Hiruzen vs ems sasuke

[Blaze Release]

Gotta go back to bed, but saw this thread and had to reply lol
This is what ill say about Hiruzen.
If you notice, Tobirama and Hashirama like Hiruzen also got all the elements.

I believe hashirama's buddha can also produce the elements.
Now if you go back to hiruzen's feat agaisn't the SS you'll notice that he produced the exact same technique of each element to counter it.

We never got the names of the techniques, but i am certain due to the similarities it is obviously the same techniques of the SS and you have to wonder where he learnt them from, possibly from Hashirama.

Secondly, some of the suiton feats by Tobirama has been demonstrated by the likes of Kakashi/itachi/Darui. For me this is enough to say that Hiruzen should also know and can use the same suiton feats as Tobirama.

For example the (mass) kage bunshin was recorded in the scroll that Naruto stole and belonged to Hashirama.

We know that Minato copied Tobirama's hiraishin. That is enough to say that it was also recorded.

If i remember correctly Orochimaru also got his hands on edo tensei somehow.

So we know the brothers recorded their techniques, especially tobirama was seems to have created a fair few techniques in his time and tbh i have reached the conclusion that every technique tobirama has shown, he created lol.

You also have to wonder how the hokage's all know about the barrier technique they used agains't the juubi and can perform it. Gai also confirms that it is a technique that only those of hokage level can use.

Finally the gates techniques is a technique that i have believed came from konoha and its interesting how the likes of Madara and Minato also seem to know about it, but also so far all the users are konoha shinobi's.

For me these little hints, proves that there are techniques that are not kg's or hiden techniques that the clearly has been recorded and passed down. Some are at the hokage's office and others possible from the konoha library. In fact on wiki, it seems to reference the 4th DB which states that he indeed has knowledge and skill to produce the hiden techniques.

You must be registered for see links

Under the ninjutsu. The second link references the DB4 pages 170-171

This is a joke, but i am serious at the same time. Hiruzen uses the Tomegane technique to observe the village and he used this to track naruto and witnessed the beat down that naruto gave to that fodder when he used the mass kage bunshin. He may have used this technique to learn the hiden techniques of the clans lol

Just with the tomegane technique he could have learn't hiden techniques as he could have used it for spying purposes. Also he seems to be a willing learner of ninjutsu. Jiraiya's invisibility/camouflage technique that he was developing to spy on naked women. If i remember correctly Hiruzen wanted in on it. Perhaps for his own perverted use, or maybe because he believes a technique/idea that allows the user to turn invisible is interesting and may have corrected any weakness that the technique had, that jiraiya didn't see.


OT. Enma will curse the day he allowed hiruzen to form a contract with him, the day he fights an ems user and comes up agains't PS. No matter what hype Prime Hiruzen has, he is going to get a good beating agains't Sasuke.

 

[Nattana]

I read it, and you're right, so I'll agree with him having all the Hiden Ninjutsu (good thing my arguments replied to them anyway) but definitely not things like Hiraishin.

Hiruzen can't use Hiden jutsu. Go read Blaze's thread. He explains it well there.

 

[Draegod]

Ok.


Never said he would. I only said it's not going to be much much stronger.


Lol. Databook says he can use them, but this is terrible logic. Hiruzen seeing the jutsu doesn't mean he can use them, and no, all jutsu's power aren't decided by chakra strength alone. There is no difference between any of the 3-Tomoe Genjutsu, MS Genjutsu, and EMS Genjutsu used in the mange, despite the chakras of these user's clearly not being equal.

FIrst off: What makes you say 3 Tomoe Genjutsu=Ms=EMS=ShaRinnegan???? DO I need to Go in detailed on how flawed that logic is?

Why wouldn't it be equal to the best user we have seen use it? When he literally is smarter then every single one of them one could argue and has/had more chakra by a landslide. Lets stop the hate for once in your life and use common since on this one.

Again, I'm trying to keep it simple and not go crazy with the manga plus databook facts to back me up. Let's stop being stubborn and use logic:

1. How do you learn anything in life? Vision! (he has the ability to see all clans and there practice!)
2. You need chakra nature and Level to preform said jutsu correct? He has both Higher chakra and all 7 natures! (sasuke for example (uchihas in general) has the sharingan to literally memorizes then duplicate the opponents jutsu's PERFECTLY! Sasuke learned Chidori no diff at a young age just off vision and practice! Hiruzen has the vision down, and can practice.)
3. Now 1+2 equals???? Him being able to use them perfectly if not better! He has the chakra, affinities (Choji's clan expansion jutsu is a Yang release affinity for example), Vision to see it once and practice, villages history scrolls to read on etc etc. Why all the hate when it is literally that simple to learn and practice with what is available to him?

...........................

I don't know how many times I have to say this. Said this on the BM Naruto vs. EMS Sasuke thread multiple times yet you are still singing the same song. I NEVER ONCE SAID THAT EMS MADARA'S PS=EMS SASUKE'S.

How does sasuke PS compare then in your eyes? How could he replicate Madara's PS feast according to you then? I wanna see what you say this time...

 

[Draegod]

Gotta go back to bed, but saw this thread and had to reply lol
This is what ill say about Hiruzen.
If you notice, Tobirama and Hashirama like Hiruzen also got all the elements.

I believe hashirama's buddha can also produce the elements.
Now if you go back to hiruzen's feat agaisn't the SS you'll notice that he produced the exact same technique of each element to counter it.

We never got the names of the techniques, but i am certain due to the similarities it is obviously the same techniques of the SS and you have to wonder where he learnt them from, possibly from Hashirama.

Secondly, some of the suiton feats by Tobirama has been demonstrated by the likes of Kakashi/itachi/Darui. For me this is enough to say that Hiruzen should also know and can use the same suiton feats as Tobirama.

For example the (mass) kage bunshin was recorded in the scroll that Naruto stole and belonged to Hashirama.

We know that Minato copied Tobirama's hiraishin. That is enough to say that it was also recorded.

If i remember correctly Orochimaru also got his hands on edo tensei somehow.

So we know the brothers recorded their techniques, especially tobirama was seems to have created a fair few techniques in his time and tbh i have reached the conclusion that every technique tobirama has shown, he created lol.

You also have to wonder how the hokage's all know about the barrier technique they used agains't the juubi and can perform it. Gai also confirms that it is a technique that only those of hokage level can use.

Finally the gates techniques is a technique that i have believed came from konoha and its interesting how the likes of Madara and Minato also seem to know about it, but also so far all the users are konoha shinobi's.

For me these little hints, proves that there are techniques that are not kg's or hiden techniques that the clearly has been recorded and passed down. Some are at the hokage's office and others possible from the konoha library. In fact on wiki, it seems to reference the 4th DB which states that he indeed has knowledge and skill to produce the hiden techniques.

You must be registered for see links

Under the ninjutsu. The second link references the DB4 pages 170-171

This is a joke, but i am serious at the same time. Hiruzen uses the Tomegane technique to observe the village and he used this to track naruto and witnessed the beat down that naruto gave to that fodder when he used the mass kage bunshin. He may have used this technique to learn the hiden techniques of the clans lol

Just with the tomegane technique he could have learn't hiden techniques as he could have used it for spying purposes. Also he seems to be a willing learner of ninjutsu. Jiraiya's invisibility/camouflage technique that he was developing to spy on naked women. If i remember correctly Hiruzen wanted in on it. Perhaps for his own perverted use, or maybe because he believes a technique/idea that allows the user to turn invisible is interesting and may have corrected any weakness that the technique had, that jiraiya didn't see.


OT. Enma will curse the day he allowed hiruzen to form a contract with him, the day he fights an ems user and comes up agains't PS. No matter what hype Prime Hiruzen has, he is going to get a good beating agains't Sasuke.

Already stated what You stated bro.lol They are being to stubborn it's sad. It's funny how a lower level ninja can use the techs equal or better then who we seen use it first, but Hiruzen who in his prime with drasticly higher chakra and smarter cannot do the same. haha there Logic makes no sense and is clearly hate.

 

[Draegod]

I read it, and you're right, so I'll agree with him having all the Hiden Ninjutsu (good thing my arguments replied to them anyway) but definitely not things like Hiraishin.

SO he can Perfectly Use Reaper death seal like Minato, but Cannot use a tech that was invented by his Teacher who he was around almost all the time in WAR??? And the fact Minato taught it to his Students but Hiruzen cannot know it????????? #DATLOGIC

 

[Beans2]

SO he can Perfectly Use Reaper death seal like Minato, but Cannot use a tech that was invented by his Teacher who he was around almost all the time in WAR??? And the fact Minato taught it to his Students but Hiruzen cannot know it????????? #DATLOGIC

Because there were lots of instances in which Hiraishin would have been useful but Hiruzen didn't use it. So that's a technique he doesn't have.

 

[Kakooli]

Sasuke uses his Susanoo to grab Hiruzen in one hand and Enma in the other and proceeds to fly into space, before throwing them both into the sun.

 

[Draegod]

Haha okay.
But this doesn't prove that Hiruzen can use hiraishin/edo tensei or all of the hiden techniques.
His hype states that he also had knowledge on them and as the hokage you'd think he would. That doesn't necessarily mean that he could use it.

Also Orochimaru's Rashomon is another technique demonstrated by Hashirama.
Further implying that these techniques were recorded, though you have to ask how did oro get his hands on these information.

As The brothers student, taking into consideration his hype.
He should be able to produce most/all their ninjutsu. Excluding obviously hashirama's mokuton

Agreed, But Even with FTG; He taught his students how to use it, Hiruzens' teacher who wanted him to succeed him was the inventor, and Hiruzen has all 7 affinities. One can conclude based off hype he can use FTG. But I agree and see why no one wants to believe that even if it is implied, he would be "Godly" as a result. And no one likes a character to be godly if they dont like that character. lol

 

[Draegod]

Because there were lots of instances in which Hiraishin would have been useful but Hiruzen didn't use it. So that's a technique he doesn't have.

We are talking about hype not just feats. Read the thread if you dont mind pls.

 

[LuckyMan]

SO he can Perfectly Use Reaper death seal like Minato, but Cannot use a tech that was invented by his Teacher who he was around almost all the time in WAR??? And the fact Minato taught it to his Students but Hiruzen cannot know it????????? #DATLOGIC

I just had him in a qoute and was about to say something similar to this.

@Kidgamer,

you already acknowledged he can use hidden techniques as the DB says, so why is Hirashin an exception or Edo Tensei? The former is not hidden, Minato learned it then he taught it to 3 Jounin, who at that time (17 years ago) were 13 year old kids. The latter is also not hidden, Orochimaru learned it then taught it to Kabuto, shit even Madara knew the seals to it and could use it too and thats most likely from working close with Tobirama. Hiruzen was raised by Tobirama and his knowledge and ninjutsu mastery heavily reflects it so why wouldn't he know Hirashin?

 

[Beans2]

We are talking about hype not just feats. Read the thread if you dont mind pls.

I know. We're talking about both. But feats contradict the hype, and feats > hype, so no he can't use it.

 

[BlacLord™]

Nine pages for Hiruzen vs. EMS Sasuke... ...

Spoiler

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OT: EMS Sasuke low-diff. A "Prime" Hiruzen was said to be able to kill Part 1 Oro so please, just end the ludicrousness.

 

[Draegod]

I know. We're talking about both. But feats contradict the hype, and feats > hype, so no he can't use it.

You literally don't get it. This is all make believe fights that will never happen to begin with, and in this particular match up his manga and databook hype suggest and states he can use what is being discussed. Whether he used it in the manga doesn't matter when it's stated he can use it in this match up.

 

[KidGamer65]

FIrst off: What makes you say 3 Tomoe Genjutsu=Ms=EMS=ShaRinnegan???? DO I need to Go in detailed on how flawed that logic is?

If only I actually I said that. I said that all 3-Tomoe Genjutsu have been shown to be equal. All MS Genjutsu have been shown to be equal. All EMS Genjutsu have shown to be equal despite the user's chakra. Never once said that 3-T Genjutsu=MS Genjutsu=EMS Genjutsu=Rinne Sharingan Genjutsu...especially since I never once mentioned the last one.

Why wouldn't it be equal to the best user we have seen use it? When he literally is smarter then every single one of them one could argue and has/had more chakra by a landslide. Lets stop the hate for once in your life and use common since on this one.

This guy...arguing with you is a pain in the ass, mainly cause you don't read before you post. I never said that it would be below the clan's usage. I just said it won't be much much stronger like some have claimed. Please learn the difference and use common sense.

More chakra=/=Stronger Jutsu by the way.
Again, I'm trying to keep it simple and not go crazy with the manga plus databook facts to back me up. Let's stop being stubborn and use logic:

1. How do you learn anything in life? Vision! (he has the ability to see all clans and there practice!)

Seeing a jutsu=/=Learning how to use a jutsu. Reading the manga should be enough for you to know this.

2. You need chakra nature and Level to preform said jutsu correct? He has both Higher chakra and all 7 natures! (sasuke for example (uchihas in general) has the sharingan to literally memorizes then duplicate the opponents jutsu's PERFECTLY! Sasuke learned Chidori no diff at a young age just off vision and practice! Hiruzen has the vision down, and can practice.)

Lol, yeah, right. No diff my ass. Vision AND Practice, meaning it's not just practice. He had to have Kakashi teach it to him too.

3. Now 1+2 equals???? Him being able to use them perfectly if not better! He has the chakra, affinities (Choji's clan expansion jutsu is a Yang release affinity for example), Vision to see it once and practice, villages history scrolls to read on etc etc. Why all the hate when it is literally that simple to learn and practice with what is available to him?

Lol, I just said that he can use them, just that your logic is garbage. Once again, you aren't reading before replying. Seeing a Jutsu=/=Learning a Jutsu. That's all I said.

How does sasuke PS compare then in your eyes? How could he replicate Madara's PS feast according to you then? I wanna see what you say this time...

Being able to cut a Mountain=/=Equal with Madara's Susanoo. There is no significant gap in any of their Susanoo that'd lead me to believe it's so much weaker that it can't cut a Mountain. This ridiculously large gap in chakra strength between EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara is also something that you invented, cause as usual, no real evidence behind the claim.

Naruto and Sasuke's Avatars are equal at VoTE, scale that down and they are physical equals in EMS and BSM form. Naruto's Avatar at it's weakest is Mountain Level. Sasuke's PS is Mountain Level as well.

SO he can Perfectly Use Reaper death seal like Minato, but Cannot use a tech that was invented by his Teacher who he was around almost all the time in WAR??? And the fact Minato taught it to his Students but Hiruzen cannot know it????????? #DATLOGIC

@bold: Cause Minato taught him it, and I'm literally seeing no evidence that Tobirama taught Hiruzen Hiraishin, or that he learned it. Lol. All I'm seeing for Hiruzen knowing these jutsu are shitty generalizations with no real evidence behind them. Not even his hype states he can use them, as he was stated to know the Hiden Ninjutsu and Konoha's Ninjutsu. You guys are making ridiculous assumptions based on nothing, as to what exact jutsu are encompassed by the term "Konoha's Ninjutsu".

But regardless, I've already put up arguments for him being able to use Hiraishin and Edo Tensei and the like, so all this discussion on whether or not he can doesn't really matter to me.

Minato teaching his body guards Hiraishin=/=Tobirama teaching Hiruzen. Minato learning Hiraishin=/=Hiruzen learning Hiraishin.

 

[Blaze Release]

Agreed, But Even with FTG; He taught his students how to use it, Hiruzens' teacher who wanted him to succeed him was the inventor, and Hiruzen has all 7 affinities. One can conclude based off hype he can use FTG. But I agree and see why no one wants to believe that even if it is implied, he would be "Godly" as a result. And no one likes a character to be godly if they dont like that character. lol

Ok, ill going to bed straight after this now.

The problem with hiraishin/edo tensei as well as hidden techniques is that from my perspective the hype is vague.
It says knowledge and skill and i believe people are not reading it correctly. He will have knowledge, possibly on all the technique, but because the knowledge and skill used in one sentence it makes it as if he also had the skill to produce the techniques.

From my understanding. He had the knowledge of all the techniques.
The skill to use some of them, not all.

Minato produced his own hiraishin from the info that he got from Tobirama.
Same technique, but different seals. Also to make good use of hiraishin you'd have to possess exceptional reaction time and general speed that hiruzen even in his prime, but not he had.

As for Edo tensei, its a kinjutsu. Doubt hiruzen would ever use it or whether Tobirama would show him how to as he banned it

So these two technique are examples of techniques that he has knowledge on but i doubt he could (hiraishin) or would (edo tensei) use them

Another thing people have to remember about prime Hiruzen is that he isn't old hiruzen.
We accept this information when it comes to his combat feat (speed/chakra/strength) diminishing, but not take into account that whatever prime hiruzen was (possible 30's), he will NOT have the same ninjutsu mastery/knowledge as old hiruzen, who has roughly 30 years on prime hiruzen.

For example the shiki fujin was taught to him by Minato.
That is a technique that prime Hiruzen didn't have/didn't know about.

So we have to be careful when stating exactly what techniques prime hiruzen has because he could have easily mastered shit loads later on in life that he didn't have in his prime.

 

[LuckyMan]

For example the shiki fujin was taught to him by Minato.
That is a technique that prime Hiruzen didn't have/didn't know about.

So we have to be careful when stating exactly what techniques prime hiruzen has because he could have easily mastered shit loads later on in life that he didn't have in his prime.

That was an Uzumaki sealing jutsu that existed well before Minato was a competent shinobi and Minato taught it to Hiruzen? Lol

 

[Draegod]

Ok, ill going to bed straight after this now.

The problem with hiraishin/edo tensei as well as hidden techniques is that from my perspective the hype is vague.
It says knowledge and skill and i believe people are not reading it correctly. He will have knowledge, possibly on all the technique, but because the knowledge and skill used in one sentence it makes it as if he also had the skill to produce the techniques.

From my understanding. He had the knowledge of all the techniques.
The skill to use some of them, not all.

Minato produced his own hiraishin from the info that he got from Tobirama.
Same technique, but different seals. Also to make good use of hiraishin you'd have to possess exceptional reaction time and general speed that hiruzen even in his prime, but not he had.

As for Edo tensei, its a kinjutsu. Doubt hiruzen would ever use it or whether Tobirama would show him how to as he banned it

So these two technique are examples of techniques that he has knowledge on but i doubt he could (hiraishin) or would (edo tensei) use them

Another thing people have to remember about prime Hiruzen is that he isn't old hiruzen.
We accept this information when it comes to his combat feat (speed/chakra/strength) diminishing, but not take into account that whatever prime hiruzen was (possible 30's), he will NOT have the same ninjutsu mastery/knowledge as old hiruzen, who has roughly 30 years on prime hiruzen.

For example the shiki fujin was taught to him by Minato.
That is a technique that prime Hiruzen didn't have/didn't know about.

So we have to be careful when stating exactly what techniques prime hiruzen has because he could have easily mastered shit loads later on in life that he didn't have in his prime.

Lol get some rest, this is mere Childplay to us.

Ot: never spoke on edo tensei. He doesn't need nor will ever make human sacrifices for the Jutsu. Too evil for his taste.


how do we know minato taught him dead demon seal? We assume he did with zero proof! That right there debunked the thought of him teaching something that is a one time Jutsu. What would minato teach him he couldn't already learn by himself? Hand seals! It's simple to know which seals to use for a Jutsu in this case. Again, never stated minato specifically taught him the Jutsu in a crash course 101. Plus the fact minato learned it from his wife to begin with, add the fact even oru was able to read all the uzamaki scrolls and learn about getting his arms back from the demon seal. The point is knowledge goes a long way with skills and chakra which prime hiruzen def has over almost all konaha ninjas.

Ftg is easily below dead demon seal in the fact you cannot practice it ever! Ftg was literally taught to his students, why wouldn't he teach it to hiruzen if he so called taught hiruzen an even deadlier higher level Jutsu? Why wouldn't his master teach it to him? How could minato learn about ftg but not hiruzen? That is where the logic is flawed based on manga facts!


I'm on my phone to go into detail, but you get my drift bro. Not saying it would be exact minato a seal, but at the very least his masters we can assume. Abd again this is all just hype we are using so ofc we have no proof of him using what we are speaking on.

 

[AlphaMaleLion]

EMS Sasuke stomps Hiruzen so bad

 

[Bogard]

how do we know minato taught him dead demon seal? We assume he did with zero proof! That right there debunked the thought of him teaching something that is a one time Jutsu. What would minato teach him he couldn't already learn by himself? Hand seals! It's simple to know which seals to use for a Jutsu in this case. Again, never stated minato specifically taught him the Jutsu in a crash course 101. Plus the fact minato learned it from his wife to begin with, add the fact even oru was able to read all the uzamaki scrolls and learn about getting his arms back from the demon seal. The point is knowledge goes a long way with skills and chakra which prime hiruzen def has over almost all konaha ninjas.

Here:

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He was also inexperienced with it(not knowing how long it will take before the reaper could start the sealing):

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[Draegod]

Here:

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He was also inexperienced with it(not knowing how long it will take before the reaper could start the sealing):

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1. He never stated minato taught him something that can only be used once. He noted this is what the effects (seeing the demon) that they talked about. Again; minato never used it to know about only being able to see the demon. He for a fact was taught, told, or read on it himself to know about it. Since he for a fact wasn't first or last user. For example, if some one tells me about the effect if doing a suicide drug them selfs have never used, they can easily have read or had someone to tell that person the effects of this powerful drug that will kill you.

2. That makes no sense. Lmao it's a suicide tech that know one gas ever lived and survived. How can you be experienced? Think about what you just said..

You once thought minato defeated ever kage including hashirama (when i was the one who told you and the site hashirama was the best if all time before the war arc even started. Ofc you of all people would not want sarutobi and his hype to include minato a entire aresanal. Lol you still my guy, but it's as clear as day you're bias bro.