Hiruzen vs ems sasuke
- Thread starter NarutoKage2
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Lol at ninjutsu is as strong as its wielder claim. Hiruzen knew all Konoha jutsu. Knew is the key word, I know vaguely how the Carbon Cycle works, doesn't mean I'm as good as someone who specialises in that field of study. Saying Hiruzen>Shikamaru in shadow jutsu's is completely baseless and wrong, because Shikamaru specialises with this ninjutsu, Hiruzen does not. For all we know, Hiruzen was half-decent with every Konoha jutsu, bar the ones hes shown.
Every Ninjutsu power varies depending on the user. If you don't believe - read the Databooks.
Fodder Genjutsu? Requires no contact of any kind, can trap multiple foes simultanoeusly, kicks in immediately after weaving hand seals. Prime Hiruzen using it would be much more devastating than Kurenai. He could definitely stall Sasuke for a few seconds.
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TRE MERCER
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Hiruzen chakra was not hyped up at all he has that weak Sarutobi blood running through his veins.(Which isn't much). Even if it was better Sasuke still sees through it.
And? He sees through it but then has to break out of it. It's at least 2-3 seconds. Enough time for a clone to trap with Mind Transfer to stall him for another few seconds.
Kagemane catches him and it's game over.
TRE MERCER
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Not when he can throw up Susanoo. Plus do you even know how get Genjutsu works you said some none-sense like finder snaps or something.
Yes, depends on the user's chakra potency and skill with that specific jutsu. Sasuke's chakra is more powerful than Obito's after Rikudo power-up yet Obito's Katon is far stronger than his own. Your approach is wrong. Shikamaru is far more capable with Shadow jutsu, and you have yet to prove chakra potency holds any significance in its utilisation. Sasuke's chakra is more powerful than Itachi's yet Itachi's Genjutsu is better than Sasuke's. Genjutsu is not only chakra potency, its skill which Hiruzen does not have. Hence Kurenai's Genjutsu will not be amplified; if anything it will be watered down.
KidGamer65
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Hype from Databook 2? Cause 3 and 4 have gotten rid of that nonsense. Lol. Try again.
Uh, I'm definitely not seeing anything from you that'd make his usage of the Genjutsu "Much much" stronger.
Because it was a paralyzing Sound Genjutsu, enhanced by Senjutsu. Can't Genjutsu Kai when you are paralyzed. Let's not compare it to a B-Rank Genjutsu from Kurenai.
Can't restrain the user if he's inside a giant suit of armor made of chakra. Not to mention it doesn't need to block it, KCM Naruto shat on the shadows, Susanoo does the same thing. If you want to try and argue that Hiruzen's usage will be>>>>Nara Clan users (Lol) then I'll just tell you that Susanoo physical power>>>>>>>KCM Naruto's physical power.
I have no reason to believe Prime Hiruzen's Kagemane Jutsu will be so strong that it can hold Susanoo.
Susanoo breaks Kagemane with no effort, and then Sasuke breaks Mind Transfer just like Obito did, with minimal effort instead of no effort, since Hiruzen's usage might be above Ino's, and then Susanoo bisects him.
Even then, about this Ninjutsu power BS. Read Apex's posts. Nothing else needs to be said.
Was there anything in DB 3 and 4 about Hiruzen not being the strongest kage?
So you want to tell me that the strongest kage with 5 points in Genjutsu just like Kurenai wouldn't have the same Genjutsu stronger than some fresh Jounin? Please.
Do you even know what ranks mean? Let me enlighten you. Ranks mean how hard it is to learn a jutsu, not how strong it is. Not to mention that Mugen Onsa is B-rank as well.
And why is that? Air goes through Susano'o so shadows do go as well. He will simply use Kagemane to trap Sasuke, not Sasuke with Susano'o. Hiruzen doesn't need stronger will. He simply needs to trap Sasuke and twist his neck.
Mind Transfer for 2 seconds is enough for Hiruzen's clone to gouge Sasuke's eyes or do anything he pleases.
Of course it isn't. Orochimaru's ET binding power increased after possessing Hashi DNA body. His snakes' size increased several times. Databook states that even the lowest rank jutsu' power depends on the users strength. It's more than obvious that Hiruzen's Demonic Illusion >>>> Kurenai's Demonic Illusion, especially that they are equally skilled in Genjutsu.
KidGamer65
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Nothing stated he was, and instead stated that Hashirama was "unsurpassed". Pretty clear that he's not the best.
Except Hiruzen isn't the strongest kage, not by hype or by feats.
Lol, if Fresh Jonin is your only counter argument, there is nothing more to say here.
My point is, there is literally nothing about the Jutsu, rank or strength that'd imply it's on Mugen Onsa's level, especially when amped by Senjutsu. Hiruzen being Hiruzen is literally your only argument for the comparison, and that in itself isn't a real argument.
Shikamaru's Shadow=/=Air. Shikamaru's Shadows aren't going to pass through Susanoo's body and go up to where Sasuke is, no reason to believe it can. Maybe if we were talking through the ground, but Susanoo has legs, so that's not happening either. Shadows existing on the inside of Susanoo doesn't mean that Shikamaru's Shadows have the capability to pass through a solid substance and then connect with the shadows inside.
Not to mention I've seen no user of Susanoo cast any kind of Shadow while in their full bodied variants.
Then there's also the fact that his Shadows have a range, and Sasuke's stands tall upon Susanoo. If using PS, he's out of the Shadow's Range.
Irrelevant if he traps Sasuke or the Susanoo, cause Sasuke can call Susanoo regardless to break out. Danzo's Curse Seal targeted Sasuke, didn't change the fact that Susanoo broke him out of it.
Obito broke it in an instant. There is no 2 second hold here.
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Ok? Orochimaru's binding power increasing after getting his own chakra boosted with Hashirama's own chakra has pretty much nothing to do with Hiruzen's Demonic Illusion being MUCH stronger than Kurenai's, which is based off of nothing but "Hurr durr strongest Kage" "Hurr durr fresh Jonin"
Also, proof of this increase in his snake hands?
KidGamer65
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Madara's Chakra>Itachi and Sasuke's chakra in strength and quantity, but when it comes to their basic 3-Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu, there is literally no noticeable difference.
Obito's Chakra>Kakashi's Chakra, yet they stalemated in a Genjutsu Battle.
Obito's Chakra>Kakashi's Chakra, yet they stalemated in a Genjutsu Battle.
Hashirama was unsurpassed kage? And? The same 4th databook says Kakashi became Hokage because of his charisma, not power. Going by hype, Hashirama being an unsurpassed kage doesn't mean he was the strongest one. Prime Hiruzen was and that's what counts in this thread.
By hype he is.
Fresh, average Jounin. Kurenai is nothing compared to Hype Prime Hiruzen.
Prime Hiruzen being the strongest kage ever obivously has much more potent chakra than Kurenai. Itachi was caught by Kurenai whether you like or not. Obviously he could've broken out instead of reversing it, but it doesn't change the fact that he was caught. And that he spent a few seconds in her Genjutsu. Sasuke cannot reverse anything, so whether you like or not he will be caught in it. And he will have to spend time releasing it.
Is there any scan where someone in Susano'o doesn't cast shadow while characters not in Susano'o do? Most likely it's just Kishimoto not paying attention to drawing shadows at all. Not to mention that there's no reason shadows shouldn't go past Susano'o, since they are not even physical. They are merely optical images people see thanks to lack of light. Being able to artifically extend something like that doesn't change its properties.
If he's close enough, the range should be sufficient. OP didn't specify starting distance doe, but clones and Hiruzen can still use FTG to close the distance.
It was an outburst of emotions that freed him. If it was just Susano'o, he would've broken out right after he got caught. Hiruzen isn't going to be talking about Itachi here, so magical plot escapes aren't possible.
Of course it does. Hiruzen being stronger than any other Kage, including Hashirama has WAY MORE potent chakra than Kurenai. He also has the same score at Genjutsu.
The shadow snake hands he used against Holy Tree Branch were a few times human size. Much bigger than anything he's ever shown. It's clear that it's thanks to Hashi DNA, especially that we've seen in manga that pouring more chakra into summonned snakes increases their size and power.
Also, Sasuke has no counter to clones barraging him with interrupts and disables. Demonic Illusion, Mind Switch, Bringer of Darkness, Kagemane etc. Even if Sasuke can dispel/break out of any of these in 1-2 seconds, he's getting gang banged by another one instantly. You're underrating clones' ability to use jutsu
NarutoKage2
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Well this thread certainly spiralled, 5 pages clearly other people had my same idea of hiruzen being underrated.
Hiruzen wasnt sitting his ass at home, he was the longest reigning hokage, the uchiha massacre happened during his reign. He was stated to personally know shisui and he ordered itachi during that massacre, both of whom had the mangekyuo. And you say he knows nothing about uchiha, how the sharingan works or the mangekyuo? Even when it was the 3rd himself who delegated danzo as head of root, who had a dozen sharingan, including shisuis eye? Are you retarded?
He HAD to have known about the MS, otherwise danzo, who desperately wanted to become hokage, could have just used shisuis eye on him to take over.
-Wasnt hiruzen a student of tobirama, guess what teachers teach their students! It would be stupid to assume tobirama didnt tell him, his self appointed successor as hokage, everything about the clan he considered a threat.
-Didnt hiruzen state about itachis thinking being like a hokage at a young age? What does that tell you? That he monitored itachi, and his progress as a shinobi. So yes I will assume he knows about the mangekyuo, the awakening of which was also a progress of itachi.
I have no idea what your definition of a 'fodder' technique is, nor do I care. The 2nds suitons were canonically stated to be high ranked, so they are. Manga>>>>> your assumptions.
So basically your only counter is that sasuke has susanoo, so he stomps hiruzen using that? Ok ill focus exclusively on the armor then:
-Ps slashes? Since when does sasuke get madaras feats with susano? Gtfo. And even iF he could, how the fck is sasuke going to even know there is a ceremonial throne, hed be trapped in darkness.
If your going to argue that the sharingan sees through this genjutsu, hiruzen can push back sasukes susanoo, the same way he canonically pushe back the kyuubi when it attacked konoha (back in chap502 or 503, cant post links atm).
-Also, ANY jutsu in the leaf (non kkg) includes gais gates attacks. The afternoon tiger pushed back madaras susanoo, and he was next shown w.o it. So hiruzen uses the same, then hiraishin plus enma staff to behead sasuke. The staff tore apart the god tree branch, god tree branch endurance>>> sasukes neck. Also, theres no way a tech (the afternoon tiger) that stopped madars susanoo isnt stopping sasukes.
-Another counter to susanoo is hiruzen using edo tensei, (invented by the 2nd hokage, a jutsu of the leaf village) to revive edo madara and have him crush sasuke lol.
Not that hiruzen even needs to go that far. Hiraishin, gates attacks and a few basic fuuinjutsu will be more than enough to kill sasuke.
Ghost transformation is a damn good way to stop sasuke, theres no proof whatsoever that susanoo can block out a spirit, your counter to the other guy of blocking it out doesnt even make sense.
Hiruzen wasnt sitting his ass at home, he was the longest reigning hokage, the uchiha massacre happened during his reign. He was stated to personally know shisui and he ordered itachi during that massacre, both of whom had the mangekyuo. And you say he knows nothing about uchiha, how the sharingan works or the mangekyuo? Even when it was the 3rd himself who delegated danzo as head of root, who had a dozen sharingan, including shisuis eye? Are you retarded?
He HAD to have known about the MS, otherwise danzo, who desperately wanted to become hokage, could have just used shisuis eye on him to take over.
-Wasnt hiruzen a student of tobirama, guess what teachers teach their students! It would be stupid to assume tobirama didnt tell him, his self appointed successor as hokage, everything about the clan he considered a threat.
-Didnt hiruzen state about itachis thinking being like a hokage at a young age? What does that tell you? That he monitored itachi, and his progress as a shinobi. So yes I will assume he knows about the mangekyuo, the awakening of which was also a progress of itachi.
I have no idea what your definition of a 'fodder' technique is, nor do I care. The 2nds suitons were canonically stated to be high ranked, so they are. Manga>>>>> your assumptions.
So basically your only counter is that sasuke has susanoo, so he stomps hiruzen using that? Ok ill focus exclusively on the armor then:
-Ps slashes? Since when does sasuke get madaras feats with susano? Gtfo. And even iF he could, how the fck is sasuke going to even know there is a ceremonial throne, hed be trapped in darkness.
If your going to argue that the sharingan sees through this genjutsu, hiruzen can push back sasukes susanoo, the same way he canonically pushe back the kyuubi when it attacked konoha (back in chap502 or 503, cant post links atm).
-Also, ANY jutsu in the leaf (non kkg) includes gais gates attacks. The afternoon tiger pushed back madaras susanoo, and he was next shown w.o it. So hiruzen uses the same, then hiraishin plus enma staff to behead sasuke. The staff tore apart the god tree branch, god tree branch endurance>>> sasukes neck. Also, theres no way a tech (the afternoon tiger) that stopped madars susanoo isnt stopping sasukes.
-Another counter to susanoo is hiruzen using edo tensei, (invented by the 2nd hokage, a jutsu of the leaf village) to revive edo madara and have him crush sasuke lol.
Not that hiruzen even needs to go that far. Hiraishin, gates attacks and a few basic fuuinjutsu will be more than enough to kill sasuke.
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