Hiruzen > Hashirama Proof!

[randomuno]

I am very open-minded, so please come up with contrary evidence, and I am willing to change my opinion.

Also, I am not a Hashi hater. Check the spoiler for what I have to say about Hashirama:

Spoiler

Hashirama was indeed VERY VERY great. He had two unique abilities:

1) Ability to restrain tailed beasts - this one helped him establish balance between villages and end war.
2) He was able to create forests. He was a pro-environment man. Wish we had a Hashirama in real-world.

Hashi probably did more service to the world than ALL THE OTHER KAGES combined

However, does that make him the strongest? Manga says no.

To me, Manga says that Hiruzen > Hashirama. Proof below:

1) Iruka calls Hiruzen the greatest hokage

Spoiler

Madara probably only knew Hiruzen as a child. Hiruzen probably grew leaps and bounds after that. If Orochimaru/Asuma comes back as Edo-Tensei; he will find it hard to believe that Naruto has outgrown Jiraiya. Similarly, Madara has no means to know what happened after his death. If Orochimaru is resurrected after 50 years, he will see Konohamaru as a kid. Does that mean that Konohamaru wouldn't have surpassed Orochimaru?
Why should I take Madara's opinion seriously, when he never knew Hiruzen in his prime?
If I resurrect Alfred Nobel [and if he were as arrogant as Madara], he will naturally talk about the glories of Dynamite; unless he is educated about the nuclear bomb and thermonuclear bomb.
Why should I trust Madara's outdated info over the info passed by someone who was appointed by Konoha village; as a teacher of Ninja history? Democritus is greater in stature a professor in a university. But Democritus resurrected would be under the impression that atoms are indivisible; when we know about sub-atomic particles today. Does that mean that my teacher who is like "random fodder" is wrong; and Democritus, who is like Madara of chemistry, right?

2) Hiruzen was able to fight Hashirama, Tobirama [both with INFINITE ****ing chakra] AND orochimaru; when he wasn't even in PRIME. Madara who is weaker than Hashirama; is able to solo 5 kages. And Hiruzen alone was stronger than Madara. If Hiruzen fought non-edo Hashi at prime; he would have probably killed Hashi while reading "Icha Icha tactics".
How is Edo-Shodaime; with infinite chakra weaker than Shodaime in life?
Where does it say that Orochimaru's Edo was weaker?

3) Official databook says Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama

Spoiler

Why should I trust Madara's opinion over the official databook which SAYS that Hiruzen is the strongest; and Iruka through manga also said that. Refer to First Databook, pages 117 and 265

4) Kakuzu survived Hashirama encounter
5) Hashirama was killed by random ninja

I am also going to go ahead and refute your evidence before you present it
a) Madara's claim that Hashirama was/is the only one who can stop him should not be taken seriously. Why? See spoiler.

Also, another important point - just because Hashirama was able to restrain Kyubi easily, it doesn't make him the strongest. Why? See spoiler.

Spoiler

When it comes to restraining Kyubii alone, Tenzo/Yamato can do a better job than Jiraiya. But J-man will probably solo 10 ninja of Yamato's calibre.

So Hiruzen >>> Hashirama.

 

[gordo1]

The power layout was different in part one than it is in part two.

 

[SoulHunt3r]

You did not even post one evidence to prove me wrong.

i am not saying you are wrong i am saiyng you will start a flame war .

and there are over 100 threads like this.

 

[Netsui]

... Does it matter who survived, and who killed him? We don't even know how he exactly died. We know he died in the war, he could have easily ran out of chakra.

Now back to what I always say. Does it matter? No. Why doesn't it matter? It doesn't matter because Naruto will most likely surpass both them, and then there would be no more arguments over who is stronger.

Not to mention, this thread has been made many times before. Some with pages, some with the actual databook. It really does not matter which one is stronger, because Hiruzen might not even appear in the series again (not counting flashbacks). We'll most likely only see those two Hokages in flashbacks only because they were sealed, and it doesn't seem like they can be unsealed, yet.

 

[Narutohokage7]

Actually we can never know who would win in a fight between the two as Hashi may be able to exploit Hizurens weaknesses same for the other way round granted but we still do not know.

 

[randomuno]

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abandon thread

Why man? I am posting so many pieces of evidence. Am I doing something wrong?

Post some evidence or don't post at all.

 

[randomuno]

The power layout was different in part one than it is in part two.

What does this mean?

 

[DracoHazel]

1. Iruka, a fodder called him the best hokage...Madara, one of the main villain called Hashi the best shinobi.
2. Edo, but not using its full power.
3. Where???!
4. Hashi didn't like to finish off someone, he a cool man, a Hokage.
5. Please state.

 

[randomuno]

GTFO, seriously, no one gives a shit about hiru>hashi, this thread has been made over 1,000 times and no one wants to hear about it anymore. If we just all tell you you're write will you promise to never bring this up again.

Why so angry? Did I abuse anyone? Was I harsh? Can you not explain to me? If you prove me wrong, I will gladly take home a more enlightened opinion.

Also, why will I bring it up again if I stand corrected and better-informed?

 

[Paintachi]

I am very open-minded, so please come up with contrary evidence, and I am willing to change my opinion.

To me, Manga says that Hiruzen > Hashirama. Proof below:

1) Iruka calls Hiruzen the greatest hokage
2) Hiruzen was able to fight Hashirama, Tobirama [both with INFINITE ****ing chakra] AND orochimaru; when he wasn't even in PRIME. Madara who is weaker than Hashirama; is able to solo 5 kages. And Hiruzen alone was stronger than Madara. If Hiruzen fought non-edo Hashi at prime; he would have probably killed Hashi while reading "Icha Icha tactics".
3) Official databook says Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama
4) Kakuzu survived Hashirama encounter
5) Hashirama was killed by random ninja

I am also going to go ahead and refute your evidence before you present it
a) Madara's claim that Hashirama was/is the only one who can stop him should not be taken seriously. Why? See spoiler.

Spoiler

Madara probably only knew Hiruzen as a child. Hiruzen probably grew leaps and bounds after that. If Orochimaru/Asuma comes back as Edo-Tensei; he will find it hard to believe that Naruto has outgrown Jiraiya. Similarly, Madara has no means to know what happened after his death. If Orochimaru is resurrected after 50 years, he will see Konohamaru as a kid. Does that mean that Konohamaru wouldn't have surpassed Orochimaru?

Also, another important point - just because Hashirama was able to restrain Kyubi easily, it doesn't make him the strongest. Why? See spoiler.

Spoiler

When it comes to restraining Kyubii alone, Tenzo/Yamato can do a better job than Jiraiya. But J-man will probably solo 10 ninja of Yamato's calibre.

So Hiruzen >>> Hashirama.

Some nices hype facts about Hiruzen +rep:ice: for that but i really think you can't compare those two we can only lean on the Hype of kishi not on facts and jutus power. thats all i can say U_U

 

[randomuno]

1. Iruka, a fodder called him the best hokage...Madara, one of the main villain called Hashi the best shinobi.

Madara wasn't even alive to see Hiruzen grow into a fine shinobi. If we Edo-tensei Orochimaru; they will likely claim that Kakashi > Naruto. But we know that Naruto >>> Kakashi.

2. Edo, but not using its full power.

Where does it say that he did not use full-power? Why would Orochimaru not force Hashi to use full powers?

 

[AP2k]

Why so angry? Did I abuse anyone? Was I harsh? Can you not explain to me? If you prove me wrong, I will gladly take home a more enlightened opinion.

Also, why will I bring it up again if I stand corrected and better-informed?

It doesnt matter which one is stronger, there are aproximatly eleventy billion arguments for both sides and no one cares anymore. This whole discussion has been had over and over and over and over an over.

 

[randomuno]

Some nices hype facts about Hiruzen +rep:ice: for that but i really think you can't compare those two we can only lean on the Hype of kishi not on facts and jutus power. thats all i can say U_U

Thanks man for the rep. Probably the first person to rep me. Thanks a lot!

Are you saying that Hashirama and Hiruzen cannot be compared? Or are you saying that Hashi > Hiruzen. I am not able to understand what you mean by hype.

 

[Netsui]

Why so angry? Did I abuse anyone? Was I harsh? Can you not explain to me? If you prove me wrong, I will gladly take home a more enlightened opinion.

Also, why will I bring it up again if I stand corrected and better-informed?

We try not to have repeated threads, which is why there is a Search Bar, and whenever you make the title why it brings up similar titles. Especially threads that causes a flame war. This type of thread always causes a fan war because of the Hiruzen>Hashi people, and the Hashi>Hiruzen people. They try to prove each other wrong.

And you're not the first person to make this thread. There were threads that contained the scans, the databooks, and what the databook said about Hiruzen. You will not end this debate.

Like I said earlier, it does not matter. There will be a Hokage that will surpass both of them (Most likely Naruto), and then it wouldn't matter which one of them were stronger.

 

[randomuno]

It doesnt matter which one is stronger, there are aproximatly eleventy billion arguments for both sides and no one cares anymore. This whole discussion has been had over and over and over and over an over.

To me it matters, because I want to know who is the strongest. To me, Hiruzen is. Please post some arguments out of the eleventy billion arguments, to show that Hashi is stronger.

 

[twwial]

I agree, but the fanboys will never accept it, even if Kishi would say it at the beginning of a chapter. All in all your thread is great and you brought good proofs

 

[AP2k]

To me it matters, because I want to know who is the strongest. To me, Hiruzen is. Please post some arguments out of the eleventy billion arguments, to show that Hashi is stronger.

Please use the god damn search bar.

Hashi beat madara
Hashi beat the fox
Hashi creates konaha
Madara said he was the strongest, and madara clearly knows more ten some dumbass chunin
Hashi is a senju
Wood release
Body of the sage
Sealing powers
And i swear to god if one more child brings up those easy mode edos that oro summoned and try and use it as an argument i will lose my faith in humanity.

 

[prometheus]

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Thanks for that
1) Iruka?? Iru-****ing-ka,
A chuunin who would have probably have lost to episode 3 naruto, You are kidding me. Iruka grew up in the time of sarutobi and wouldnt have seen hashirama or tobirama so what he says cannot be admissible.
The power levels of Hashirama and Madara were probably never spoken of after the battle because it may have spurred people to seek too much power
Also Sarutobi was the longest serving Hokage

2) the third held up against the 2nd and 1st
If the fight was in his prime he would have died #fact

3)official data handbook does not take into consideration madara respect for hashirama in the Great shinobi war arc

4) So you want to tell me the 3rd killed everyone he fought

5)hiruzen was killed b a ninja who was soloed by a 16 year old
sick uchiha

You fail so badly

 

[Arbalest]

I am very open-minded, so please come up with contrary evidence, and I am willing to change my opinion.

To me, Manga says that Hiruzen > Hashirama. Proof below:

1) Iruka calls Hiruzen the greatest hokage
2) Hiruzen was able to fight Hashirama, Tobirama [both with INFINITE ****ing chakra] AND orochimaru; when he wasn't even in PRIME. Madara who is weaker than Hashirama; is able to solo 5 kages. And Hiruzen alone was stronger than Madara. If Hiruzen fought non-edo Hashi at prime; he would have probably killed Hashi while reading "Icha Icha tactics".
3) Official databook says Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama
4) Kakuzu survived Hashirama encounter
5) Hashirama was killed by random ninja

I am also going to go ahead and refute your evidence before you present it
a) Madara's claim that Hashirama was/is the only one who can stop him should not be taken seriously. Why? See spoiler.

Spoiler

Madara probably only knew Hiruzen as a child. Hiruzen probably grew leaps and bounds after that. If Orochimaru/Asuma comes back as Edo-Tensei; he will find it hard to believe that Naruto has outgrown Jiraiya. Similarly, Madara has no means to know what happened after his death. If Orochimaru is resurrected after 50 years, he will see Konohamaru as a kid. Does that mean that Konohamaru wouldn't have surpassed Orochimaru?

Also, another important point - just because Hashirama was able to restrain Kyubi easily, it doesn't make him the strongest. Why? See spoiler.

Spoiler

When it comes to restraining Kyubii alone, Tenzo/Yamato can do a better job than Jiraiya. But J-man will probably solo 10 ninja of Yamato's calibre.

So Hiruzen >>> Hashirama.

OK for one why wouldn't Iruka of all ppl call Hiruzen the greatest hokage he was like a father to him..that aside he CALLED him the greatest hokage doesn't mean he is it's his opinion and as well as others such as yourself..

Also when hiruzen fought hashi and tobirama as well as oro the edo tensei wasn't perfected which means that they weren't-1. in control of themselves 2.at full power 3. oro controlled two kages powers that he had no idea how to even use..thus rendered ineffective...and lastly 4. YOUR AN IDIOT!!:flaw:

 

[-Logic-]

No dude. When are these Hiruzen fanboys gonna learn? You're posting outdated information. It's like me saying that Neji > Naruto on the basis that he beat him in part 1. Also, Hashirama and Tobirama weren't at full power. Proof; Chiyo stated that this version of Edo Tensei (Kabuto's) had been perfected far beyond the Second Hokage's and Orochimaru's so it's logical to assume that they weren't at full power back then. Anyways, Hashirama > Hiruzen on the basis that he solo'd a ****ing Bijuu and the most powerful Shinobi after him in a one on one. If you disagree then go away.