid the amount of chakra it has is different.
He said the amount of jutsu it can use is limited.
He said it has inferior strength. That's pretty intricate to me.

Yes, but at that particular moment he mentioned strength and jutsu, which are the component parts to the rest of the things speed and types of ninjutsu. So, intricate if you take into account everything he said, but not intricate when you look at that statement in particular.

No assumptions.pure assumtions.
his body was severely damaged by both attacks. But for killer be he got 8 tails of chakra to restore himself. Where as he didn't get shit from guy.

please provide proof of that percent.
Kakashi implied the opposite.
Like I already said. This was false since the day shunshin was introduced.

Yes, but in one the person died and in the other he was still speaking. That's a huge difference, not to mention v2 strength, speed and hardness>>>>>>>>>>>>6th Gate Gai.

And KG is right, it's 10%, meaning the real one is 21% chakra.
And what the hell? Shunshin is still irrelevant to this discussion, because neither Kisame nor Gai were touching the ground. So you have yet to elaborate on your shunshin point, because right now it's not helping your argument at all.

When did itachi show that? When did he even say that?

Have already conceded that per KG's post.

the only reason you're saying she's irrelevant is because her existence shits on your argument and you can't provide a proper counter.

How does her existence shit on my post? You stated her name and you have yet to tell me how she is doing anything against my argument. I can say Hinata as a reply to a wallie, doesn't mean I have developed an argument. Same with you, you say names and then fail to give any decent elaborations on your argument. If you are trying to tell me she has extreme brute strength, that's clearly not the case given her only way of making such force is by releasing lots of chakra instantly [

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].

water clones use 10 % of your chakra. So its more like he was at 21%.

Correct, but irrelevant since they weren't touching the floor.

false. Shunshin's chakra cost is based on the the distance and elevation. And like I said b4 unless you think it costs 24% of kisame's chakra to use a shunshin. U have no argument. Kakashi already explained that the only time jutsu's fail is when the user tries it without the proper chakra requirements (sasuke trying a 3rd chidori despite limit being 2)

And like I said before, Shunshin is irrelevant here, Lol.

already debunked.

Nope.

Without clones or flight evading properly in mid air is nigh impossible. Not even kabuto who has sage mode was able to evade properly.
Don't call on him when your arguments are shit.

Did you seriously just debunk your entire argument by yourself? Wow, lmao.

we do. How else are they landing hits on the tailed beasts?
that's impossible to tell from an angle coming from behind naruto. read above.

Yes, that happens after Gai opens 6th gate, and then we see nothing. So you still fail to give me reason to believe the Bijuu's they hit were the same distance apart, and you still fail to give me reason to believe Kakashi was not in front of Gai, when he clearly was, Lol.

right back at ya.

Someone sounds a little overexcited for nothing.

Thanks KG.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Idk kazekage future gaara solos the two lol ...

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

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If I'm not mistaken tht s a clone ???? That wasn't real kisame ...

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Yes, but at that particular moment he mentioned strength and jutsu, which are the component parts to the rest of the things speed and types of ninjutsu.

baseless. He was specific on what and exactly what is effected by the jutsu. Please stop adding your extra crap and misinterpretation to try justify your cause.

So, intricate if you take into account everything he said, but not intricate when you look at that statement in particular.

it's only 1 statement. He mentioned 4 drawbacks. Speed isn't one of them. END of discussion.

Yes, but in one the person died and in the other he was still speaking. That's a huge difference, not to mention v2 strength, speed and hardness>>>>>>>>>>>>6th Gate Gai.

now you're overwanking Lariat. Sasuke got hit by v1 and only passed out, and he is by no means a durability champ, not to mention still healing from injuries prior to the whole fight.
Heck kakashi and guy blocked v2 tail swipes with no difficulty either. Then there's samehada weaking the attack the moment killer b came in close proximity to it.

On the flip side guy's punches are so fast and powerful that it causes the air around his hands to turn to fire. Fireballs that are strong enough to take out a water shark despite water sharks having the elemental advantage. Kisame's body took a flurry of these hits at point blank range with absolutely 0 way to weaken the blow or heal via samehada.

It should be extremely clear in this case:
asakujaku> any form of Lariat. When it comes to kisame.
So so there goes your inferior durability argument.

And KG is right, it's 10%, meaning the real one is 21% chakra.
And what the hell? Shunshin is still irrelevant to this discussion, because neither Kisame nor Gai were touching the ground.

touching the ground has nothing to do with shunshin.

So you have yet to elaborate on your shunshin point, because right now it's not helping your argument at all.

Shunahin:Body Flicker Technique is a high-speed movement technique, allowing a ninja to move short to long distances at an almost untraceable speed.[2] To an observer, it appears as if the user has teleported. A puff of smoke is occasionally used to disguise the user's movements. It is accomplished by using chakra to temporarily vitalise the body and move at extreme speeds. The amount of chakra required depends on the overall distance and elevation between the user and the intended destination.
like I been saying for the longest. Strength and speed don't correlate, with shunshin the body(not just the feet) becomes faster. It's not about releasing chakra to the floor either. So idk why you're saying it's irrelevant cuz they're in mid air. Going by your logic the onnoki/raikage combo would be counter productive since he's in mid air all the time.

Have already conceded that per KG's post.

you should have conceded based on itachi's statement. Instead of making crap up.

How does her existence shit on my post? You stated her name and you have yet to tell me how she is doing anything against my argument I can say Hinata as a reply to a wallie, doesn't mean I have developed an argument. Same with you, you say names and then fail to give any decent elaborations on your argument. If you are trying to tell me she has extreme brute strength, that's clearly not the case given her only way of making such force is by releasing lots of chakra instantly [

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].

you said "body strength effects speed. With 30% of his strength he can only move 30 as fast. "

Sakura is by no means strong or fast yet through shunshin and her chakra enhanced punches she can be both. Hence why bodily strength dosen't correlate or have anything to do with speed.
Through her yin seal she shown the strength feats superior to tsunade despite tsunade having the better leinage and superior chakra reservations. Proving that even though her reserves are inferior (the 30% kisame if you will) it dosen't effect the ability and power of the techniques. That craps on your. "With 30% the attacks/jutsu would be weaker" argument.

Correct, but irrelevant since they weren't touching the floor.

what does being in mid air have to do with anything?

And like I said before, Shunshin is irrelevant here, Lol.

why?

Nope.

yep.

Did you seriously just debunk your entire argument by yourself? Wow, lmao.

no. U don't get it. U said

"since he doesn't have the strength to move his entire body and evade in time"

We already know that that's not true since shunshin invigorates the whole body to move at gosh speeds. But even with it(had he used it or not) he still couldn't even finish his own thoughts b4 getting kicked in the face. Meaning he couldn't react. Where as he reacted easily to killer bee's Lariats.

Yes, that happens after Gai opens 6th gate, and then we see nothing.

we see them hitting the tailed beasts :|

So you still fail to give me reason to believe the Bijuu's they hit were the same distance apart, and you still fail to give me reason to believe Kakashi was not in front of Gai, when he clearly was, Lol.

He Clearly wasn't. If Kakashi was in front of guy he wouldn't have gotten smacked by the tailed beast kakashi was fighting.

Someone sounds a little overexcited for nothing.

Thanks KG.

[/QUOTE] over exited about what? Proving u wrong?

 

[BenjerminGaye]

If I'm not mistaken tht s a clone ???? That wasn't real kisame ...

Despite being a clone it's reaction time is the same.

 

[Dęvîa Puęrî]

Despite being a clone it's reaction time is the same.

But when the clone thing disappeared it revealed to be some fodder do u have proof that the bitsy alters the speed durability etc of the host ? To match that said ninja think about it if tht 6 gate gai crushed tht kisame with just a kick or what ever why didn't a v2 bee lariet crush him as well ?? Cuz that should be stronger lol.... I kno ur arguing speed but I'm just saying tht isn't kisame that is some fodder clone tht kisame placed in some jutsu that makes him look like him and use jutsu or at least on the same lvl like him but not on full scale .... That's really it it doesn't really alter its body physically or at least I dnt think it does cuz kisame was able to tank bee attack yet wasn't able to block gai attack it dnt make since so if the durability isn't the same why should the speed be ?

 

[narutokage99]

Why did you reduce Kakashi's chakra?
This is more like a custom fan fiction match up than anything else.

We know nothing from them as Kage.

Anyway the logic would say Kakashi, i don't think Darui would ever surpass him.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

But when the clone thing disappeared it revealed to be some fodder do u have proof that the bitsy alters the speed durability etc of the host ? To match that said ninja think about it if tht 6 gate gai crushed tht kisame with just a kick or what ever why didn't a v2 bee lariet crush him as well ?? Cuz that should be stronger lol.... I kno ur arguing speed but I'm just saying tht isn't kisame that is some fodder clone tht kisame placed in some jutsu that makes him look like him and use jutsu or at least on the same lvl like him but not on full scale .... That's really it it doesn't really alter its body physically or at least I dnt think it does cuz kisame was able to tank bee attack yet wasn't able to block gai attack it dnt make since so if the durability isn't the same why should the speed be ?

Yes. Itachi said it's the body is identical to the user. The only difference is chakra capacity. It even produced a samehada.
Even db states it as KG posted.
Kisame tanked neither attack. Both left him near dead or dead. But unlike against killer b samehada couldn't heal him.

 

[KidGamer65]

When Itachi said "strength" is proportional to the amount of chakra given to the sacrifice, it could be interpreted as their strength being lowered because their strongest jutsu require more than 30% of their chakra to use effectively. An example would be Itachi's MS, which he can't use via Shoten. If they were only at 30% strength, then all their moves should be cut down to that level, yet DB and Kakashi state that Shoten Itachi's Fireball Jutsu=Normal Fireball Jutsu.