Hiruzen vs. Onoki

[Enton]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

So tell me. Was Hiruzen ever capable of coming remotely close to beating someone like Madara?



Well,

Nobody knew Hashirama's power since it was considered god like. Just like nobody knew of Madara. And if Orochimaru asked Hashirama and Tobirama to fight how they wanted do you really think they'd attack Hiruzen?

And Kabuto said he mastered it to a higher degree then Orochimaru. Therefore Kabuto made it more the perfect. So even if Orochimaru did have "perfect" control he couldn't use them to their fullest anyways. And asking them to fight how they wanted to wouldnt make sense.

The way you present the question suggests to me opinion is important to you. For someone heralded as the strongest hokage i'm sure he'd be more helpful than Onoki, who i've given an accurate analysis of in the OP.

 

[Hipster Madara]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

That's a huge factor. The Power scale drastically changed from the time of the Hiruzen vs. Orochimaru fight to us seeing Oonoki fight.

That's why so many ninja look like complete fodders now (Zabuza, Konoha 11, ANBU, etc etc.)

If that Hiruzen vs. Orochimaru fight were to take place at the same distance from the beginning of the Manga to where we are now, the fight would be completely different. Probably one of the bigger fights of the manga because the power scaling increased drastically.

exactly.
i hope kishi makes this power scale difficulty come to an end soon.
it's just confusing the crap out of people atm because you can't know for certain if power level problem or just stronger...

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

So tell me. Was Hiruzen ever capable of coming remotely close to beating someone like Madara?



Well,

Nobody knew Hashirama's power since it was considered god like. Just like nobody knew of Madara. And if Orochimaru asked Hashirama and Tobirama to fight how they wanted do you really think they'd attack Hiruzen?

And Kabuto said he mastered it to a higher degree then Orochimaru. Therefore Kabuto made it more the perfect. So even if Orochimaru did have "perfect" control he couldn't use them to their fullest anyways. And asking them to fight how they wanted to wouldnt make sense.

I have put in bold some of the smartest things I have heard today

 

[YourMom]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

People overrate hiruzen after seeing him fight to imperfect edos and opinions quoted from the manga. People overrate onoki and mū because of what their ability can do although we've never seem it done to anyone Atleast I haven't. For all the hype dust release has everyone he's used it against has dodged it lol. All three of them are overrated if you ask me.

 

[Owarij]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

So tell me. Was Hiruzen ever capable of coming remotely close to beating someone like Madara?



Well,

Nobody knew Hashirama's power since it was considered god like. Just like nobody knew of Madara. And if Orochimaru asked Hashirama and Tobirama to fight how they wanted do you really think they'd attack Hiruzen?

And Kabuto said he mastered it to a higher degree then Orochimaru. Therefore Kabuto made it more the perfect. So even if Orochimaru did have "perfect" control he couldn't use them to their fullest anyways. And asking them to fight how they wanted to wouldnt make sense.

You completely contradict yourself when you say he didn't know their power

yet he very well knew his navity, bringer of darkness , water wall, water dragon bullet etc....

What part of that fight indicates he didn't know anything?

Only some people considered Hashirama's powers a myth.. and mostly the new gen kids.... Orochimaru, kakashi etc all know he existed.. Orochimaru actually tried cloning the man.. resulting in yamato.... And did experiments on his dna for danzo...
So don't come at me with that one bit...

Even tsunade very well knew of hashi's abilities... when madara used flower world ......Why wouldn't orochimaru know? you underestimate his intelligence...

Minato has knowledge on abilities of Tobirama and he died years ago...before he was even born...

The thing kabuto improved on, which was stressed in this war was his ability to control tons of people.....
other than that, oro's edo tensei was perfected as he said...

 

[Zoro..]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

The way you present the question suggests to me opinion is important to you. For someone heralded as the strongest hokage i'm sure he'd be more helpful than Onoki, who i've given an accurate analysis of in the OP.

-Sigh-
I ususally dont get myself into debates nor do I feel like it because I hate looking for manga evidence and all that I just remember things.

Though I recall Madara stating that Oonoki was a lot of trouble because of his will. He is really old and in my opinion is the only reason the Kages are left alive. His battle experience and strong will keep them fighting. Hiruzen wouldn't have done as much as him. His dust techniques are monsterous what does Hiruzen have for techniques that scale on that destructive level?

 

[Enton]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

Tells me Hiruzen < Onoki after Kabuto already said Hiruzen was the strongest kage of his generation, including Onoki and the 3rd Raikage.

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

That's it i'm going to make a thread about hiruzen you people are beginning to annoy me.

3 days ago you told me that kishi, oro, kabuto and others said that hiruzen was "god of shinobi" and the "strongest of all previous kages"

I proved you all wrong then you told me that he defeated hashi and tobi, then I proved all of you wrong stating how he needed to use RDS because it became clear he had no chance of winning.

He couldn't even seal oro, you know why? because oro stabbed a sword through his chest so he wasn't able to completely seal him.

Yet you people say he beat oro, hashi and tobi?? fools.

He was called god of shinobi (by foddders) so are you telling me he is stronger then rinnegan madara (not edo) because of this title? no he is not so how the hell can you use he was called god of shinobi in a debate when he clearly wasn't.

This is just a tiny about of points I will raise.

 

[realobito1]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

Completely failure argument. Why? Orochimaru had a imperfect Edo Tensei and did not have full knowledge of their power. Did Hashirama use his giant forest with pollin? Did the Tobirama use S/T or anything besides his more basic attacks? No because Orochimaru was terrible at using them.

For your second argument Onoki has Dust which is probably the strongest elemental KG. If I had the choice to go up against Hiruzen or Onoki Id chose Hiruzen any day because Onoki may be far older but he seems far stronger due to dust. In my opinion Hiruzen is overrated (not crap). Just cause Kishi said he was the best dosent mean it's true because he contradicted himself often enough in the manga when he changes his mind on things.

Exactly kishi contridicts himself. Nobody said that the first was not at his best he probably did not use powerful attacks at the sake of maintaining the fighting ground. I think the point was that the 3rd could hold his own against such powerful oponents even at his old age. How come Shikaku did not use the tailed beast ball against naruto and gamabunta. Because plot said so. I think if their was some way for us to see hizuren today I think he would be juiced up to compete with the DBZ level ninja like A and Onoki. Definition of power has changed between part 1 and part 2

 

[YourMom]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

-Sigh-
I ususally dont get myself into debates nor do I feel like it because I hate looking for manga evidence and all that I just remember things.

Though I recall Madara stating that Oonoki was a lot of trouble because of his will. He is really old and in my opinion is the only reason the Kages are left alive. His battle experience and strong will keep them fighting. Hiruzen wouldn't have done as much as him. His dust techniques are monsterous what does Hiruzen have for techniques that scale on that destructive level?

Whether or not hiruzen has anything as powerful as dust release on a destruction scale is unknown because so little is know and so little was showed of the abilities he knows. It's highly doubtful that he does, but no one can say for sure. I like you don't think that he does, but that's just my opinion.

Exactly kishi contridicts himself. Nobody said that the first was not at his best he probably did not use powerful attacks at the sake of maintaining the fighting ground. I think the point was that the 3rd could hold his own against such powerful oponents even at his old age. How come Shikaku did not use the tailed beast ball against naruto and gamabunta. Because plot said so. I think if their was some way for us to see hizuren today I think he would be juiced up to compete with the DBZ level ninja like a and Onoki

I wouldn't call What he did holding his own, they were toying with him as said in the manga. He was on the defensive most of the battle in my opinion.

 

[Enton]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

I'll repeat;

Tells me Hiruzen < Onoki after Kabuto already said Hiruzen was the strongest kage of his generation, which includes Onoki and the 3rd Raikage.

 

[Stark]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

Nobody said Oonoki is stronger than Hiruzen

 

[Enton]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

Nobody said Oonoki is stronger than Hiruzen

Oh really? Why don't you look through this thread?

 

[realobito1]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

That's it i'm going to make a thread about hiruzen you people are beginning to annoy me.

3 days ago you told me that kishi, oro, kabuto and others said that hiruzen was "god of shinobi" and the "strongest of all previous kages"

I proved you all wrong then you told me that he defeated hashi and tobi, then I proved all of you wrong stating how he needed to use RDS because it became clear he had no chance of winning.

He couldn't even seal oro, you know why? because oro stabbed a sword through his chest so he wasn't able to completely seal him.

Yet you people say he beat oro, hashi and tobi?? fools.

He was called god of shinobi (by foddders) so are you telling me he is stronger then rinnegan madara (not edo) because of this title? no he is not so how the hell can you use he was called god of shinobi in a debate when he clearly wasn't.

This is just a tiny about of points I will raise.

God of shinobi is his title. That is a fact. That does not mean it is literal but it does speak for his strength. If the rest of the kage were introduced during this time I am sure they would have a similar level of strength. Either that or hizuren would get a major power up. You have to compare their powers on a scale that makes sense in both manga. Hizuren held up against oro and 2 kages. No matter what anybody says that is impressive. If he can do that we can assume he is on the same level of strength as the kage shown today.

 

[radize]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

Who knOws if thatz eDo perfect or nOt. I think the way they coNtrol it, becAuse 1st and 2nd nO intentioN too fiGht 3rd, buT in madaras sitUatioN and the bAd guys i think they have freEwil to give 100% of there power...

 

[TiddlySkydiver]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

When Hashirama was summoned with Edo, he was not at full power. Think about it, Madara said that if Hashirama was at the current fight they would have to completely redo maps because the sheer magnitude of his power could change landscapes. Did Hashi change landscapes in the fight with the old man? Nowhere near it? There's your answer.

Oh, and don't forget what Madara said in the fight about Hashirama, Part 2 definitions of strength > part 1.

 

[realobito1]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

I think the point is that though the 3rd is not very strong compared to some ninja today but he is supposed to be. So dont say that he is not. It is not fair that the first gets a chance to redefine his strength and hizuren does not. A truer thing has never been said when you say part one and part two are not the same in power.

 

[FizzyDrink]

Re: I have a question for some of you "debaters"

Orochimaru perfected edo tensei.. He said it, Kabuto said it.. how do you know he didn't have full control?

He wouldn't control them if he didn't have full knowledge.. Like when kabuto didn't have full knowledge what did he do? ask madara to fight for him....

God do you people like making stuff up

I don't know if I remember correctly, but wasn't Orochimaru's form of controlling them different? It was either he took complete control or they were in complete control of themselves. Kabuto said that he had come up with a new seal to control the edos that allowed them to stay in control but provided them with a mission that they must complete, or something like that. Which means that even if Orochimaru did not have full knowledge of the two hokages, he would have had to take full control because otherwise they would have not done anything. Hence why he took full control in the first place, and clearly didn't use their full powers.

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Secondly to the OP, Orochimaru effectively won the battle. When Hiruzen was in Bringer of Darkness, he was being humiliated and totally beat down. At any moment in that jutsu he could have easily been killed. So he should have lost there. Really, the only thing that kept Hiruzen alive in that fight was Orochimaru's desire to not only win, but completely destroy his old sensei.

Nonetheless, I will admit that Hiruzen was certainly very powerful in his prime. I don't know if he was as powerful as Oonoki, because you shouldn't underrate Oonoki either, considering what he's doing in this war. So it could really go either way, although I'm inclined to go towards Oonoki because we've seen actual feats on his part.

 

[Minator93]

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THREAD CLOSED !

 

[~MC117~]

Onoki would win with high difficulty IMO or it could go either way