Hiruzen (god debate)

[TheDragonSage]

This is a dumb question. The first hokage was a lot stronger then the third, he had the ability to control tailed beast. Enough saidshodaimeicon:

 

[Madara mhm]

He was Called a "God of Shinobi" Due to his sheer skill and power and the amount's of techniques he knew / learnt. idk. for example he is a master in most likely every element,

 

[Son of God]

Dans statement only says that the only person HE KNOWS that can beat Madara is hashirama


I've brought this up time and time again as why that statement says nothing.... Hashirama and Madara fought each other what? hundreds of times on the battlfield? They know each other like the back of their hands.. they know how the other fights, they have counters for each other's jutsu, ETC

Hypothetically let's say
Gai > Kisame..(Gai can beat kisame)
Kisame > Kakashi ( Kisame can beat Kakashi)

DOES that mean Gai is stronger than Kakashi? NO, this isn't dbz..
fights in naruto revolves around many aspects..
like in that fight gai was a taijutsu user..

Knowledge of the opponents justu is a huge factor .... He not only has knowledge but counters and experience fighting him.. something NO other ninja alive would have.. or dead...

Just because hashirama and Madara are direct counters for each other, and Hashirama can beat Madara, doesn't mean that Noone else can defeat Madara...

And also , dan's statement about "ONLY" would be for the people he's known... he died at what 26 or 27? he doesn't know kabuto, or nagato etc..
he doesn't know these people who would rape madara..

I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of that dude's statements.
Anyway, manga statements place Minato as unrivaled as well. I think on a manga cover - outside of character bias. :/ Maybe I'm wrong

 

[Thewargoeson]

First, you do not have enough information on hiruzen to say it was pure talent. Hashirama cells are wanted not only because of the KG. They empower other jusus such KA, izanagi and probably izanami. They can surpress bijuus chakra, empower one´s physical strength and can make one immortal (as hinted by tsunade). She said something along the lines tobi might be immortal if he does have access to hashi cells. And i have not touched the fact that he was the most powerful shinobi during the war time and beat madara + kyuubi. Now please tell me what is hiruzen prime and power. Besides the "knowing all existing jutsus" power because even kakashi knows a 1000 and he is not top 10 imo.

ur right i dnt. but he has never shown a KG so im assuming tht it took talent talent to learn all konoha ninjutsu
all those abilites come from hashi's KG. thts why people wanted them.
never saw it make someone physically stronger (by tht i mean it doesnt make someone hit harder)
ik he was during tht time. hiruzen is after tht.

 

[ANBU Kakashi23]

He was known as the professor his whole life and as we know he never stopped learning ninjutsu (rds). as i said in the thread, "he can use all existing konoha ninjutsu except for KG (blood line limits).
and raikiri isnt a KG its a jst a lightning technique

as he got older he wouldnt have the chakra levels to continue learning all ninjutsu being developed in konoha, but he may well have had in depth knowledge of them

the bold is just false, he was called that after he mastered all konoha's jutsu

him being the god of shinobi is in reference to a specific time when he was known to have mastered all jutsu in konoha, but people seem to think that this occured during the time line we know, hiruzen prime was 30 years before the fox even showed up, thats a completely different generation, so when i reference raikiri im not saying its a kg im saying it didnt exist during his prime and the jutsus he knew besides those from the 4 noble clans that we are familiar with would be unknown to us since weve only seen him fight at 69 and 57 with limited chakra stores :|

 

[Thewargoeson]

No way, he can't PERFORM Edo or FTG, but he is aware of them. I doubt he could do Rasengan either. Since you're so fixed on taking manga quotes as the final word, I'm sure you remember Tsunade talking to Jiraiya and asking him whether he's trying to teach naruto the rasengan. She then states that ONLY HE AND THE FOURTH HOKAGE CAN USE IT. I can't be bothered to dig this page out in the manga. But this was when she challenges Naruto to a fight when they meet for the first time.
SO THERE.

how wud she know? jst out of curiousity how wud jiraiya even know?
i doubt the 4th told them every last thing him and the hiruzen exchanged.
like they didnt know he knew RDS

 

[Nadruto]

All I see in this thread is a bunch of ignorant people who denies the facts stated in the manga, databooks, and that even has been stated by Kishimoto himself in an interview. Ofcourse you are all free to ignore facts stated by the creator of the Naruto series, but it is him that is correct, not you. In other words, Hiruzen was a god of shinobi in his prime, he knew and could use all of the existing jutsus in Konoha, and he is the strongest dead ninja in the series (on par with Minato) according to Kishimoto himself. Debate this all you want, this is the fact stated by Kishimoto, and therefore is correct.

 

[Thewargoeson]

as he got older he wouldnt have the chakra levels to continue learning all ninjutsu being developed in konoha, but he may well have had in depth knowledge of them

the bold is just false, he was called that after he mastered all konoha's jutsu

him being the god of shinobi is in reference to a specific time when he was known to have mastered all jutsu in konoha, but people seem to think that this occured during the time line we know, hiruzen prime was 30 years before the fox even showed up, thats a completely different generation, so when i reference raikiri im not saying its a kg im saying it didnt exist during his prime and the jutsus he knew besides those from the 4 noble clans that we are familiar with would be unknown to us since weve only seen him fight at 69 and 57 with limited chakra stores :|

ok when i said his whole life, i thot it was implied after tht but ok.
who says he didnt have the chakra levels to learn a technique?
he cud have very well learned raikiri but choose not to use it bcuz of the drain on his chakra.
lack of chakra (depending on the technique) doesnt stop one from learning the technique itself. but it may inhibit his ability to use them anytime

 

[Son of God]

All I see in this thread is a bunch of ignorant people who denies the facts stated in the manga, databooks, and that even has been stated by Kishimoto himself in an interview. Ofcourse you are all free to ignore facts stated by the creator of the Naruto series, but it is him that is correct, not you. In other words, Hiruzen was a god of shinobi in his prime, he knew and could use all of the existing jutsus in Konoha, and he is the strongest dead ninja in the series (on par with Minato) according to Kishimoto himself. Debate this all you want, this is the fact stated by Kishimoto, and therefore is correct.

My favorite troll is back! <3

 

[Virus..]

OMg not this again this was already made stop same threads just a diffrent day

 

[ANBU Kakashi23]

ok when i said his whole life, i thot it was implied after tht but ok.
who says he didnt have the chakra levels to learn a technique?
he cud have very well learned raikiri but choose not to use it bcuz of the drain on his chakra.
lack of chakra (depending on the technique) doesnt stop one from learning the technique itself. but it may inhibit his ability to use them anytime

learning a technique , attempting and failing and adjusting and trying again to master it, takes time and energy, time and energy i doubt he would be devoting in his 50's and 60's, youre folly if youre assuming he continued the same manner of learning and training from his prime well into his old age, namely mastering all the jutsu in konoha, there was a reason he stepped down as hokage

 

[Nadruto]

My favorite troll is back! <3

Except from one thing, I am not trolling!

 

[Doryudan]

Hiruzen is no god in my opinion. Hashirama and SO6P are.

2 people have been referenced as either the "God of Shinobi" or "a Shinobi God."

That's the sage of the six paths, and Hiruzen. Not SO6P and Hashirama. Not SO6P and Madara.. Just little ole Hiruzen.

 

[Doryudan]

Hiruzen could have been in par with Tobirama, but I don't think with Hashirama. Hokages are strong, but non have been seen doing what Hashirama did. Maybe Orochimaru was trying to make Hiruzen doubt himself. That can make you weak during battle(not physically).

Seriously? Dude makes a bunch of trees come up out the ground and you think he's good?

16 y/o Hiruzen gets handed the reigns to Konoha by Tobirama, no Bijuu, no crazy Kekkai.. Just given the title of Hokage. And rocks it until he's 90 years old. Hands down, the single greatest Shinobi to be shown in the series is Hiruzen. SO6P not included due to the fact that he's on a completely different level.. He CREATED the Ninja world.

Now back to this point. Hiruzen's the only other person referenced as a shinobi God. SO6P = Actual creator of the ninja world. Hiruzen = The regular guy who shocked the world with his awesomeness. No trees involved.

 

[Sonin]

All I see in this thread is a bunch of ignorant people who denies the facts stated in the manga, databooks, and that even has been stated by Kishimoto himself in an interview. Ofcourse you are all free to ignore facts stated by the creator of the Naruto series, but it is him that is correct, not you. In other words, Hiruzen was a god of shinobi in his prime, he knew and could use all of the existing jutsus in Konoha, and he is the strongest dead ninja in the series (on par with Minato) according to Kishimoto himself. Debate this all you want, this is the fact stated by Kishimoto, and therefore is correct.

Okay consider what i have to say. This (God or 3rd hokage) was Called a god in a seemingly mocking tone to me by Orochimaru; and if even not a mocking tone think about Orochimaru for a second.... What did he value?? Ninjutsu... What did Sarutobi know ALOT of... Ninjutsu... I am not undertoning him as a Hokage but he was not a GOD nor did at this time orochimaru know too much about the other wonders(sage modes/ power of sage/ power of sharringan) So maybe.. JUST MAYBE orochimaru was saying it as in a idealistic way... Just saying

Point being, Maybe the author used this to create CHARACTER of orochimaru? Possibility? i think so.

 

[ReapTermin]

2 people have been referenced as either the "God of Shinobi" or "a Shinobi God."

That's the sage of the six paths, and Hiruzen. Not SO6P and Hashirama. Not SO6P and Madara.. Just little ole Hiruzen.

Fighting me with your theories is not going to work.

Seriously? Dude makes a bunch of trees come up out the ground and you think he's good?

16 y/o Hiruzen gets handed the reigns to Konoha by Tobirama, no Bijuu, no crazy Kekkai.. Just given the title of Hokage. And rocks it until he's 90 years old. Hands down, the single greatest Shinobi to be shown in the series is Hiruzen. SO6P not included due to the fact that he's on a completely different level.. He CREATED the Ninja world.

Now back to this point. Hiruzen's the only other person referenced as a shinobi God. SO6P = Actual creator of the ninja world. Hiruzen = The regular guy who shocked the world with his awesomeness. No trees involved.

Another theory. Fighting me with your theories will not work.

 

[0moi]

....why make another thread and 1 has already been made on this exact subject smh

 

[gazmatic]

/sigh what part don't you get, by the whole leaf village praised him as the strongest of all the hokage? god of shinobi , and called him professor?


In the leaf village there are ninja who are as old as danzo, there are non ninja , aka normal folks, like sasuke's grandmother etc.. who were aas old as danzo, and would have seen and known hashi and tobirama....
Tsunade was a little kid, and knew of his powers..

Minato came LONG after tobirama and knew of his powers
You honestly have no point what so ever

Hiruzen is a man trained by BOTH hashirama and tobirama ,
someone that though was in his teens.... Tobirama saw strong enough to be the Hokage...




As an excuse? what??? it's kishi who wrote the manga not me

It's kishi who told us his strength was decreased due to old age, so much that he had trouble holding enma... That his entire fighting was off and it was nothing like him
That his chakra levels decreased so much he couldn't use high level jutsu
That his movements were all sluggish
Panting for breath etc..

I didn't want to enter into the fray because people who underrate hiruzen are obviously idiots... I've read all the posts up until this one... OK. The people out there who underrate hiruzen are literally going against kishi… who gave him the hype. Ok. to put things in perspective. I would guess that most people on here are Americans(this is just a guess so don't chew me out for it... rather comment on what I say afterwards) Who thinks that George Washington was the best/strongest(for arguments sake don't go getting all literal on me) president? who think that Lincoln was? what about fdr? Obama(just for laughs). George bush jr(why not) My point. George Washington was the first and had a direct influence in creating the republic... like the way hashi created konoha(not literally. bear with me people) What if your history teacher said that Bill Clinton was the overall best president... greater than all his predecessors… would you argue? I would because your history teacher didn't create American history, he just teaches it. So why argue with what kishi says when he CREATED Naruto? think please. Oh... does your history teacher not know of the feats accomplished by the first president? his strengths, weaknesses, power and jutsu?(I couldn't help myself. so y wouldn't oro? after all, he went around collecting information for god sake.... he was probably one of the most well informed shinobi in the series. think about it... he and kabuto decoded the secrets of madaras body.... WITHOUT SHARIGAN... Please people. there is no argument. as the story progresses... all that came before WILL look weak compared. just a couple of years ago having a phone that could take pictures was the Sh!T. now there is a 41MP camera phone… are phones with 8MP crappy? tell that to the new sg3... my point is... don't mess with kishi… he has to be more creative in making up new moves that we've never seen before for chars that are CURRENT... hinting on a past/dead chars power without illustrating it is jus for comparison's sake... next what are you going to tell me Sasuke>Hiruzen? the person who says that is an idiot.

 

[Son of God]

I didn't want to enter into the fray because people who underrate hiruzen are obviously idiots... I've read all the posts up until this one... OK. The people out there who underrate hiruzen are literally going against kishi… who gave him the hype. Ok. to put things in perspective. I would guess that most people on here are Americans(this is just a guess so don't chew me out for it... rather comment on what I say afterwards) Who thinks that George Washington was the best/strongest(for arguments sake don't go getting all literal on me) president? who think that Lincoln was? what about fdr? Obama(just for laughs). George bush jr(why not) My point. George Washington was the first and had a direct influence in creating the republic... like the way hashi created konoha(not literally. bear with me people) What if your history teacher said that Bill Clinton was the overall best president... greater than all his predecessors… would you argue? I would because your history teacher didn't create American history, he just teaches it. So why argue with what kishi says when he CREATED Naruto? think please. Oh... does your history teacher not know of the feats accomplished by the first president? his strengths, weaknesses, power and jutsu?(I couldn't help myself. so y wouldn't oro? after all, he went around collecting information for god sake.... he was probably one of the most well informed shinobi in the series. think about it... he and kabuto decoded the secrets of madaras body.... WITHOUT SHARIGAN... Please people. there is no argument. as the story progresses... all that came before WILL look weak compared. just a couple of years ago having a phone that could take pictures was the Sh!T. now there is a 41MP camera phone… are phones with 8MP crappy? tell that to the new sg3... my point is... don't mess with kishi… he has to be more creative in making up new moves that we've never seen before for chars that are CURRENT... hinting on a past/dead chars power without illustrating it is jus for comparison's sake... next what are you going to tell me Sasuke>Hiruzen? the person who says that is an idiot.

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[Thewargoeson]

Fighting me with your theories is not going to work.



Another theory. Fighting me with your theories will not work.

So what ur saying is arguing won't work? Then what's the point of NB make actual counter arguments or just don't comment