[Theory] Hagoromo was unable to preform "Creation of All Things"...

[shawakaze]

Is it just me or does Hamura have Byakugan instead of Rinnengan?

 

[Shinato]

"when you combine two opposites it creates something strong" wasn't that written on the stone tablet? And didn't hagoromo try to avoid that because then people would just get consumed by power as his mother was?

Hagoromo if I remember correctly tried to discourage people from trying to gain opposite powers in his talk with Naruto about madara and the tablet.

and it's actually more complicated than that the rinnegan is solely a yin based eye as it gives you supernatural abilities not sure if this extends to the asura's path with machines but that's not humanly possible soooo yeah. The rinnegan itself is yin. Yin-yang requires both the physical and the spiritual in an equilibrium. Rinnegan is yin and the senjutsu you have is yang which affects your surroundings like the trees as seen with sage mode Naruto.

the problem with what you're saying is that everyone has yin and yang yes but not everyone can "correctly" utilize them or affect them as the sage and his brother did. Yin and yang is actually more complex than that. But it's understandable. Just because I have something doesn't mean I know everything about it like how to manipulate or if I'm strong enough too.

Madara stated that, by combining Yin and Yang, two opposites powers, peace can be formed. Though that he most likely got from the tablet, which was rewritten by Black Zetsu and we don't know if that is what Hagoromo actually meant. (It may be however.) Hagoromo said that in the past he entrusted everything up to one son, one power and that turned out bad. So this time he entrusted it to both "sons" and both powers in the hopes that the result would be different. If the two powers are contained within one person like Madara or Kaguya, they will be consumed by its power. That was stated by Itachi and Hagoromo, however that is why Hagoromo decided to entrust it to Sasuke and Naruto this time, as they only are one half of the power each, and together they are the whole power. Rinnegan is gained by combining Indra and Ashura's chakras, Yin and Yang. It was also not Sage Mode Naruto that affected the trees, that was Naruto using the chakra of Yang Kurama. In other words, it was the Yang power that affected the trees, not Sage Mode. The physical power, lifeforce of Kurama affected the nature. I said that everyone has Yin and Yang chakra, they all have lifeforce because that is what gives them life. They also have chakra gained from Hagoromo and Hamura through Kaguya and the Shinju. However, they do not have a perfect mix of it and that is why the Uchiha and Senju are different for example. The Senju has strong Yang, life forces while the Uchiha's has strong Yin, Spiritual Chakra. They do however have the other as well, if not then Senju's wouldn't be able to use Jutsu and the Uchiha's would be alive. Lee and Gai are examples of people with to little or no Yin chakra what so ever.

 

[Shinato]

We didn't get explanation though for what is "Yin chakra" and "Yang chakra".

What we know:
Chakra = Physical energy + Spiritual energy

Not so sure what makes chakra Yin or Yang.

Is Yang release uses Yang chakra? Yin release uses Yin chakra? Yin-Yang release uses both Yin and Yang chakra? These are the questions that we don't know the answer.

Yamato also implied about the manipulation of Yin and Yang is the source of non-elemental ninjutsu. Trollkage implied that genjutsu is Yin release jutsu. Naruto's KCM Yang chakra is able to grow trees out of Mokuton.

Chakra = Life Force (Physical Energy/Yang) + Imagination (Spiritual Power/Yin) Chakra is the concept of creating something from nothingness, and thus there are 3 different styles of using this. Genjutsu, which uses the Yin part as a majority to affect reality of its target in a form of imagination/illusion. Taijutsu, which uses the raw Physical Energy of the human body to inflict damage. Ninjutsu, which combines Imagination and Life Force to create a jutsu out of nothingness and give it temporary "life". Say Fire Release for example. Fire is "alive" in many way, but its only an element. One uses Chakra to give shape to one of the existing elements. Then we have Yin and Yang. Yin-Yang releases: A non-elemental style that uses the power of the user to alter reality and the physical world. Reality is after all just how we decide to see the world. (In many forms, it is imagination.)

 

[mzarif]

We never really got the explanation of how Yin and Yang chakra is created.

Here I just wanna share about the explanation of chakra throughout the manga:

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[Seventh Sama]

Let's call it plothole then?? Because BZ stated that they used shell of Juubi aka Gedo Mazo as core for Chibaku Tensei, but here Kurama states that Hago had it inside of him.. Or am I missing something?

Sage took the bijuu out of him leaving the mazo in him. He then created the moon as the mazo as it core and passed away. I think when juubi (kaguya) got defeated by hamura and the sage, she spawed BZ before she got sealed in hagoromo... I mean BZ is hinted to be around hagoromo when he was the juubi jin...

 

[Shinato]

Sage took the bijuu out of him leaving the mazo in him. He then created the moon as the mazo as it core and passed away. I think when juubi (kaguya) got defeated by hamura and the sage, she spawed BZ before she got sealed in hagoromo... I mean BZ is hinted to be around hagoromo when he was the juubi jin...

Yet, Black Zetsu stated that he was created when the Juubi was made into the core of the moon and that it was Hagoromo and Hamura that did that. Meaning that Hagoromo couldn't seal it by himself stating from what Black Zetsu did. Black Zetsu was around when Indra and Ashura grew up, meaning he was created before Hagoromo died. If that is the case, then he was created when Hamura and Hagoromo made the Juubi into the Core.

 

[Seventh Sama]

Yet, Black Zetsu stated that he was created when the Juubi was made into the core of the moon and that it was Hagoromo and Hamura that did that. Meaning that Hagoromo couldn't seal it by himself stating from what Black Zetsu did. Black Zetsu was around when Indra and Ashura grew up, meaning he was created before Hagoromo died. If that is the case, then he was created when Hamura and Hagoromo made the Juubi into the Core.

Hamura must've been an old fart if he sealed away the gedo mazo into the core .-.

 

[Shinato]

Hamura must've been an old fart if he sealed away the gedo mazo into the core .-.

What? Why would he need to be old?

 

[Seventh Sama]

What? Why would he need to be old?

Those scans I showed you that an old hagoromo still had the mazo in him after he took the bijuus out of him, hamura must've been around hagoromos age.

 

[mzarif]

Chakra = Life Force (Physical Energy/Yang) + Imagination (Spiritual Power/Yin)

I had always though of something like that. BUT... we don't have any explanation of that. Something like how much is the proportion of physical and spiritual energy needed.
Fukasaku when he trained Naruto said about "balance" of the energy to create chakra. Refer to the scan I posted.

Chakra is the concept of creating something from nothingness, and thus there are 3 different styles of using this.

This statement is wrong. Chakra - Physical + Spiritual energy

Genjutsu, which uses the Yin part as a majority to affect reality of its target in a form of imagination/illusion.

I already understand the logic of genjutsu being Yin release.

Taijutsu, which uses the raw Physical Energy of the human body to inflict damage.

Taijutsu had nothing to do with chakra. It uses "stamina", which is physical and spiritual energy unmixed.

Ninjutsu, which combines Imagination and Life Force to create a jutsu out of nothingness and give it temporary "life". Say Fire Release for example. Fire is "alive" in many way, but its only an element. One uses Chakra to give shape to one of the existing elements. Then we have Yin and Yang.

But there are Elemental Release, and Yin, Yang and Yin-Yang release.

Yin-Yang releases: A non-elemental style that uses the power of the user to alter reality and the physical world. Reality is after all just how we decide to see the world. (In many forms, it is imagination.)

I understand this.
Yin Release - create form out of nothing
Yang Release - breathe life into forms

 

[Shinato]

Those scans I showed you that an old hagoromo still had the mazo in him after he took the bijuus out of him, hamura must've been around hagoromos age.

No, those scans show Hagoromo talking with the Bijuu's. It may have been in the same type of location as he was talking with Naruto. (It was never explain, so there is no evidence for or against it.)

 

[Shinato]

Taijutsu had nothing to do with chakra. It uses "stamina", which is physical and spiritual energy unmixed.

Stamina/Life Force is Physical Energy. (It is Yang.)

 

[mzarif]

Stamina/Life Force is Physical Energy. (It is Yang.)

Stamina = Physical and spiritual energy unmixed

Chakra = Physical + spiritual energy (mixed)

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[KCMNaruto]

It is either on of these two options:

1) Both Hagoromo and Hamura possesed Yin and Yang powers but in different ratio(for example Hagoromo: 70%yang and 30%yin while Hamura: 30% yang and 70% yin) or other ratio.

2) Hagoromo had Yang power and Hamura had Yin power. Upon his death Hamura transfered his yin power to Hagoromo.

Either Way Hagoromo was capable of using COAT. in my opinion First option is most likely as both hagoromo and Hamura had strong body and eyes, so had to have yin and Yang powers present.

 

[Shinato]

It is either on of these two options:

1) Both Hagoromo and Hamura possesed Yin and Yang powers but in different ratio(for example Hagoromo: 70%yang and 30%yin while Hamura: 30% yang and 70% yin) or other ratio.

2) Hagoromo had Yang power and Hamura had Yin power. Upon his death Hamura transfered his yin power to Hagoromo.

Either Way Hagoromo was capable of using COAT. in my opinion First option is most likely as both hagoromo and Hamura had strong body and eyes, so had to have yin and Yang powers present.

But my theory states that one would need a perfect balance of Yin and Yang, which is why I said Hamura was needed as Hagoromo didn't have a perfect balance on his own.

 

[Shinato]

Hahaha,he has yin and yang which he gave to Naruto and Sasuke and those sysmbols weren't shown on Rikudou and his brother's hand in that chapter it was shown on Sasuke and Naruto's.

First of all, chapter 680 shows the Yang symbol on Hagoromo's right hand . (Same as Naruto's) Secondly, I wasn't the one who stated that it showed Hamura and Hagoromo's. (I stated that by logic, Hamura would have it on his left like Sasuke.) I also stated that everyone has Yin/Yang, but that doesn't mean that everyone can use COAT. Which is why we are discussing whenever if Hagoromo had less Yin than Yang, while Hamura had less Yang than Yin and together they balanced each other to use COAT.

 

[KCMNaruto]

But my theory states that one would need a perfect balance of Yin and Yang, which is why I said Hamura was needed as Hagoromo didn't have a perfect balance on his own.

Well then it is possible you are wrong. Just keep in mind that Tailed beasts created by Hagoromo are not equal in power/ amount of chakra, Doesn't it suggest you anything ?

My tip: Maybe Hagoromo used COAT with imperfect balance of his Yin and yang so that what happened...

Sumarizing, what you said would be true if Hagoromo created all Tailed beasts with same amount of chakra with Full Ten tails chakra being split equally among all tailed beasts.

 

[Shinato]

Well then it is possible you are wrong. Just keep in mind that Tailed beasts created by Hagoromo are not equal in power/ amount of chakra, Doesn't it suggest you anything ?

My tip: Maybe Hagoromo used COAT with imperfect balance of his Yin and yang so that what happened...

Sumarizing, what you said would be true if Hagoromo created all Tailed beasts with same amount of chakra with Full Ten tails chakra being split equally among all tailed beasts.

I never stated that I couldn't be wrong, infact I stated several times throughout this thread that I may very well be wrong. (Which is why I like theories so much, because they can be wrong.)

 

[Madara mhm]

Hagoromo can use COAT, He's mastered both Yin and yang, - Yin-yang release, which is a must for COAT.

 

[blue22]

great thread and even more impressive might've been your willingness to continue to argue about it, i personally think your right on your overall concept, but the more intricate details are off;

-i agree that both hamura and hagorama are needed to perform COAT
-i agree that hagorama definitely has the full moon marking on his hand (i believe its a full moon not sun)
-i agree that the tailed beasts were made only using the full moon marking (breathing life)
-i agree that hamura most likely has the cresent moon on his hand
-both markings are needed to perform COAT
-however, i believe that both hagorama and hamura both had 50/50 ying yang chakra, and then their desendents (ashura and indra) then had the chakra split, my reasoning being that if hagorama had more yang chakra then yin, then it should've been ashura that was stronger then indra because he would've gotten the bigger half, but instead they were equal, implying that they each got half of hagorama's power

OT: like you, the hardest part to this theory being correct that id have to prove is the fact that hagorama gave sasuke and nartuo both markings, which implies somehow he had access to both, which we have yet to be able to figure out, but im sure the answer will come eventually
OT2: i really liked your use of obito for the end of the manga, i hope kishi uses him just like you said he would be