Hiruzen was a poor leader

[PainIsGod]

To me Hiruzen was simply a poor leader. He never had the courage to put his foot down when needing to. He may have been seen, known, and had the title of hokage, but Danzo was the one really leading the village.

I mean in the recent chapter when the people of the orphanage said they would go to Hiruzen had Danzo and the leaf stopped funding the orphanage if they didn't cooperate, but Danzo didn't even care, which pretty much tells me that Hiruzen was very soft and simply let people step on him when it came to political issues.

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Another issue with him was his handling of Orochimaru. He continued to be naive thinking his student would change and refused to kill him and it ended up costing him his life and deaths of his fellow shinobi.

Then there's the issue of the Uchiha massacre where Danzo orchestrated the entire thing and Hiruzen knew about it, but still failed to stop it. He just seemed way too soft and naive and it ended up resulting in a lot of things that could've been avoided had he the courage to do what needed to be done.

This is in no way trying to say Hiruzen is a weak shinobi, only a poor leader. Danzo was the true hokage of that village.

I completely agree with this ^

 

[East Click]

I agree Hiruzen was a poor leader and tactician.

Reasons:
1. Orochimaru debacle.
2. Sasuke missin-nin. (They should have seen this coming. Hello, he is just the last Uchiha. No ANBU guards/surveillance?)
3. Uchiha Massacre
4. Sannin dispersal. (Lessened military strength of Konoha. You will never leave a good leader.)
5. Losing Hatake "The White Fang" Sakumo. (Better than the sannin. Lessened military strength of Konoha. No support or counseling?)
6. Failure to contain Danzo which led to the existence of Pain.
7. Failure to contain Danzo which led to the existence of Kabuto Dragon.
8. Failure to contain Danzo which led to more Orochimaru problem.
9. Mismanagement in handling the Hyuga affair that led to the (avoidable) death of Neji's father.
10. Considering all of the above.

But he was a good father, a good grandfather and a good pervert.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

agreed. if he had been a harder leader maybe the massacre and coup could have been avoided. he didnt do what needed to be done like tobirama and to some extent, tsunade. all the hokages were pretty *****. the best leaders were 4th kazekage, hanzo, muu and danzo.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

I agree Hiruzen was a poor leader and tactician.

Reasons:
1. Orochimaru debacle.
2. Sasuke missin-nin. (They should have seen this coming. Hello, he is just the last Uchiha. No ANBU guards/surveillance?)
3. Uchiha Massacre
4. Sannin dispersal. (Lessened military strength of Konoha. You will never leave a good leader.)
5. Losing Hatake "The White Fang" Sakumo. (Better than the sannin. Lessened military strength of Konoha. No support or counseling?)
6. Failure to contain Danzo which led to the existence of Pain.
7. Failure to contain Danzo which led to the existence of Kabuto Dragon.
8. Failure to contain Danzo which led to more Orochimaru problem.
9. Mismanagement in handling the Hyuga affair that led to the (avoidable) death of Neji's father.
10. Considering all of the above.

But he was a good father, a good grandfather and a good pervert.

dont forget uchiha segregation, naruto being bullied and mistreated, letting kids die in the forest of death (so much for a grandfather), declaring war on other countries (according to nagato, konoha started the 2nd world war), not giving the kyuubi jin a better safeguard (his wife? really? couldnt he have been with them his damn self?), not selecting a 5th hokage when hes obviously too senile to run the place.

 

[slashestranged]

i agree. he is the weakest kage too. if he had handled the uchiha clan properly the leaf wouldve been unstoppable like they always were but they managed to lose their strongest clan. if he had handled naruto properly, he couldve had a huge asset to the leaf way earlier. i think naruto shouldve been given to jiraiya as a foster child when he was a baby because he thought of minato as his son and naruto as his grandchild anyway and he self proclaimed himself as narutos godfather

 

[Nidaime Pupil]

Danzo didn't care because IF you read he says a thief would be able to get in implying that even if Hiruzen kept the money going in they, root members, would steal it becoming thieves and Hiruzen would never know it was root members.

 

[slashestranged]

dont forget uchiha segregation, naruto being bullied and mistreated, letting kids die in the forest of death (so much for a grandfather), declaring war on other countries (according to nagato, konoha started the 2nd world war), not giving the kyuubi jin a better safeguard (his wife? really? couldnt he have been with them his damn self?), not selecting a 5th hokage when hes obviously too senile to run the place.

if i remember correctly, the third was planning on going with them but minato said they need him at konoha just in case.

but i still agree he is a f@ggot and couldve sent some actual renowned shinobi to guard the area instead of his wife like jiyaiya and tsunade

 

[V1sion]

Hiruzen was a leader? The last time I checked, he was sitting in his chair smoking crack while Tobi was executing Kurama onto the village. He´s a crack head and half his actions are quite dubious.

 

[GoneLookingForMyself]

Okay, I'm going to risk instant death and put forth a little theory of mine:
Danzo was meant to be the Third Hokage.
To boil down my reasoning as much as possible, here goes.
A: Let us first assume that the Second Hokage was going to choose the next Hokage out of the two teams he directed; his brother's (Saru, Koharu, Homura) and his own (Danzo, Kagami, Torifu).
B: Going by process of elimination: Torifu was an Akimichi and you really don't see them being leader types, Homura was too cautious and bookish, Koharu was a girl - this probably would have been more of an issue back then - and perhaps a little too impetuous, Kagami was an Uchiha and they really weren't trusted at that time.
This brings us to a choice between Sarutobi and Danzo. Imagine, for a moment, that you're the Second Hokage, there's a war on, with life-and-death on-the-spot decisions to be made every day and assassinations and subterfuge to watch for at every turn. Both of the boys have their own flaws, but which would cause the least harm in the situation the village is in? The overly serious, slightly fanatical about protecting the village, suspicious one? Or the slightly arrogant nice guy who tends to overlook things and lean towards pacifism?
...
During a war? Danzo, with all his flaws, all the way. Plus, he was the 2nd's student; the Second was probably planning to stay in office longer to train the kid and work through some of his problems, after which he would be excellent Hokage material.
So why, we must ask (or at least I must ask, as everyone gapes at me in disbelief) why was Saru chosen and not Danzo?
Why did the Second Hokage sacrifice himself?
Yep, it's a pertinent question.
Item A! As Danzo pointed out, the Second was the greatest ninja in the village, the Leaf's leader. Letting himself perish would demoralize the whole place and cause a whole lot of damage; in situations like these it is the honorable, done thing for one of the subordinates to sacrifice themselves for their leader. He would have known that. Also, to have him not even consider the option of ambushing the enemy? He was the most powerful shinobi in Leaf and had six madly talented young shinobi with him.
Item B! He doesn't address Danzo's concern about that matter. Instead, he cuts him off curtly with a reminder not to fight Sarutobi. He then proceeds to ignore the rest of them to give a little speech to Saru and then runs off. No orders for his team... no farewell... seems a little fishy, ne?
Item C! Hashirama and Tobirama both died young. Mystery surrounds Hashirama's death: how could a man that powerful have died in battle? The more logical explanation would be that he was murdered. He and his brother were both the kind of leader that usually gets knocked off by corrupt council members or just people that hate them. So... one can surmise that Tobirama was murdered too.
Item D! How could that have been accomplished? That kind of mind manipulation can be wielded by Yamanakas or... Uchihas.
Who in his team bore a strong resemblance to Shisui, who weilded a doujutsu that could have produced almost that identical effect? Who was the one who loudly stated that they would not ambush the enemy, and does not speak again for the rest of the scene? Who was kneeling in the semi-circle, with a perfect opportunity to meet Tobirama's eyes?
Yep. I think Kagami Uchiha did it in the forest clearing with a doujutsu.
Why? Either on his own behalf, or his clan's, or he was hired by the village elders or a foreign power. There are several possibilities. And as to what could be gained by Saru becoming Hokage? That's obvious. It drastically weakened Konoha's strength during wartime, slowing every movement. It made it possible for all sorts of dirty business to be carried out without anyone noticing. It placed a rather easily influenced and too-nice person in power, making it a prime situation for easy manipulation.
The only reason that Konoha survived, and not only survived but came out on top as the most prosperous village of the five, was Danzo. He basically decided to take matters into his own hands, build up his own task force (Root) and act as Hokage in many things.
Sarutobi's leadership and the way he handles threats is terrible. When they KNEW Orochimaru was hanging around the village during the chunnin exams basically saying 'yeah, I want you to do this and this and would somebody bring me a soft-boiled egg while you're at it?' his response was 'Ummm... maybe he's being hired by some other country... I think I'll divert all our forces there... no, we're not going to warn anybody he's here... and Aoba, could you take him that egg?'
:sy:
Oh, and if you want to know what Danzo did about the Orochimaru threat, that's a whole other theory... but I've probably rambled on long enough. I welcome opinions on my murder-mystery Danzo-was-supposed-to-be-the-third theory! wease: Rude responses... well, if they're still referred to as 'flames' on here, I'll use them to fuel the Will Of Fire.
Now to go looking for myself! If I return before I come back, please tell me to wait.

 

[natssuu]

It sounds like you're saying Danzo was better leader than Hiruzen, which isn't true.

 

[Owarij]

Hiruzen was a leader? The last time I checked, he was sitting in his chair smoking crack while Tobi was executing Kurama onto the village. He´s a crack head and half his actions are quite dubious.

minato was leader then...

hiruzen did crap in his time but he also got the village through about 2 ninja wars, made alliances and other good things..

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

It's called plot no jutsu lmao

 

[Kratos of cruxis]

Okay, I'm going to risk instant death and put forth a little theory of mine:
Danzo was meant to be the Third Hokage.
To boil down my reasoning as much as possible, here goes.
A: Let us first assume that the Second Hokage was going to choose the next Hokage out of the two teams he directed; his brother's (Saru, Koharu, Homura) and his own (Danzo, Kagami, Torifu).
B: Going by process of elimination: Torifu was an Akimichi and you really don't see them being leader types, Homura was too cautious and bookish, Koharu was a girl - this probably would have been more of an issue back then - and perhaps a little too impetuous, Kagami was an Uchiha and they really weren't trusted at that time.
This brings us to a choice between Sarutobi and Danzo. Imagine, for a moment, that you're the Second Hokage, there's a war on, with life-and-death on-the-spot decisions to be made every day and assassinations and subterfuge to watch for at every turn. Both of the boys have their own flaws, but which would cause the least harm in the situation the village is in? The overly serious, slightly fanatical about protecting the village, suspicious one? Or the slightly arrogant nice guy who tends to overlook things and lean towards pacifism?
...
During a war? Danzo, with all his flaws, all the way. Plus, he was the 2nd's student; the Second was probably planning to stay in office longer to train the kid and work through some of his problems, after which he would be excellent Hokage material.
So why, we must ask (or at least I must ask, as everyone gapes at me in disbelief) why was Saru chosen and not Danzo?
Why did the Second Hokage sacrifice himself?
Yep, it's a pertinent question.
Item A! As Danzo pointed out, the Second was the greatest ninja in the village, the Leaf's leader. Letting himself perish would demoralize the whole place and cause a whole lot of damage; in situations like these it is the honorable, done thing for one of the subordinates to sacrifice themselves for their leader. He would have known that. Also, to have him not even consider the option of ambushing the enemy? He was the most powerful shinobi in Leaf and had six madly talented young shinobi with him.
Item B! He doesn't address Danzo's concern about that matter. Instead, he cuts him off curtly with a reminder not to fight Sarutobi. He then proceeds to ignore the rest of them to give a little speech to Saru and then runs off. No orders for his team... no farewell... seems a little fishy, ne?
Item C! Hashirama and Tobirama both died young. Mystery surrounds Hashirama's death: how could a man that powerful have died in battle? The more logical explanation would be that he was murdered. He and his brother were both the kind of leader that usually gets knocked off by corrupt council members or just people that hate them. So... one can surmise that Tobirama was murdered too.
Item D! How could that have been accomplished? That kind of mind manipulation can be wielded by Yamanakas or... Uchihas.
Who in his team bore a strong resemblance to Shisui, who weilded a doujutsu that could have produced almost that identical effect? Who was the one who loudly stated that they would not ambush the enemy, and does not speak again for the rest of the scene? Who was kneeling in the semi-circle, with a perfect opportunity to meet Tobirama's eyes?
Yep. I think Kagami Uchiha did it in the forest clearing with a doujutsu.
Why? Either on his own behalf, or his clan's, or he was hired by the village elders or a foreign power. There are several possibilities. And as to what could be gained by Saru becoming Hokage? That's obvious. It drastically weakened Konoha's strength during wartime, slowing every movement. It made it possible for all sorts of dirty business to be carried out without anyone noticing. It placed a rather easily influenced and too-nice person in power, making it a prime situation for easy manipulation.
The only reason that Konoha survived, and not only survived but came out on top as the most prosperous village of the five, was Danzo. He basically decided to take matters into his own hands, build up his own task force (Root) and act as Hokage in many things.
Sarutobi's leadership and the way he handles threats is terrible. When they KNEW Orochimaru was hanging around the village during the chunnin exams basically saying 'yeah, I want you to do this and this and would somebody bring me a soft-boiled egg while you're at it?' his response was 'Ummm... maybe he's being hired by some other country... I think I'll divert all our forces there... no, we're not going to warn anybody he's here... and Aoba, could you take him that egg?'
:sy:
Oh, and if you want to know what Danzo did about the Orochimaru threat, that's a whole other theory... but I've probably rambled on long enough. I welcome opinions on my murder-mystery Danzo-was-supposed-to-be-the-third theory! wease: Rude responses... well, if they're still referred to as 'flames' on here, I'll use them to fuel the Will Of Fire.
Now to go looking for myself! If I return before I come back, please tell me to wait.

I wanted to read the whole think but I seen a flaw in your theory hashirama and tobirama both trained hiruzen danzo's sensei hasn't been revealed most likly never well

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

I think the 3rd did OK for his time apart from the oro business, the rest after that was meant to be in the hands of the fourth as the 3rd was old and wacky after all his crack now lol but after the 4th died and the position was given back to the 3rd he grew to fond of the village now so he couldn't make the right decisions :shrug: maybe. Like if the fourth was in power I don't think the uchiha massacre would of happened

 

[Elio]

I agree. Althouh I did like the old man.

 

[ghost nappa]

Think of it this way. Hiruzen was president, while Danzo was head of CIA and every bit as secretive and underhanded.

 

[GoneLookingForMyself]

Well I have to agree to some point but at the same time...

Where was Danzo during the nine tails attack, the Oro attack & the Pein attack :scorps:

During the Orochimaru attack: Kishi hadn't thought of him yet. You can't blame a guy for not helping when he's naught but a nebulous concept at the back of a Japanese guy's mind.
During the nine tails attack? I'm guessing he was trying to discover what the Uchihas, who were all missing as well, were up to. He reminds me of Snape so much sometimes - you know, he vanishes from the scene of crises but you find out it that it wasn't that it was his fault, just he was trying to field something nobody else knew about.
During the Pain attack: Underground. Ensuring that Konoha would actually have a fighting force and a leader left after the attack. Maybe it wasn't the absolute right choice, but at that point I was totally rooting for Tsunade to get kicked out of office. She wasn't a good choice in the first place, she had multiple times demonstrated her immaturity and unfitness, and the fact that she'd just let Konoha's jinchuuriki run around God-knows-where with nobody but Jiraiya for protection for two and a half years probably drove him to make the decision.

 

[Killer Vision]

I disagree. His tenure as the hokage was by far worst than any hokage.

1.Oro betrayal
2.Uchiha massacre
3.Death of his successor-the 4th
4.Oro's invansion

A lesser hokage would have left the village in ruins
Btw..Uchiha massacre couldn't b help. it has either the uchiha or the village.

 

[123justsayin]

dafuq kind of logic is that??
all of the hokages are good leaders.
some may be weaker than others *cough* tsunade *cough*, but none of them were bad leaders.

Of course. Forget about her 1 hit KO punch and tanking power and just categorize her with the weaklings because her speed is not on par with the speedsters.

It makes perfect sense. :scorps:

 

[Kratos of cruxis]

if i remember correctly, the third was planning on going with them but minato said they need him at konoha just in case.

but i still agree he is a f@ggot and couldve sent some actual renowned shinobi to guard the area instead of his wife like jiyaiya and tsunade

Wasnt minato the hokage at the time couldnt he have ordered a renowned ninja to come with them