Hebi Sasuke vs. Jiraiya

[RedRobin]

What intel? "He cannot die"? That's incredibly basic. It would take any Jonin about 30 seconds to determine that.

Like I said I don't remember that, so I'll need to review the scans.

Intel on how the ritual works. First Hidan needs the blood of the opponent. Second he needs to draw the symbol on the ground and stand it it for the technique to work. Then Hidan can damage the opponent by damaging himself. Again this all may have been obvious to the reader but its not obvious to the characters in the manga. It took Shikamaru some time to put it all together. Shikamaru is one of the smartest characters in the manga so if it took him some time to figure it out then it will take longer for other characters to deduce what is happening.

 

[Demonic.]

.

Shikamaru and Ino collectively did just that.

When was this my man...

Ot Jiraiya is too much for Hebi Sasuke

 

[LoZelda101]

Being able to react to someone doesn't mean you can defeat them in close quarters combat. In fact none of what you've mentioned here supports the assertion that Sasuke beats Jiraiya at all let alone mid-high diff. Ghost punches use NE from the sides of the fist as shown by when Naruto hit Asura Path. Human Path catching his fist only means that his punches aren't strong enough to break his guard, not that he doesn't have Ghost punches, cause Db IV lists him as a user of Frog Kata.

-Hair techs can't be blocked by snake wrap. His senbon attack would rip right through them and skewer Sasuke, same goes for his wings. CS2's wings can fend them off but that leaves him open for Rasengan, Chou Oodama Rasengan or an elemental combo from J man and the toads and Sasuke won't survive either of those.
-Yomi Numa isn't irrelevant if it can one shot Manda.
-Asura Path being able to sneak up on him is irrelevant. That was a 6 on 1 scenario where Jiraiya thought he killed his opponent. This is 1 on 1.
-Genjutsu blitz is a ridiculous scenario that never happens. Distance is 50m. They can block LoS with a Dust Cloud. :lol How is Sasuke gonna cross that distance and put them both in Genjutsu before Jiraiya does something about it?

Even outside of Frog Call he doesn't stand a chance. Jiraiya would mid diff him. If Sasuke tries to fight him in CQC Chou Oodama Rasengan and Jiraiya's hair techniques give him an overwhelming advantage.

If sasuke was able to use 3T to parry Ay with chidori, why can't sasuke do the same to jiraiya? I'm not factoring in ghost punch cause he didn't use it in the pain fight and there was no reason for him to not had used it then, if 3T was able to track and dodge A and B linear speed, sasuke should be able to parry jiraiya and use chidori spear.

hmm, dust cloud would prevent the genjutsu but what's to stop sasuke from that brief cloud to use manda/aoda whoever to go underground to close in, then charge with his genjutsu to put down the boss toad?

didn't sasuke wings block C2 and fire style? yeah, jiraiya could just put pressure on sasuke with the hair to close in with rasengan, was going to say that sasuke could use the snakes mid-range or genjutsu to prevent jiraiya from closing in with the rasengan when sasuke is blocking senbon.
I'm saying sasuke would use manda solely as a meat sheld or platform to block flames or escape the swamp.

 

[Booker]

That's dishonest. Hidan underestimated him and Shikamaru guided him towards a location which panned out an elaborate strategy in response to the knowledge he gathered on Hidan. Shikamaru isn't low Jonin, not with prep considering how Shikamaru practically subdued both Hidan and Kakuzu simultaneously in 2-3 moves.

I'm not disputing that fact. I'm saying it's not that impressive considering the prep was nowhere near enough to counter any other Kage, so I'm not sure why this validates that Hidan is "Kage Level".

Not sure why subduing Hidan and Kakuzu is impressive, either. That's largely useless on Shikamaru's own. It's just stalling.

What do you mean? There was a Bijuu right there, he survived an onslaught from a Bijuu, even if he outlasted it that means he fought against a Bijuu [

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]. Your assumption makes no sense, Nii allowed her Bijuu to take over completely [

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]

And again you're gonna ignore the fact that Asuma a high jounin admitted that Hidan is far stronger than him.

Let me make this simple for you.
Asuma = Top Konoha Jounin
Admits Hidan is far beyond him, how does that mean Hidan is on Asuma's level? That's clear cut portrayal right there.




People underestimate an ambush with intel. Kakuzu did quick thinking and sent his threads underground last minute, if Shikamaru had intel on that, then maybe even those two would be finished.

Heck Tobirama and the 2nd Raikage combined lost to an ambush from opponents who are below them.

It means I have no idea what conclusion you're drawing from that. All I see is Hidan running away constantly. What, did he beat a Bijuu in taijutsu? Because that's what you're implying right now.

I didn't say that Hidan was on Asuma's level. I said he wasn't Kage level. He's still high-Jounin.

 

[Booker]

That's dishonest. Hidan underestimated him and Shikamaru guided him towards a location which panned out an elaborate strategy in response to the knowledge he gathered on Hidan. Shikamaru isn't low Jonin, not with prep considering how Shikamaru practically subdued both Hidan and Kakuzu simultaneously in 2-3 moves.

Intel on how the ritual works. First Hidan needs the blood of the opponent. Second he needs to draw the symbol on the ground and stand it it for the technique to work. Then Hidan can damage the opponent by damaging himself. Again this all may have been obvious to the reader but its not obvious to the characters in the manga. It took Shikamaru some time to put it all together. Shikamaru is one of the smartest characters in the manga so if it took him some time to figure it out then it will take longer for other characters to deduce what is happening.

Not sure how any of this intel factored into Shikamaru's plan, or why it's impressive. Again, the only useful information here is also the most basic; "Hidan can't die".

 

[NarutoX28]

Not sure how any of this intel factored into Shikamaru's plan, or why it's impressive. Again, the only useful information here is also the most basic; "Hidan can't die".

So having a location designed specifically for countering Hidan's abilities isn't a significant advantage?

 

[RedRobin]

Not sure how any of this intel factored into Shikamaru's plan, or why it's impressive. Again, the only useful information here is also the most basic; "Hidan can't die".

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I am not going to go through the whole entire fight again because you cant seem to remember it.

Shikamaru had Kakashi get Kakuzu's blood which then later leads to Hidan killing one of his hearts with the ritual. But even besides that if someone doesnt know about Hidan's technique then he can easily kill them.

 

[Booker]

So having a location designed specifically for countering Hidan's abilities isn't a significant advantage?

What? I didn't say it wasn't a significant advantage. I said it wasn't that impressive. Give me 2 weeks and I could have come up with something similar, if not more effective. The point is that Shikamaru could not have beaten any other Kage with similar prep, so I don't understand how this validates Hidan being Kage level.

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I am not going to go through the whole entire fight again because you cant seem to remember it.

Shikamaru had Kakashi get Kakuzu's blood which then later leads to Hidan killing one of his hearts with the ritual. But even besides that if someone doesnt know about Hidan's technique then he can easily kill them.

...Ok? I knew all of that.

Again, not seeing why that is impressive or validates Hidan being Kage level.

 

[KidGamer65]

If sasuke was able to use 3T to parry Ay with chidori, why can't sasuke do the same to jiraiya? I'm not factoring in ghost punch cause he didn't use it in the pain fight and there was no reason for him to not had used it then, if 3T was able to track and dodge A and B linear speed, sasuke should be able to parry jiraiya and use chidori spear.

hmm, dust cloud would prevent the genjutsu but what's to stop sasuke from that brief cloud to use manda/aoda whoever to go underground to close in, then charge with his genjutsu to put down the boss toad?

didn't sasuke wings block C2 and fire style? yeah, jiraiya could just put pressure on sasuke with the hair to close in with rasengan, was going to say that sasuke could use the snakes mid-range or genjutsu to prevent jiraiya from closing in with the rasengan when sasuke is blocking senbon.
I'm saying sasuke would use manda solely as a meat sheld or platform to block flames or escape the swamp.

Because those are two completely different scenarios. He was able to dodge Ay's elbow attack. In terms of AoE COR>>>Elbow, thus it'd be harder to dodge in cqc. He can't duck under Rasengan and hit Jiraiya directly when Rasengan covers the entirety of Jiraiya's body and then some. He can't match it since his strongest offensive attack is Chidori. Only thing he can do is break away. Not to mention MS Sasuke>Hebi Sasuke. Karin noted how Sasuke's chakra was thicker than it was in his second state curse mark even before he showed off Susanoo. The stronger your chakra the better your physical abilities become.

And DB IV states he can use Frog Kata clear cut. What he didn't do against Pain is irrelevant, and even if I went down that route simply reading the fight tells you that it literally wouldn't help a thing as he couldn't take them on together as shown.

1. Aoda isn't usable.
2. He's not going to summon Manda, burrow underground, appear in front of Ma, Pa and Jiraiya and then land Genjutsu without them doing anything about it. If Manda is summoned and they burrow underground Jiraiya simply creates distance and then attacks with Toad Oil Flame Bomb or he just simply sinks Manda w/ Yomi Numa making it a non factor in any scenario and then attacks Sasuke directly. Jiraiya, Ma and Pa can all sense chakra. This tactic won't work.

And Sasuke's Wings were destroyed by C2, and it blocked Itachi's Katon. Jiraiya's Katon is on a far higher level than Itachi's Katon clearly and heat based attacks don't work the same as explosive based attacks. If Itachi's Katon can singe Sasuke's wings then Toad Oil Flame Bomb would burn them off and Goemon (far hotter than TOFB) would melt them and Sasuke.

And not sure how Sasuke is going to land Genjutsu on Jiraiya when he'll be busy blocking Needle Senbon with his wings. Can't make eye contact like that.

Sasuke obviously gets destroyed regardless of Frog Call. Jiraiya never even has to get close to him. Mid range and long range is perfect because Jiraiya's attacks are still lethal from that range while Sasuke has no attacks that'd defeat Jiraiya from that range.

 

[Zexion~]

Why Booker chooses to incessantly hate on Hidan who already garners next to zero attention is beyond me.

Asuma was a high jounin was absolutely wrecked by Hidan, not to mention Kakashi admitted he was strong :lol, Shikamaru having DAYS of prep means nothing here.

 

[ToshiZO]

It means I have no idea what conclusion you're drawing from that. All I see is Hidan running away constantly. What, did he beat a Bijuu in taijutsu? Because that's what you're implying right now.

Do you know anything about Hidan lol? He needs blood and its GG, all we know is he captured a bijuu. how do you even assume anything else?

I didn't say that Hidan was on Asuma's level. I said he wasn't Kage level. He's still high-Jounin.

Asuma said he far surpasses himself, he can't be jounin level if Asuma himself is on that level, Asuma is hovering around high jounin level.

Not sure how any of this intel factored into Shikamaru's plan, or why it's impressive. Again, the only useful information here is also the most basic; "Hidan can't die".

Oh yea how about the fact that if he gets a single drop of blood from you, you're dead? You clearly seem lost here, being immortal is not even the big thing here, its how his curse works.

Not to mention Shikamaru's shadow possession is perfectly convenient, as it effectively takes him out of the circle without dealing any damage. Under normal circumstances, no one would know whats going on (it took Shikamaru plenty of time to figure it out, he conveniently had Hidan stopped while figuring it out) every time they attack Hidan they would receive damage, so they would be hesitant in attacking, except they wouldn't have time to stand around because Hidan can end it in one strike.

 

[RedRobin]

...Ok? I knew all of that.

Again, not seeing why that is impressive or validates Hidan being Kage level.

Having no intel on Hidan makes him dangerous. You can see how it works out for a Jin who had no intel. That would without a doubt mke him kage level, low kage but he is still up there.

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[Booker]

Do you know anything about Hidan lol? He needs blood and its GG, all we know is he captured a bijuu. how do you even assume anything else?



Asuma said he far surpasses himself, he can't be jounin level if Asuma himself is on that level, Asuma is hovering around high jounin level.





Oh yea how about the fact that if he gets a single drop of blood from you, you're dead? You clearly seem lost here, being immortal is not even the big thing here, its how his curse works.

Not to mention Shikamaru's shadow possession is perfectly convenient, as it effectively takes him out of the circle without dealing any damage. Under normal circumstances, no one would know whats going on (it took Shikamaru plenty of time to figure it out, he conveniently had Hidan stopped while figuring it out) every time they attack Hidan they would receive damage, so they would be hesitant in attacking, except they wouldn't have time to stand around because Hidan can end it in one strike.

I probably know more than you do. Right, so he beat a Bijuu in Taijutsu? And then what? Stabbed himself and it hurt a massive Bijuu 10 times his size? Are you saying that Hidan would one-shot the Juubi if he got some of its blood?

Of course he can still be stronger than Asuma and be a Jounin. It just means that he's a stronger Jounin. He surely doesn't fit into the Kage category, because he doesn't even approach the power of the weakest known Kage.

Again... Why does this prove that Hidan is Kage level? All this information is incredibly basic. All it means is that Shikamaru can defeat strong Jounins with prep. You could give Shikamaru all the intel and time you wanted, he could not beat the likes of any known Kage.

Good luck arguing for a scenario where any Jounin level shinobi sits back while Hidan draws a circle with blood without them interfering.

 

[Booker]

Having no intel on Hidan makes him dangerous. You can see how it works out for a Jin who had no intel. That would without a doubt mke him kage level, low kage but he is still up there.

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Lmao, not even close.

Kakuzu was there to provide fire power and prevent Hidan from being obliterated. Take away Kakuzu? Hidan gets trashed. Please, go ahead and tell me that without Kakuzu there Hidan would beat a Bijuu in Taijutsu and then one-shot it with his ritual.

If this is the logic you honestly want to use, then Hidan can potentially one-shot Kaguya or the Juubi. Which would actually be hilarious to hear you argue for.

 

[ToshiZO]

I probably know more than you do. Right, so he beat a Bijuu in Taijutsu? And then what? Stabbed himself and it hurt a massive Bijuu 10 times his size? Are you saying that Hidan would one-shot the Juubi if he got some of its blood?

And?

Of course he can still be stronger than Asuma and be a Jounin. It just means that he's a stronger Jounin. He surely doesn't fit into the Kage category, because he doesn't even approach the power of the weakest known Kage.

He can take down kage level characters given the right conditions. First of all in any realistic first manga encounter intel is extremely scarce, you rarely know much about your opponent, that is how 90% of fights in the shinobi world work. And that automatically makes Hidan an immediate threat to a Kage level opponent because 1 cut = game over.

Again... Why does this prove that Hidan is Kage level? All this information is incredibly basic. All it means is that Shikamaru can defeat strong Jounins with prep. You could give Shikamaru all the intel and time you wanted, he could not beat the likes of any known Kage.

Uh it took Hidan completely disregarding Shikamaru as a threat even with all those other factors taken into account, in a vs setting on a forum, he does not and cannot beat Hidan even with intel and prep. So Hidan would be included in that category if you're arguing in terms of ability.

Good luck arguing for a scenario where any Jounin level shinobi sits back while Hidan draws a circle with blood without them interfering.

Lmfao except that's exactly what Asuma and his squad did.

Without intel: Nobody even pays mind to it, just like in canon
With intel: They know he's immortal and they know one drop of blood can spell your death, so they wouldn't want to be rushing in to attack him, infact that is exactly what he wants.

After they got intel on Hidan, the whole gameplan was to run away from Hidan, avoid him in CQC.

 

[Booker]

And?


He can take down kage level characters given the right conditions. First of all in any realistic first manga encounter intel is extremely scarce, you rarely know much about your opponent, that is how 90% of fights in the shinobi world work. And that automatically makes Hidan an immediate threat to a Kage level opponent because 1 cut = game over.



Uh it took Hidan completely disregarding Shikamaru as a threat even with all those other factors taken into account, in a vs setting on a forum, he does not and cannot beat Hidan even with intel and prep. So Hidan would be included in that category if you're arguing in terms of ability.


Lmfao except that's exactly what Asuma and his squad did.

Without intel: Nobody even pays mind to it, just like in canon
With intel: They know he's immortal and they know one drop of blood can spell your death, so they wouldn't want to be rushing in to attack him, infact that is exactly what he wants.

After they got intel on Hidan, the whole gameplan was to run away from Hidan, avoid him in CQC.

I asked you a question. Are you implying that Hidan can beat Bijuu in Taijutsu and then one-shot them?

Lol, maybe as a support. Give me one Kage level opponent that Hidan could beat and I will tell you why you're hilariously wrong.

Sure he can. He already did.

You mean in the context of the story, where the final villain is distracted by a gay orgy and Naruto wins by farting? Please. We're discussing the abilities of the characters in a VS scenario, where no opponent is going to give Hidan any remote breathing room. Hidan is only powerful in the context of the story, where he has backup and opponents shit their pants at convenient points.

 

[LoZelda101]

Because those are two completely different scenarios. He was able to dodge Ay's elbow attack. In terms of AoE COR>>>Elbow, thus it'd be harder to dodge in cqc. He can't duck under Rasengan and hit Jiraiya directly when Rasengan covers the entirety of Jiraiya's body and then some. He can't match it since his strongest offensive attack is Chidori. Only thing he can do is break away. Not to mention MS Sasuke>Hebi Sasuke. Karin noted how Sasuke's chakra was thicker than it was in his second state curse mark even before he showed off Susanoo. The stronger your chakra the better your physical abilities become.

And DB IV states he can use Frog Kata clear cut. What he didn't do against Pain is irrelevant, and even if I went down that route simply reading the fight tells you that it literally wouldn't help a thing as he couldn't take them on together as shown.

1. Aoda isn't usable.
2. He's not going to summon Manda, burrow underground, appear in front of Ma, Pa and Jiraiya and then land Genjutsu without them doing anything about it. If Manda is summoned and they burrow underground Jiraiya simply creates distance and then attacks with Toad Oil Flame Bomb or he just simply sinks Manda w/ Yomi Numa making it a non factor in any scenario and then attacks Sasuke directly. Jiraiya, Ma and Pa can all sense chakra. This tactic won't work.

And Sasuke's Wings were destroyed by C2, and it blocked Itachi's Katon. Jiraiya's Katon is on a far higher level than Itachi's Katon clearly and heat based attacks don't work the same as explosive based attacks. If Itachi's Katon can singe Sasuke's wings then Toad Oil Flame Bomb would burn them off and Goemon (far hotter than TOFB) would melt them and Sasuke.

And not sure how Sasuke is going to land Genjutsu on Jiraiya when he'll be busy blocking Needle Senbon with his wings. Can't make eye contact like that.

Sasuke obviously gets destroyed regardless of Frog Call. Jiraiya never even has to get close to him. Mid range and long range is perfect because Jiraiya's attacks are still lethal from that range while Sasuke has no attacks that'd defeat Jiraiya from that range.

lmao. fine I'll agree. but ask me these questions.

that karin quote came after sasuke dodged B's lariat and that seemed about as impressive as the elbow no?

if sasuke blocked senbon then jiraiya jumped up to prepare for big ball rasengan (COR?), what's to stop sasuke from just using his hand to cast chidori spear, it has plenty of range and speed to intercept does it not?

yeah, I forgot they could sense even when manda is underground. but that hasn't stopped him from getting flanked by another target. what's to stop sasuke from using that distraction underneath, then sasuke shunshin flank jiraiya or the frog with genjutsu like he did against C (who also happen to be a sensor)

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Yeah, sasuke can keep his wing up, but leave enough room for him to see. he did it after blocking itachi's FB

 

[ToshiZO]

I asked you a question. Are you implying that Hidan can beat Bijuu in Taijutsu and then one-shot them?

Huh? Why does it have to be a one shot? He can repeatedly put holes in himself.

Lol, maybe as a support. Give me one Kage level opponent that Hidan could beat and I will tell you why you're hilariously wrong.

You had a sig before, it made me laugh everytime I read it because it showed how clueless you were. No intel and he beats some of those characters. Just like your current sig, when you have something thats arguable and you put dumb gifs like that, it comes off as a fail.

Sure he can. He already did.

Lmfao this is hilarious considering what you typed next.

You mean in the context of the story, where the final villain is distracted by a gay orgy and Naruto wins by farting? Please. We're discussing the abilities of the characters in a VS scenario, where no opponent is going to give Hidan any remote breathing room. Hidan is only powerful in the context of the story, where he has backup and opponents shit their pants at convenient points.

Lmfaoo you are a living contradiction you say all this VS scenario nonsense here, yet completely ignore it in other parts of the same damn post. Saying the opposite thing when in it comes to Shikamaru and him taking Hidan down in the context of the story.

Not to mention what I said can be applied to VS threads.

With no intel: Even in vs battles, nobody pays mind to it unless out of character. Which isn't even the case in 90% of threads.
With intel: Characters are cautious knowing engaging Hidan is dangerous due to him being immortal and only needing a drop of blood, so it only works in his favour that someone tries to rush at him while he is drawing the circle (which he can do at the beginning of the battle).

 

[NarutoX28]

What? I didn't say it wasn't a significant advantage. I said it wasn't that impressive. Give me 2 weeks and I could have come up with something similar, if not more effective. The point is that Shikamaru could not have beaten any other Kage with similar prep, so I don't understand how this validates Hidan being Kage level.

It wouldn't matter because crippling two Kage level opponents in 2-3 exchanges through a cleverly designed ambush doesn't reflect a low Jonin level ninja at all. I don't care what your presumption of the entire situation is when Kakashi, one of the most intellectual ninja in the manga praised Shikamaru for his intelligence. It wasn't a half-assed plan that anyone could think of out of the blue and it certainly is a blatant contradiction to what Kishimoto conveyed in the Databook.

For example, you conveyed that analyzing Hidan's abilities and formulating a strategy against it wasn't impressive, but Kishimoto disagrees:

[Sharp Insight]
Despite being in the middle of a tense battle, Shikamaru was analyzing Hidan's ability. Using his brains to drag the jutsu's mysteries into broad daylight, Shikamaru pieced slight clues together like in a puzzle, from which he devised a counter-strategy!!

Fact of the matter is, you're discounting multiple factors such as Hidan letting his guard down which is explicitly stated in both the Manga and the Databook. Hidan losing to Shikamaru doesn't devalue Hidan's position as a ninja or his performance against both Asuma and Shikamaru simultaneously.

 

[Jugram Haschwalth]

Close combat means death for sauce.Frog kata;Larger Rasengan[Senjutsu infused];frog call etc
Jiraiya has more larger summons while Yomi Numa can be used sink manda.
Jiraiya's offensive ninjutsu>>>Sauce and only chance sauce has is kirin which i doubt he can pull of.

Except it doesn't. Jiraiya never shown the feat to use Frog kata. Rasengans are dodged especially the larger one's or tanked via snakes that

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. Jiraiya summonings are possessed via genjutsu so if he decides to use them he'll only be adding to Sasuke's arsenal. Sasuke only chance is Kirin? Not really since a

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and his

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could kill Jiraiya or use Manda to swallow him up.