-> Hirashin users lose to EMS Madara

[Kirikoe]

Minato's house was set up with Kunai from the INSIDE from the start [

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]. Susanoo is different case in this matter.

@EjBlack: What ever you say, though i could have shat on it .

@Joki Boi: Editing my posts doesn't make you a funny guy.

yes it was on the inside in the first place however look at the distance away from the kunai.. in which case what makes you think he cannot use that distance and teleport inside susano.. the arguement is valid as there is no proof he can and no proof he cant.. however there is proof that there is a radius for the FTG marking

 

[Brother Numpsay]

@EjBlack: What ever you say, though i could have shat on it .

It all came down to reasoning. Low level Edo Tobirama equally clash with alive Hiruzen with ninjutsu. If you look at current Edo Hiruzen, by reasoning, they should be on par with elements (Suiton). Since by feats Hiruzen is "now superior". We have to make that logical and reasonable conclusion that Tobirama's Suiton can be leveling/scaling to Edo Hiruzen too.

Tobirama so far has shown the best pressurize Suiton thus far in the manga. So he should be able to this to Susanoo, as much as Sage Kabuto's lower quality (augment Senjutsu) of Suiton.[

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[The Necromancer]

There isn't even a question about it. I mean we already know about Obito's and Kakashi's Space Time Techniques they can travel to anywhere even without making. Even the summoning tech [food cart destroyer] could be used from anywhere.

In short Minato can teleport inside a locked room with Kunai outside of it because of his FTG Radius U_U

Then by that logic minato can fly just by having a kunai on his person. He can instantly move to any location within a meter of himself at any time, dodging any attack, and by using FTG in quick succession, can travel miles in an instant. But he doesn't... he throws kunai instead.

Again, your reasoning is logical, and i totally understand the point, but I don't think that's what Kishi had in mind for this ability.

 

[Kirikoe]

Space warping should had never been introduced it's just simply too hax and complicated for me and too many arguments over it's potential.(Ftg)

i agree with this.. there are quite a few things in this manga that shouldnt have been introduced imo

Then by that logic minato can fly just by having a kunai on his person. He can instantly move to any location within a meter of himself at any time, dodging any attack, and by using FTG in quick succession, can travel miles in an instant. But he doesn't... he throws kunai instead.

Again, your reasoning is logical, and i totally understand the point, but I don't think that's what Kishi had in mind for this ability.

exactly this is the potential FTG hold's just because kishi doesnt intend to use it that way doesnt mean it cannot be used that way given by what the manga has shown us

this is also why FTG is extremely haxed

think about why kishi doesnt let minato do this.. its because it would be to OP considering kishi gave him amazing reactions already it would simply be to much..

however using the logic we have seen it doesnt mean it cannot be used this way either

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Nice thread,there is no possible way FTG could completely remove Susanoo since it can activate in a instant, as shown when Itachi put his up in the seconds it took Kirin to hit him.

 

[Bronze]

yes it was on the inside in the first place however look at the distance away from the kunai.. in which case what makes you think he cannot use that distance and teleport inside susano.. the arguement is valid as there is no proof he can and no proof he cant.. however there is proof that there is a radius for the FTG marking

The kunai has a seal implanted within it to teleport Minato directly to it. It doesn't require a radius.

@EjBlack: Tobirama lacks feats of overpowered Suiton.

 

[Minator93]

Then by that logic minato can fly just by having a kunai on his person. He can instantly move to any location within a meter of himself at any time, dodging any attack, and by using FTG in quick succession, can travel miles in an instant. But he doesn't... he throws kunai instead.

Again, your reasoning is logical, and i totally understand the point, but I don't think that's what Kishi had in mind for this ability.

Well canonically no one has harmed Minato [except Juubi Jins]. Minato doesn't need to utilize FTG that way and waste chakra. Gai was able fly by kicking "Air"

The thing about Hiraishin is that Kishi introduced it without realizing the full potential of it. As PC said it should never have been introduced because it's too hax. The ability like Goshun Mawashi which can be used with shadow clone alone puts the jutsu above all. And it worked on none other than a Juubi Jin for Christ Sake.

That's way the Hiraishin users are Off panel or the fact that Minato lost his ability to use any ninjutsu other than Rasengan and FTG level 1,2 U_U

 

[HisokaXakosiH]

Flying Raijin is not instant at that.

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[Sennin of Logic]

You've sucessfully proved that tagging is redundant. However, Minato, at the very least, has an alternate method of enabling FTG usage against susanoo.

First off, I strongly disagree about it not constantly being charka for several reasons. First of, your example of it not being solid by no means demonstrates that it is not chakra. Chakra, in general, is not solid without shape transformation. So it may very well be that susanoo, when intangible, is released of its shape transformation and goes to its natural chakra state.



Minato's counter would be chakra transfer. In order for it to work, it requires physical contact or contact with chakra. As I've stated above, there's nothing truly indicating that Susanoo is pure yin energy and isn't just intangible, natural, chakra. Upon touching the chakra of Susanoo, Minato can transfer a piece of his chakra into the susanoo user. Unlike what you said earlier, susanoo, in general, needs to have a constant source of chakra to be maintained. In other words, once the chakra source(the user) is severed, it will fade shortly after, so no, there still is a connection. Throwing a sword is no different from ransenshuriken. It's like saying SM chakra isn't connected to the user because it can be used to throw a ransenshuriken.



After transfering chakra to Madara, Minato can teleport to the susanoo user whenever he pleases as this would fit the condition for FTG. Also, by extension, this means that he could teleport Madara himself to any of his marks.


Here's the counter I devised for both Minato and Tobirama. The real ones can teleport to a mark. They have their clones touch susanoo's chakra. The end result is 1 of 2 things.


A. Susanoo is connected to the user, and thus, the susanoo and its user are teleported to the mark, which automatically put the FTG users inside of the susanoo.


B. Susanoo is not connected to the user. If this is the case, then they teleport the susanoo away from the susanoo user. When they do this, they simultaneously drop a kunai in that location. This enables the originals to teleport right back to the susanoo user before they can reactivate susanoo.

 

[Kirikoe]

The kunai has a seal implanted within it to teleport Minato directly to it. It doesn't require a radius.

@EjBlack: Tobirama lacks feats of overpowered Suiton.

-.- ur not getting what im saying.. whether it requires a radius or not the fact is that the seal on the kunai HAS a radius.. you even posted the chapter yourself as you see minato teleporting to the seal inside his house yet is metres away from the kunai.. this is the radius is has.. meaning minato can make use of this radius.. once the radius overlaps into susano minato can use that to teleport himself within susano

 

[Bronze]

-.- ur not getting what im saying.. whether it requires a radius or not the fact is that the seal on the kunai HAS a radius.. you even posted the chapter yourself as you see minato teleporting to the seal inside his house yet is metres away from the kunai.. this is the radius is has.. meaning minato can make use of this radius.. once the radius overlaps into susano minato can use that to teleport himself within susano

No. What're you saying is FTG's teleportation is limited to the distance of each seal. That's not true. FTG's teleportation was not shown to be limited based on distance. So, it has no radius.

 

[Behemoth55]

Unlike what you said earlier, susanoo, in general, needs to have a constant source of chakra to be maintained.

If I remember correctly, Susanoo consumes life force after the caster formed the warrior out of his own chakra.

 

[Kirikoe]

No. What're you saying is FTG's teleportation is limited to the distance of each seal. That's not true. FTG's teleportation was not shown to be limited based on distance. So, it has no radius.

ok i think you have misunderstood something here -.-

i am saying that the mark on the Kunai has a radius -.-

minato can teleport to any seal as he wishes no matter how far the seal is away from him.. however! there is a distance around the seal in which minato can teleport to.. this here is the radius of the FTG mark on the kunai.. and as i have previously said this Radius can be utilised to minato's advantage

what you are basically saying is that minato can teleport to a kunai and then appear a thousand metres away from it.. or you are basically saying he appears directly on top of it... this is clearly not the case -.-

EDIT: anyways il be off at this point so if i dont reply it does not mean i am admitting defeat but i will address whatever further points you have to add later on..

 

[Bogard]

FTG user can decide what to teleport

Minato already showed to capacity to decide what to teleport regardless if he made a direct/indirect contact with a target, as shown when he teleported Kyubi while leaving Gamabunta behind despite Gamabunta was actually the one he made contact with [

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He did the same thing while saving Naruto and Sasuke against Jubito. Jubito was indirectly connected to him through Naruto and Sasuke(by grabbing their heads to crush them), yet Minato left them behind

So if contact is made with Madara's Susanoo, he can directly teleport Madara outside since Madara is indirectly connected through the Susanoo chakra

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Then by that logic minato can fly just by having a kunai on his person. He can instantly move to any location within a meter of himself at any time, dodging any attack, and by using FTG in quick succession, can travel miles in an instant. But he doesn't... he throws kunai instead.

Again, your reasoning is logical, and i totally understand the point, but I don't think that's what Kishi had in mind for this ability.

Well no, you're misunderstanding why he doesn't do that, and the answer's simple. It's because you need to teleport somewhere toward the kunai. You can't teleport toward a kunai in your hand since you're already there, which is why Minato teleports away to another kunai and back to repositions himself.

Spoiler

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[Minator93]

FTG user can decide what to teleport

Minato already showed to capacity to decide what to teleport regardless if he made a direct/indirect contact with a target, as shown when he teleported Kyubi while leaving Gamabunta behind despite Gamabunta was actually the one he made contact with [

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So if contact is made with Madara's Susanoo, he can directly teleport Madara outside since Madara is indirectly connected through the Susanoo chakra

To support what Bogard Said:

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[Brother Numpsay]

@EjBlack: Tobirama lacks feats of overpowered Suiton.

Right, which is why I mention, logically, reasonably, and common sense. Water Dragon can still be dangerous.

Even the basic Suiton via Water Wave can be dangerous with Tobirama's pressurize skills.

 

[Waltz]

ok a few things here...

the whole susano going intangible thing is fine and all but if he lets through a kunai then minato for one can simply teleport within the susano since it has been allowed to pass through.. if it isnt beng allowed to pass through then it isnt intangible which means if it comes into contact with the kunai it can be teleported..

and as for the kyuubi minato could use the four symbol seals to seal him away within an object of any kind.. once sealed madara can no longer summon him..

also for minato or nidaime to teleport madara himself then there chakra or the tag itself must come into contact with them..

If decides to teleport within the Susano'o, the user could simply make it tangible once again and encase Minato. It wouldn't get by the Sharingan.

Precisely my point. ​

Can Madara selectively make parts of his Susano'o intangible?

If Madara makes his Susano'o intangible he allows his opponent to enter his hit-box, where victory is easily secured.

Spoiler

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Which depends on the portion of Susano'o through which the Kunai passes. Recalling that the Sharingan would be able to accurately pinpoint the Kunai's direction, it could be prohibited in numerous ways:

-> By a Kunai from the Susano'o user
-> By a Susano'o Katana
-> ect.

It also isn't impossible for the user to solidify Susano'o once more, encasing the Hirashin user. ​

Lol

This was my original Argument, which still holds




Now as for the 4 points:

1. Madara can manipulate his Susanoo just like any other member but he didn't manipulate the trajectory of the TBB after it was fired. That's pure BS. Hashirama didn't want the the layout of the battlefield to be changed that's why he used Rashomon to change it's trajectory. So as said in my quote, the Jikukan Keekei i.e. S/T barrier works!

2. The Hiraishin user doesn't need to "Tag" Susanoo. A chakra link via a shadow clone is enough. Again in my quote I never said Minato/Tobirama "tags" Susanoo I only said "touch" meaning a link is all that is needed Lol

3. Link between Susanoo and it's user:

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The four possibilities written in my quote work fine U_U

4. Other:

(i) Hiraishin Users have Large Chakra pools. Minato mastered the Perfect SM that alone confirms he had a very large chakra pool. Tobirama was a Senju who battled Madara for days, killed his brother Izuna. There never was a question about his chakra pool Lol

(ii) The Kyuubi gets teleported and a contract seal could be used at any time. Aslo Madara could re-summon it but before he does that he gets blitzd seeing how Hiraishin users are the fastest of their era, sai by Madara himself U_U

(iv) Nidaime has never once been caught in a genjutsu Lol Edo Tensei beats Madara without much difficulty

(v) Minato has never once been caught in a genjutsu, even the best genjutsu user by feats i.e. Obito couldn't put Minato under.

@ #1) Speculation.

@ @2) ...

@#3) Those tiny spikes aren't responsible for Susano'o. You're being fooled by the time skip between panels. By the time the final panel [after teleportation] was shown, they were already being teleported Minato's Kunai. Susano'o was evaporated between then. We've already seen how Obito's Omnyoudon works: those tiny spikes could never have destroyed the large chunk of Susano'o that you're supposedly saying was left behind. You're pulling at straws.


@#4) Let me get this correctly, Minato_R3: You're under the belief that Tobirama and Minato's Chakra pools are comparable to Madara's?

"Because a character has never been seen facing a particular jutsu, it automatically means it can't work on them"

Your reasoning ^ is fallacious. You'll have to do better, in order to entertain me. ​

 

[Transcendence]

Acquiesce thread Waltz. It's quite moronic in any regard to think either Hiraishin user could compare to even Eien No Mangekyou Sharingan Madara. It isn't even a matter of the teleporting Susano'o argument. Susano'o as you proposed is composed of Inton and amplified by the users Yoton which allows them to control and use it to their will. This confirms that Susano'o is nothing more than a manifestation of the user's chakra. If one of the Hiraishin user's were to try and teleport the user's Susano'o (in this case; Madara), it would be completely redundant. Madara could quite simply just re-spawn his Susano'o almost instantaneously as it is composed entirely of his chakra.​

 

[shelke]

Nice thread Waltz. You know I don't like you, but still nice.

It would have been nice had you introduced the element of intricate Chakra connection. Susano'o is more or less an outward, ethereal manifestation of the inner chakra network, metamorphosed into a colossal form via the reaction from the Twin-MS. It, in other words, is intricately connected to where the user's Chakra Reserves lie. For example, it was shown to fluctuate in the exact same manner as Itachi's Chakra's were dwindling during his fight with Hebi Sasuke. Or how Taka Sasuke's Susano'o lost its tier as soon as his reserves dwindled.

My point being, there is no evidence to suggest that FTG has any workings beyond chakra manifestations that are not intricately connected. It warping away a form that rises and falls in credence with user's chakra is a far-fecthed logic, unsupported by manga.

Good thread regardless.