[Theory] Hagoromo was unable to preform "Creation of All Things"...

[Mikeuhsomething36]

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so uh TC want to repeat what you said now?

and nah they should both have it I doubt hamura did that. As it's stated the sages sons got their abilities from hagoromo himself not hamura. So most likely they both had it if hamura did give something to hagoromo it is most likely his yin and yang so hagoromo can use his on a larger scale think of it as an EMS to get it you need another mangekyou to use your abilities on a larger scale such as sasuke's susano became stronger after getting itachi's eyes.

not sure why people assume this hagoromo is both yin (has the eyes and spiritual capabilities) and yang (physical power was high as seen with Naruto). Hamura has the eyes and spiritual prowess (being kaguya's son and byakugan) and most likely the physical prowess and body as he also got power from the fruit.

imo they both have it

 

[IceLolly]

I will repeat myself. Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi within the Moon, and at the time Hagoromo became the Jin of the Juubi's chakra, while Hamura died of unknown means. (That has already been confirmed) Hagoromo did most likely create the 9 Bijuu's sometime around his death, but not using COAT. As they already had shapes in the form of chakra within him, meaning that Yin wasn't needed to create them, only Yang. (There is also the theory that Hagoromo gained Hamura's Yin powers after his death however.) Also, Orange Hokage, you would agree with me if I had an entire thread saying; "Naruto is the best." Right?

I don't agree with you in this one. Chakra that Hagoromo had inside of him had shape: the Gedo Mazo. But it got sealed away So inside of Hagoromo it was just huge amount of chakra imho.

 

[Shinato]

It doesn't take a genius to read grammar it's fine. Unless I have to break it down to you but I don't feel like talking down on someone. And now you're just assuming thing you're implying that because he has the rimnegan he can use IZANAGI where is your manga fact that negato could use it?

furthermore it's the powers of illusion (yin) yin is spiritual, then bringing life into it (yang) which affects the physical world you have yet to properly disprove anything I said instead you base whatever argument you used on assumptions and made up facts. I'm using the manga as a source and if you actually read amy wiki it says you need the sharnningan for izanagi....

I am not assuming things, I am stating things that has no proof. The wiki is faulty in many areas, which is why people don't use it as proof. Besides that, what I said, and this time read it before commenting. The Rinnegan is a an evolution of the Sharingan, in other words, the Rinnegan is the Sharingan and a user can swap between them, if they were the one to awaken it like Madara. Izanagi is a jutsu created by using the power of the Sharingan, that is proof. However, Madara was able to use Sharingan abilities while having his Rinnegan activated, not his Sharingan. That is why its a vauge area if the user is able to use Sharingan jutsus while the Rinnegan is activated. (The manga isn't clear about that.) Which is why I said, Nagato may had been able to use Izanagi if he knew about it. (If you were using the manga as a source, then would have known that already.) Yin is spiritual power, in other words chakra. Yang is physical power, in other words lifeforce.

 

[Shinato]

I don't buy this. He could not have sealed off Kaguya, nor create the bijuus w/o Banbutsu Sozo.

Did you read it? I stated that COAT an only be performed by two people. So Kaguya was sealed away by Hamura and Hagoromo and Hagoromo used Yang release to give life to the chakra within him.

 

[Seventh Sama]

I will repeat myself. Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi within the Moon, and at the time Hagoromo became the Jin of the Juubi's chakra, while Hamura died of unknown means. (That has already been confirmed) Hagoromo did most likely create the 9 Bijuu's sometime around his death, but not using COAT. As they already had shapes in the form of chakra within him, meaning that Yin wasn't needed to create them, only Yang. (There is also the theory that Hagoromo gained Hamura's Yin powers after his death however.) Also, Orange Hokage, you would agree with me if I had an entire thread saying; "Naruto is the best." Right?

The gedo mazo was still in the sage....

Spoiler

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So sage couldn't be host of just the juubis chakra.

Spoiler

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I think the translations you have might be mistranslated. Cos mp and ms claimed the juubi was sealed in both of hagoromo and hamura, while the viz said the juubi was just sealed in hagoromo. I'd just wait for the viz scan for the newest chap.. And yes naruto is the best :3

 

[Shinato]

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so uh TC want to repeat what you said now?

and nah they should both have it I doubt hamura did that. As it's stated the sages sons got their abilities from hagoromo himself not hamura. So most likely they both had it if hamura did give something to hagoromo it is most likely his yin and yang so hagoromo can use his on a larger scale think of it as an EMS to get it you need another mangekyou to use your abilities on a larger scale such as sasuke's susano became stronger after getting itachi's eyes.

not sure why people assume this hagoromo is both yin (has the eyes and spiritual capabilities) and yang (physical power was high as seen with Naruto). Hamura has the eyes and spiritual prowess (being kaguya's son and byakugan) and most likely the physical prowess and body as he also got power from the fruit.

imo they both have it

I have already commented on the Izanagi part above this post. The very fact to this is that to this point it all remain theories, your ideal and my ideal. Neither is fact nor proof, for all we know there may be a completely different thing going on. That is whey theories are such fun, they bring new ideas to life and with every faulty theory we get closer to what may be the fact. However, it cannot be proven right until Kishi says so. The reason I didn't comment on your comment is that I have already stated against this.

 

[IceLolly]

The gedo mazo was still in the sage....

Spoiler

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So sage couldn't be host of just the juubis chakra.

Spoiler

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I think the translations you have might be mistranslated. Cos mp and ms claimed the juubi was sealed in both of hagoromo and hamura, while the viz said the juubi was just sealed in hagoromo. I'd just wait for the viz scan for the newest chap.. And yes naruto is the best :3

Let's call it plothole then?? Because BZ stated that they used shell of Juubi aka Gedo Mazo as core for Chibaku Tensei, but here Kurama states that Hago had it inside of him.. Or am I missing something?

 

[Mikeuhsomething36]

I do get what you're saying though TC

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But what if hagoromo and his brother had different variants of the creation of all things. We don't even know hamura like that. We can't assume anything since we don't know anything of his prowess for all we know hagoromo really could use creation of all things and hamura could have had a different variant.

a different variant of creation of all thing? What?" ik far fetched but not exactly impossible. Remember hagoromo and his cool bro sealed the juubi in the moon. PART of it in the moon the other part he sealed it within him and his bro. Is it possible hamura was the expert at sealing jutsu? Probably hamura had another variant of COT. It's also possible hamura had a completely different arsenal altogether.

we don't know anything about hamura so we can only imply. We never saw hagoromo's left hand, we never seen hamura's left hand, etc. We can't talk about anything about hamura as if they were fact but we can predict. I think hamura had a completely different arsenal.

COT is powerful yes but think of who they are facing, kaguya herself. Sage already said kaguya was stronger than him and if the sage can do it then kaguya can most likely do it I'm not implying she can but bz did say she is the progenitor of chakra. So hagoromo had the creation of all things and hamura may have been the sealing expert and hagoromo used COT to augment his brother's abilities. Leave it to kishi it'd be too cliché if hagoromo was tin and his brother was yang. I think hamura had a different arsenal

 

[Shinato]

The gedo mazo was still in the sage....

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

So sage couldn't be host of just the juubis chakra.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

I think the translations you have might be mistranslated. Cos mp and ms claimed the juubi was sealed in both of hagoromo and hamura, while the viz said the juubi was just sealed in hagoromo. I'd just wait for the viz scan for the newest chap.. And yes naruto is the best :3

Then that is contradictions, unless the translations are off. But based of the ones we have now, its contradiction. The newest chapter stated that Hagoromo and Hamura sealed off the Juubi, and that Kaguya was atleast part of the Juubi. It was also stated that the Juubi was sealed withing the Moon by the two sons of Kaguya, but the chakra of the Bijuus comes from the Juubi. But we will have to wait for Viz then. If you mean Naruto is the best, then I do find it a tad strange that you rarely agree with me on things. (I do prefer the Uchiha, mainly based of personal history an their designs. That and I love eye powers. But I do not carry any hate towards any characters and I do actually like Naruto when he is fighting. He is slightly annoying outside of fights though.)

 

[IceLolly]

Any thought about my theory with shiki fuujin?? Or am I far too off?

 

[mzarif]

I will repeat myself. Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi within the Moon, and at the time Hagoromo became the Jin of the Juubi's chakra, while Hamura died of unknown means. (That has already been confirmed) Hagoromo did most likely create the 9 Bijuu's sometime around his death, but not using COAT. As they already had shapes in the form of chakra within him, meaning that Yin wasn't needed to create them, only Yang. (There is also the theory that Hagoromo gained Hamura's Yin powers after his death however.) Also, Orange Hokage, you would agree with me if I had an entire thread saying; "Naruto is the best." Right?

Like I said, the last chapter doesn't really indicate what you are saying. It's still ambiguous. So I'll believe Obito and stone tablet.

Now this whole thing is actually quite confusing. First Indra + Ashura chakra (Yin + Yang) = Hagoromo. And that's how Madara awoke the Rinnegan. It's like the purple Rinnegan is not a Yin ability but both Yin and Yang.

Remember also the fact that whoever possessed the purple Rinnegan able to use all 5 basic elements of ninjutsu. And we know that Yin-Yang release (Onmyouton/Inyouton) can nullify ninjutsu. See the correlation there.

Rinnegan - all ninjutsus of the 5 basic elements
Yin-Yang release - nullify ninjutsus

Then that is contradictions, unless the translations are off. But based of the ones we have now, its contradiction. The newest chapter stated that Hagoromo and Hamura sealed off the Juubi, and that Kaguya was atleast part of the Juubi. It was also stated that the Juubi was sealed withing the Moon by the two sons of Kaguya, but the chakra of the Bijuus comes from the Juubi. But we will have to wait for Viz then. If you mean Naruto is the best, then I do find it a tad strange that you rarely agree with me on things. (I do prefer the Uchiha, mainly based of personal history an their designs. That and I love eye powers. But I do not carry any hate towards any characters and I do actually like Naruto when he is fighting. He is slightly annoying outside of fights though.)

I don't really find the new chapter contradicts anything. But it's ambiguous though, the way BZ told the story.

 

[Mikeuhsomething36]

Understanding calculus>understanding Naruto.

kishi has an odd way of applying things if what TC says is true in future mangas I have no problem with admitting I was wrong. But I will still say that the way I explained it is more efficient and realistic.

in any case watch your backs for black zetsu base

 

[Seventh Sama]

Then that is contradictions, unless the translations are off. But based of the ones we have now, its contradiction. The newest chapter stated that Hagoromo and Hamura sealed off the Juubi, and that Kaguya was atleast part of the Juubi. It was also stated that the Juubi was sealed withing the Moon by the two sons of Kaguya, but the chakra of the Bijuus comes from the Juubi. But we will have to wait for Viz then. If you mean Naruto is the best, then I do find it a tad strange that you rarely agree with me on things. (I do prefer the Uchiha, mainly based of personal history an their designs. That and I love eye powers. But I do not carry any hate towards any characters and I do actually like Naruto when he is fighting. He is slightly annoying outside of fights though.)

Yeah, either bad translation or kishi retcon the whole thing .-. and we all have different opinions on such.

 

[Shinato]

Like I said, the last chapter doesn't really indicate what you are saying. It's still ambiguous. So I'll believe Obito and stone tablet.

Now this whole thing is actually quite confusing. First Indra + Ashura chakra (Yin + Yang) = Hagoromo. And that's how Madara awoke the Rinnegan. It's like the purple Rinnegan is not a Yin ability but both Yin and Yang.

Remember also the fact that whoever possessed the purple Rinnegan able to use all 5 basic elements of ninjutsu. And we know that Yin-Yang release (Onmyouton/Inyouton) can nullify ninjutsu. See the correlation there.

Rinnegan - all ninjutsus of the 5 basic elements
Yin-Yang release - nullify ninjutsus



I don't really find the new chapter contradicts anything. But it's ambiguous though, the way BZ told the story.

The only problem to this is that all shinobi have Yin and Yang chakra, that is the basis if Ninjutus after all. (Genjutsu is spiritual power, Taijutsu is physical and Ninjutsu/Ninshuu is the combination of these two.) That is why I said that COAT in a lesser form is Ninjutsu/Ninshuu and why Hagoromo wanted to unite the world under it like he and his brother had done. (He had seen it with his own eyes that combining two opposites will create something strong, such as peace.) I chose not to believe in Obito and the stone tablet, as the tablet has been altered and messed with, and Obito's stories are based of Madara's and the Tablet. Madara was proven wrong on almost every single point he has ever stated.

 

[mzarif]

The only problem to this is that all shinobi have Yin and Yang chakra, that is the basis if Ninjutus after all. (Genjutsu is spiritual power, Taijutsu is physical and Ninjutsu/Ninshuu is the combination of these two.) That is why I said that COAT in a lesser form is Ninjutsu/Ninshuu and why Hagoromo wanted to unite the world under it like he and his brother had done. (He had seen it with his own eyes that combining two opposites will create something strong, such as peace.) I chose not to believe in Obito and the stone tablet, as the tablet has been altered and messed with, and Obito's stories are based of Madara's and the Tablet. Madara was proven wrong on almost every single point he has ever stated.

But how can you not believe in what Kurama said?

 

[Shinato]

But how can you not believe in what Kurama said?

Because Black Zetsu just said that the Juubi itself was created into the core of the Moon by Hamura and Hagoromo. (At this time Kurama didn't even exist.) This is how Black Zetsu was created and I doubt that he is mistaken about he was created. Kurama stated that the Juubi's Jin still had the Gedo, not Hagoromo specifically. Hagoromo stated that the Juubi was sealed within him and Black Zetsu states that it was sealed within the Moon. Its 3 different stories. (Either which one can be true, but I believe that Black Zetsu's is more likely.)

 

[Solog0d]

actually you're wrong, its stated he use COAT.

 

[Shinato]

actually you're wrong, its stated he use COAT.

It was stated by Obito, who also says that Hagoromo defeated the Juubi and sealed it within the moon alone. Yet in the newest chapter it was stated that it was Hagoromo and Hamura. Now again, tell me how that proves me directly wrong.

 

[Mikeuhsomething36]

"when you combine two opposites it creates something strong" wasn't that written on the stone tablet? And didn't hagoromo try to avoid that because then people would just get consumed by power as his mother was?

Hagoromo if I remember correctly tried to discourage people from trying to gain opposite powers in his talk with Naruto about madara and the tablet.

and it's actually more complicated than that the rinnegan is solely a yin based eye as it gives you supernatural abilities not sure if this extends to the asura's path with machines but that's not humanly possible soooo yeah. The rinnegan itself is yin. Yin-yang requires both the physical and the spiritual in an equilibrium. Rinnegan is yin and the senjutsu you have is yang which affects your surroundings like the trees as seen with sage mode Naruto.

the problem with what you're saying is that everyone has yin and yang yes but not everyone can "correctly" utilize them or affect them as the sage and his brother did. Yin and yang is actually more complex than that. But it's understandable. Just because I have something doesn't mean I know everything about it like how to manipulate or if I'm strong enough too.

 

[mzarif]

We didn't get explanation though for what is "Yin chakra" and "Yang chakra".

What we know:
Chakra = Physical energy + Spiritual energy

Not so sure what makes chakra Yin or Yang.

Is Yang release uses Yang chakra? Yin release uses Yin chakra? Yin-Yang release uses both Yin and Yang chakra? These are the questions that we don't know the answer.

Yamato also implied about the manipulation of Yin and Yang is the source of non-elemental ninjutsu. Trollkage implied that genjutsu is Yin release jutsu. Naruto's KCM Yang chakra is able to grow trees out of Mokuton.