Hebi Sasuke vs. Jiraiya

unknownvillain1254

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doesn't change the fact he got shitted by Itachi who didn't use MS against him

Don't change the that if oro want to kill him he can 1th hokage bit@h slap 2th hokage bit@h slap itachi . Itachi bow to third and minato is a death sentence for itachi

Itachi can't beat neji dad in edo form
 

RedRobin

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None of that compares to lacking your soul. Physically Orochimaru was the most restricted in the Sannin show down.
Again, you give Oro his full power(without ET) and he mid diffs Tsunade
SM Jiraiya vs Tsunade is a Low diff for Jiraiya.

Honestly, Tsunade shouldn't even be considered a sannin :lol

Yet he managed to hop away from Tsunade's attacks without coughing up blood and continue to maneuver around the entire battle-field whilst slamming Jiraiya into the ground as he lunged his blade at Tsunade. This is a pure exaggeration on Orochimaru's condition during the entire battle.

With Tsunade, she wasn't only battle rusty, but suffered from exhaustion prior to the battle, and fatigue from a severely depleted life-force (hence the lack of Yin Seal) which causes all of her physical attributes that she heavily depends on tank as a result.

Why are we talking about Tsunade? Well I guess if we are then I might as well jump in. Orochimaru with no arms fought with Kyuubi Naruto. Tsunade hadnt fought in 20 years not to mention she was hungover and hadnt slept in a couple of days. Honestly how is that any better than the condition Oro was in?

I see Kratos is still extremely salty I out-debated him using Tsunade while he used Kisame. Lol
 

BLAZE

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Don't change the that if oro want to kill him he can 1th hokage bit@h slap 2th hokage bit@h slap itachi . Itachi bow to third and minato is a death sentence for itachi

Oro is neither of three and he needs sacrifices for summoning edo's

Doesn't change the fact he got his ass whooped by 3T 14 y.o Itachi

Itachi can't beat neji dad in edo form

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lemme make that red bar more red
 

LoZelda101

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Engaging Jiraiya in CQC spells death due to Chou Oodama Rasengan and Frog Call. Not to mention DB 4 states that Jiraiya has Frog Kata, so ghost punches that Sasuke can't see nor does he have knowledge about. Fighting from long range spells death because Sasuke's long range techniques pale in comparison to Toad Oil Flame Bomb and Goemon. His summons can be sunk via Yomi Numa, and if Sasuke uses Chidori Nagashi to try and negate the swamp to save the summon then Jiraiya follows up with Goemon or Toad Oil Flame Bomb.

His only chance is to set up Kirin, which really isn't that hard. If he does that then he can kill Jiraiya. Otherwise Jiraiya murks him and it really shouldn't be debatable.


And using Sasuke's fight against Itachi as proof he's on Jiraiya's level makes zero sense, especially since Jiraiya would push Itachi harder than Sasuke would be able to do in that specific scenario.



Lmao I hope you're joking. Mentioning the above is pointless because Sasuke's not at the level where Naruto's level of sensory and durability is needed to kill him. Location or not, Jiraiya puts him in a coffin.

how? sasuke 3T is more than fast enough to react to jiraiya since he was able to react to KB. jiraiya's punch was easily caught by human path with no signs of after punch(ghost) and his sensory was easily exploited twice by asura path. how is orochi absorbed sasuke not going to be able to defeat jiraiya? even his hair techs can be blocked off by CS2 hand or Snake wrap. and why can't sasuke use genjutsu blitz the frog to prevent it from using oil for jiraiya's flames? swamp tech is irrelevant cause more than likely sasuke would just use manda as a meat shield or path way to get out of bad spot.

edit: frog call. forgot he had that. I doubt sasuke would properly counter that without intel
 
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King Of Pop

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Orochimaru with no arms fought with Kyuubi Naruto.
so? that is simply a testament to oro and doesnt slight his handicap in comparison to tsunade. if he can perform good with without use of his arms, then he would simply perform twice as good with it. simple logic
 

RedRobin

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so? that is simply a testament to oro and doesnt slight his handicap in comparison to tsunade. if he can perform good with without use of his arms, then he would simply perform twice as good with it. simple logic

Explain to me how he becomes twice as good? Aside from ET what techniques does he get back with his arms that matter in combat? Most of his arsenal involves his mouth.
 

The Messiah

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Explain to me how he becomes twice as good? Aside from ET what techniques does he get back with his arms that matter in combat? Most of his arsenal involves his mouth.

Orochimaru with ET is a big difference from Orochimaru without ET.
 

Booker

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Explain to me how he becomes twice as good? Aside from ET what techniques does he get back with his arms that matter in combat? Most of his arsenal involves his mouth.

To be fair, with arms Orochimaru is hyped to have a vast array of jutsu.

We just haven't seen them because we've mostly seen him without his arms.
 

RedRobin

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To be fair, with arms Orochimaru is hyped to have a vast array of jutsu.

We just haven't seen them because we've mostly seen him without his arms.

Yeah I know but there isnt much to discuss there since we have never seen his vast array of justu. Same with Kakashi.
 

NarutoX28

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I say Sasuke beats Tsunade = matchup excuse
I say Sasuke pushed Itachi = matchup excuse
I ask you to list out characters Sasuke and Tsunade can beat = "don't want to because I know I'll prove your point"

How does this pass as an argument? Literally anything Hebi Sasuke does would be a matchup excuse, Its funny if I bring up Deidara who low diffs Tsunade you'll bring a matchup excuse again, and then to validate Deidara in a tier ranking the person Deidara beat (Gaara) who low diffs Tsunade would be a matcup excuse too.

When almost every other character is a "bad matchup" its not a bad matchup anymore, it means something is clearly wrong with the character you're defending

Also there is more to being a ninja than combat skills, Tsunade is exceptional in the medical field which is extremely useful in battle, that alone puts her at Kage level.

Except the bulk of your argument ignores fundamental things that are considered in the Naruto world such as how abilities compare to others. The examples you provided such as Orochimaru defeating Jiraiya, Hebi Sasuke competing at a high level with Itachi, and even Hebi Sasuke being capable of defeating Tsunade hinges of the idea that each of these fighters were well-suited in combating the opposition:

1. It's common knowledge that Orochimaru has the advantage through the Three Way Deadlock where Jiraiya could never defeat Orochimaru because of the Snake's advantages over Toads.

2. I addressed this and you haven't provided a feasible rebuttal to suggest otherwise. Orochimaru operated horribly in response to Itachi because he didn't have viable counters for majority of Itachi's techniques and a lot of Itachi's combat style incorporates Genjutsu. This is something Orochimaru could not counter because that was visually depicted whereas Sasuke could because he possessed a 3T Sharingan and was one of the only individuals who could conquer Tsukiyomi aside from Obito during that time period, but this is something you deliberately ignore.

3. I don't even agree with the notion that Tsunade can't even defeat Hebi Sasuke, but I will entertain it regardless. Sharingan is one of the most effective counters for those who prioritize on CQC and Tsunade's Taijutsu is hindered through Sharingan Genjutsu. The only way a close-range fighting style would effectively defeat a Sharingan user is if you're Raikage, Minato, or Gai.

Reason why I'm not using the same level of argumentation you are because Tsunade's ability to battle opponents in comparison to Hebi Sasuke is according to our subjectivity. Now, if you want to argue that Tsunade loses to both Sannin and can't defeat majority of opponents below the Sannin Level, then she is not Sannin Level. This is the logic you're applying and I'm not sure how you can push your agenda using that level of logic and have me believe that she still remains Sannin Level. If you're going to nerf Tsunade and conveniently push her to Sannin Level just for the sake of this argument, then I won't entertain this debate any further.

I disagree with the last statement because countless times are her combat abilities emphasized throughout the manga and the most notable ones were Jiraiya's statement about how no one could rival her in the battle-field or her introduction to Byakugou which enabled her to effectively engage in close-combat with Madara's Susano'o.
 

NarutoX28

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None of that compares to lacking your soul. Physically Orochimaru was the most restricted in the Sannin show down.
Again, you give Oro his full power(without ET) and he mid diffs Tsunade
SM Jiraiya vs Tsunade is a Low diff for Jiraiya.

Honestly, Tsunade shouldn't even be considered a sannin :lol

Losing his soul is equivalent to losing vitality which is what was explicitly shown with Tsunade, hence the loss of her Yin Seal and need to recover after the battle. Fact is that the way you described Orochimaru's condition was hyperbolic and stating that Orochimaru was in worse condition than Jiraiya is also dishonest considering Orochimaru implied that when he acknowledged Jiraiya's handicap:

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Regardless, if Kishimoto wanted to depict the Shinobi as equals with the Tree Way Deadlock being the only defining factor in the Sannin's relationship in terms of battle, then Orochimaru being the most handicapped is the worst way to go about doing so.

As for the bold, tell ToshiZO that.
 
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NarutoX28

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I am not trying to front. I like Kakashi too. Least Kishi could have done was give him some katon.

Databook 4 states that he has access to every element though it's unfortunate that he didn't display some High Level Katon considering he battled both Kakuzu and Obito.
 

Icelerate

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Sannin level isn't different from kage level. Hebi Sasuke is clearly above jounin level therefore he's kage/Sannin level.
 

NarutoX28

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Sannin level isn't different from kage level. Hebi Sasuke is clearly above jounin level therefore he's kage/Sannin level.

Hidan is Sannin Level? Color me surprised.
 
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