Hagoromo/Hamura vs Kaguya/Juubi is a really weird and inconsistently written fight

God Of NarutoBase

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jun 25, 2016
Messages
677
Kin
21💸
Kumi
12💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
Hagoromo and Hamura used their six path sealing technique to seal the juubi who kaguya fused with (unknown to them). The seal separated chakra from the juubi and sealed off the chakra-less husk with chibaku tensei. Hagoromo then further sealed the separated chakra inside of him (becoming a jinchuuriki), while hamura gave hagoromo his six paths yin seal and went to the moon to guard the ten-tails body.

At his deathbed, hagoromo became concerned that the chakra may reunite with the body, thereby reviving the ten-tails, so he split the chakra into nine unequal parts and used the Creation of all Things technique to give them independent life and spread them around the world. That way they'd remain separated enough for the ten-tails to forever lack the chance of revival. But Black Sperm ruined his plans...
 
  • Angry
Reactions: minamoto
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
328
Kin
926💸
Kumi
654💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Hagoromo and Hamura used their six path sealing technique to seal the juubi who kaguya fused with (unknown to them). The seal separated chakra from the juubi and sealed off the chakra-less husk with chibaku tensei. Hagoromo then further sealed the separated chakra inside of him (becoming a jinchuuriki), while hamura gave hagoromo his six paths yin seal and went to the moon to guard the ten-tails body.

At his deathbed, hagoromo became concerned that the chakra may reunite with the body, thereby reviving the ten-tails, so he split the chakra into nine unequal parts and used the Creation of all Things technique to give them independent life and spread them around the world. That way they'd remain separated enough for the ten-tails to forever lack the chance of revival. But Black Sperm ruined his plans...
Nope. This explanation still doesn't resolve the plothole.

Here is why:
Kurama directly implied that Hagoromo had the gedou mazou inside of him even after extracting the bijuus from himself. That wouldn't be possible if Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the mazou inside of the moon during the fight.

See these scans:
 

Attachments

  • Haha
Reactions: minamoto

God Of NarutoBase

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jun 25, 2016
Messages
677
Kin
21💸
Kumi
12💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
Nope. This explanation still doesn't resolve the plothole.

Here is why:
Kurama directly implied that Hagoromo had the gedou mazou inside of him even after extracting the bijuus from himself. That wouldn't be possible if Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the mazou inside of the moon during the fight.

See these scans:
Then Plot-hole is the only explanation. Kishi really messed up the last arc...
 

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Nope. This explanation still doesn't resolve the plothole.

Here is why:
Kurama directly implied that Hagoromo had the gedou mazou inside of him even after extracting the bijuus from himself. That wouldn't be possible if Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the mazou inside of the moon during the fight.

See these scans:
The answer is even simpler if you follow the chain of events. The two beat the 10 tails and the Yin yang seals suppressed the 10 tails Rinne sharingan power, then it was sealed in Hogaromo. If you go back to the fight with Kaguya the Rinne Sharingan closes after the seals are placed on Kaguya (shut off of her power). The seals then return to Hogaromo and he performs the jutsu or something. In other words, BZ's version seems inconsistent due to him becoming Kaguya's will (asspull).

Anyway, deathbed Hogaromo likely needed help to launch the Mezo into space, and Hamura steps in to help with that, while taking his family to the moon.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
328
Kin
926💸
Kumi
654💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
The answer is even simpler if you follow the chain of events. The two beat the 10 tails and the Yin yang seals suppressed the 10 tails Rinne sharingan power, then it was sealed in Hogaromo. If you go back to the fight with Kaguya the Rinne Sharingan closes after the seals are placed on Kaguya (shut off of her power). The seals then return to Hogaromo and he performs the jutsu or something. In other words, BZ's version seems inconsistent due to him becoming Kaguya's will (asspull).

Anyway, deathbed Hogaromo likely needed help to launch the Mezo into space, and Hamura steps in to help with that, while taking his family to the moon.
I'm not sure that I follow you. The issue here has nothing to do with Kaguya's rinnesharingan.

The plothole emerges specifically from the manga's insinuation that Hagoromo and Hamura used rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of the fight with their mother and/or the juubi.

To give a very simple TLDR explanation of why the usage of rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of the fight creates a plothole:

1. If we say that the bros used chibaku tensei on humanoid Kaguya at the end of the fight while the juubi was sealed inside of Hagoromo, then how did the mazou get into the moon? Even if rikudou chibaku tensei was used a second time at the end of Hagoromo's life span in order to seal the mazou in another moon, then shouldn't the earth have two moons (one from when humanoid Kaguya was sealed and one for the mazou)?

2. If instead, we say that the bros used rikudou chibaku tensei on the actual juubi (the monster) at the end of the fight, then when does that leave room for Hagoromo to become the juubi's jinchuuriki and subsequently split the juubi up into the bijuus and the mazou? You also can't say that the bros sealed the mazou inside of the moon while sealing just the chakara inside of Hagoromo because I already proved in my previous post with the Kurama scans that Hagoromo was supposed to have had the whole juubi inside of himself (including the mazou).

Option number 1 actually has two escape routes, but neither the manga nor even the anime imply either route to have been taken, and the anime actually even directly contradicted one of the escape routes.

The two escape routes are:

1. The bros did seal humanoid Kaguya via rikudou chibaku tensei, but this took place in one of Kaguya's dimensions (so the earth did not actually get a moon from this). Then later on Hagoromo's death bed (at which point Hagoromo presumably had both the yin and yang seals), Hagoromo used rikudou chibaku tensei again to seal the mazou inside of a moon (this time on Earth).

2. Alternatively, it could be said that the bros sealed humanoid Kaguya via rikudou chibaku tensei on Earth, and then later on Hagoromo's death bed, he used some sort of transportation jutsu to warp the mazou up to the interior of the moon which had already been created upon the sealing of the humanoid Kaguya.

Unfortunately, neither of these escape routes seem to be the case.

Edit: I didn't see that last part of your post before. This seems to happen with your posts a lot for some reason. It often happens that I will first see your post and reply, and then some last part to your post (that previously wasn't visible to me) will show up in your quote only after I have already replied.

Anyway, my response remains more or less the same. It would make sense if what you say is correct, and the bros used rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of Hagoromo's life span. However, several panels throughout the fight with Kaguya insinuate that the bros used the rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of the fight (not the end of Hagoromo's life span).
 
Last edited:

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
@Sarada got pantsed I'm not typing up a wall of text, lol.

The problem is I think you're not seeing that the seals actually seal Kaguya. The Rinne Sharingan being sealed is Kaguya being sealed. She's no longer alive or actice (mentally she's locked away) if you catch my drift. Therefore, nothing in the manga points to them using Yin Yang Chikabu Tensei at that moment. Rather the only proof we have is them using Yin Yang seal and sealing her power. We know Hogaromo housed the 10 tails, but without Kaguya's will there (sealed away via yin yang seal), otherwise he would've known it was his mother. That is why I try and reconcile between the two events. Definite statements and showings from Hogaromo, Kurama, and the battle with Kaguya.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
328
Kin
926💸
Kumi
654💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
@Sarada got pantsed I'm not typing up a wall of text, lol.

The problem is I think you're not seeing that the seals actually seal Kaguya. The Rinne Sharingan being sealed is Kaguya being sealed. She's no longer alive or actice (mentally she's locked away) if you catch my drift. Therefore, nothing in the manga points to them using Yin Yang Chikabu Tensei at that moment. Rather the only proof we have is them using Yin Yang seal and sealing her power. We know Hogaromo housed the 10 tails, but without Kaguya's will there (sealed away via yin yang seal), otherwise he would've known it was his mother. That is why I try and reconcile between the two events. Definite statements and showings from Hogaromo, Kurama, and the battle with Kaguya.
Sorry, but I don't feel that you are making much sense in this case.

Firstly, we do have proof that rikudou chibaku tensei was used at the end of that fight (as opposed to the end of Hagoromo's lifespan).

Here:
You must be registered to see images


We can directly see Hagoromo and Hamura (as young men, not as old men at the end of their lives) applying rikudou chibaku tensei. There are other scans as well throughout the fight that imply and emphasize this point.

Secondly, you seem to be implying that the yin and yang seal can be used to only seal one's power without sealing them into a moon. However, we have seen no proof or insinuation of this notion in the manga, data book, or even the anime. We have seen but two powers of the yin and yang seal. Those are:

1. The healing power that Naruto used.
2. Rikudou chibaku tensei

The databook lets us know that the rikudou chibaku tensei actually does 3 things:

1. It seals the rinnesharingan
2. It extracts the victim's chakara
3. It turns the victim into the core of chibaku tensei and seals them into a moon.

We have never been given any indication that the yin and yang seals can do numbers 1 and 2 without doing number 3 as well.

Thirdly, where are you getting the notion that the rinnesharingan being sealed is the same as Kaguya being sealed? That is like saying that sealing an Uchiha's eyes is the same as sealing the whole Uchiha themselves. The rinnesharingan is simply a dojutsu (a very powerful one, but still a dojutsu nonetheless). Just sealing that alone does not remove Kaguya's consciousness or will (not to mention the rest of her power such as her other kekkei morra).

Think about it this way: If Sasuke's eyes were sealed, Sasuke wouldn't just suddenly cease to function. He'd be much weaker yes, but he could still move around, think, fight with other jutsu, etc...
 

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Sorry, but I don't feel that you are making much sense in this case.

Firstly, we do have proof that rikudou chibaku tensei was used at the end of that fight (as opposed to the end of Hagoromo's lifespan).

Here:
You must be registered to see images


We can directly see Hagoromo and Hamura (as young men, not as old men at the end of their lives) applying rikudou chibaku tensei. There are other scans as well throughout the fight that imply and emphasize this point.

Secondly, you seem to be implying that the yin and yang seal can be used to only seal one's power without sealing them into a moon. However, we have seen no proof or insinuation of this notion in the manga, data book, or even the anime. We have seen but two powers of the yin and yang seal. Those are:

1. The healing power that Naruto used.
2. Rikudou chibaku tensei

The databook lets us know that the rikudou chibaku tensei actually does 3 things:

1. It seals the rinnesharingan
2. It extracts the victim's chakara
3. It turns the victim into the core of chibaku tensei and seals them into a moon.

We have never been given any indication that the yin and yang seals can do numbers 1 and 2 without doing number 3 as well.

Thirdly, where are you getting the notion that the rinnesharingan being sealed is the same as Kaguya being sealed? That is like saying that sealing an Uchiha's eyes is the same as sealing the whole Uchiha themselves. The rinnesharingan is simply a dojutsu (a very powerful one, but still a dojutsu nonetheless). Just sealing that alone does not remove Kaguya's consciousness or will (not to mention the rest of her power such as her other kekkei morra).

Think about it this way: If Sasuke's eyes were sealed, Sasuke wouldn't just suddenly cease to function. He'd be much weaker yes, but he could still move around, think, fight with other jutsu, etc...
That's not true.

It was Hogaromo who extracted the chakra and finished the Chibaku tensei. You even see him form the hand seal for Chibaku Tensei.

You must be registered for see images
You clearly see the seals (Yin Yang) return to Hagaromo's hands and he performs the CT, even ripping the tailed beasts out of Kaguga. He says time to retrieve them. Oh and you see Jyubi Kaguya without the rinne Sharingan.

It's kind of obvious what actually happened there. As for your claim of indications, then we know that's what happened since we know Hogaromo was the host of the 10 tails confirmed by both him and Kurama.

The 3rd point is addressed below.

Kaguya's will is tied to the Rinne Sharingan or the shinju. And the fruit must bloom for the rinne to be activated. Anyway, the moment Madara absorbed it he heard Kaguya's will and gained the rinne Sharingan. When the Rinne sharingan wasnt there, Kaguya wasn't there. And if she was there Hogaromo would've known about her, and not for his entire life believed he sealed the Jyubi.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
328
Kin
926💸
Kumi
654💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
That's not true.

It was Hogaromo who extracted the chakra and finished the Chibaku tensei. You even see him form the hand seal for Chibaku Tensei.

You must be registered for see images
You clearly see the seals (Yin Yang) return to Hagaromo's hands and he performs the CT, even ripping the tailed beasts out of Kaguga. He says time to retrieve them. Oh and you see Jyubi Kaguya without the rinne Sharingan.

It's kind of obvious what actually happened there. As for your claim of indications, then we know that's what happened since we know Hogaromo was the host of the 10 tails confirmed by both him and Kurama.

The 3rd point is addressed below.

Kaguya's will is tied to the Rinne Sharingan or the shinju. And the fruit must bloom for the rinne to be activated. Anyway, the moment Madara absorbed it he heard Kaguya's will and gained the rinne Sharingan. When the Rinne sharingan wasnt there, Kaguya wasn't there. And if she was there Hogaromo would've known about her, and not for his entire life believed he sealed the Jyubi.
I will respond to this a little later because I am sleepy since it is past 1:00 am where I am, and the reply I have in mind will probably just end up becoming another wall of text which I am too tired to write right now. Good night for now.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
328
Kin
926💸
Kumi
654💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
That's not true.

It was Hogaromo who extracted the chakra and finished the Chibaku tensei. You even see him form the hand seal for Chibaku Tensei.

You must be registered for see images
You clearly see the seals (Yin Yang) return to Hagaromo's hands and he performs the CT, even ripping the tailed beasts out of Kaguga. He says time to retrieve them. Oh and you see Jyubi Kaguya without the rinne Sharingan.

It's kind of obvious what actually happened there. As for your claim of indications, then we know that's what happened since we know Hogaromo was the host of the 10 tails confirmed by both him and Kurama.

The 3rd point is addressed below.

Kaguya's will is tied to the Rinne Sharingan or the shinju. And the fruit must bloom for the rinne to be activated. Anyway, the moment Madara absorbed it he heard Kaguya's will and gained the rinne Sharingan. When the Rinne sharingan wasnt there, Kaguya wasn't there. And if she was there Hogaromo would've known about her, and not for his entire life believed he sealed the Jyubi.
Okay, I'm awake. Anyway...

You are attributing way too much to Hagoromo. Here is the sequence of panels that led up to the panel you posted:

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images


First of all, Hagoromo is not necessary to "finish" the chibaku tensei because we already see that deity or buddha like thing making the seal for chibaku tensei. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke clearly shout "Six Paths Catastrophic Planetary Construction". They wouldn't shout that if all they were doing was sealing the rinne sharingan. It wouldn't even be chibaku tensei in that case. (By the way, I am not denying that the rinnesharingan was sealed. I'm just saying that this is not all that happens).

Secondly, yes the seals returned to Hagoromo's hands, but that wasn't for Hagoromo to "finish" the technique. The seals returned to Hagoromo's hands as a sign to Hagoromo that Naruto and Sasuke had finished the job. The seals were never supposed to be permanent powerups for Naruto and Sasuke. For Naruto and Sasuke, the seals ran on a "you have it until you use this one technique" type of deal. Naruto and Sasuke used the technique, and then lost the seals. It is as simple as that.

Third of all, apparently the data book itself actually states that rikudou chibaku tensei does the 3 things that I listed before (sealing the rinnesharingan, extracting the victim's chakara, and sealing the victim into a moon).

Fourth, yes we do see Hagoromo make that hand seal, but that hand seal is not exclusive to chibaku tensei, and Hagoromo says that it is time to bring them back while making that hand seal. What I am touting is that when Hagoromo made that seal, Hagoromo was just molding and preparing his chakara for summoning team 7, the bijuus and Madara back from the dimension. We have actually seen the juubi making that same hand seal even for just gathering chakara.


Fifth, even if we ignore points one through four and we do as you are saying and attribute everything to Hagoromo (the sealing of the rinnesharingan, the extraction of chakara, and the chibaku tensei itself), then it would make no sense whatsoever for Hagoromo and Hamura to just seal the rinnesharingan and not do the chakara extraction and sealing into the moon. Think about it:

Hagoromo and Hamura touch the juubi with the seals right?
Okay, so they seal the rinnesharingan... Now why wouldn't they subsequently extract the chakara and then dispose of the empty shell into the moon? Why go through the trouble of housing the juubi when Hagoromo could have just taken out its chakara, gotten rid of the shell, and just split the chakara into the bijuus at a later time?

Finally, it really makes no sense for Kaguya's will to be tied to the rinnesharingan. Hagoromo would have not "known that the juubi was his mother" even if the rinnesharingan had not been sealed. We know this because in the 4th great ninja war, the juubi clearly still had the rinnesharingan, yet it was beastial and there was no sign of Kaguya's will until Madara absorbed the divine tree (in which we saw not just the appirition of the rinnesharingan, but even Kaguya's byakugan as well). Also, Madara did not awaken the rinnesharingan "as soon as he absorbed the tree". He awakened it after he got his other rinnegan back and approached the moon. This took place a good while after he absorbed the tree. Madara even fought a brief skirmish with Naruto and Sasuke, went to go get his rinnegan, and then even had another brief skirmish with team 7.
 

Urda

Active member
Supreme
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
23,635
Kin
2,210💸
Kumi
7,699💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
That image that you claim that I put out of context speaks for itself. It is Kaguya herself remembering being sealed by a young Hagoromo and Hamura.

Just to make sure that we are both talking about the same image (because I honestly think that you are referring to a different image from the one that I am referencing), I am talking about this image:

You must be registered to see images


Now, can you honestly sit there and tell me that Hagoromo and Hamura are not using rikudou chibaku tensei in the above image (especially considering that we see Naruto and Sasuke doing the exact same thing in the lower image, and we know for sure that this was when Naruto and Sasuke sealed Kaguya away)?

Also, primary and secondary sources do matter. You acting as if it doesn't matter on the grounds that "all of it is information from the manga" is like insinuating that a character can never be wrong (even when we know that canonically in universe, said character was deceived or manipulated). I get that characters speak for the author, but at the same time, there are times where a character is revealed to have been misled, deceived, to have misunderstood, etc... We have seen so many instances of this in the Naruto manga.

Examples:

Itachi was convinced that Madara stole Izuna's eyes and that Madara was the one who attacked Konoha with Kurama and helped out with the Uchiha massacre. He told all of this information to Sasuke, and to us the readers. This was "information from the manga" as you put it. Yet, we later find out that Itachi was simply wrong. Madara did not steal Izuna's eyes. Izuna willingly gave his eyes to Madara as he was about to die. Also, it was Obito, not Madara, who attacked Konoha with Kurama and who helped out with the Uchiha clan massacre. Itachi (along with most people) was simply deceived by Obito.

Going even further back in the series, Kakashi once said that the sharingan was derived from the byakugan. Was that not "information from the manga" as well? Yet, we came to learn that this is not correct. Yes, both dojutsu have origins with the Otsutsuki clan, but the sharingan did not derive from the byakugan. It was a dilution of Kaguya's rinnesharingan which she awakened as a result of eating the chakara fruit.

Even Hagoromo himself has been proven to be wrong on occasion or unaware of something, as he was not even aware that Kaguya was the juubi. He believed that the juubi was the divine tree that was fighting to reclaim its fruit.


So yeah... It definitely matters whether the character is a primary or secondary source, or whether or not that character was manipulated/deceived by someone, or whether there is just something that the character doesn't know, etc...

Anyway, let me show you how the timeline of events for Obito's explanation and the timeline of events for Black Zetsu's explanation contradict each other:

According to Obito, Hagoromo fought the juubi, sealed it inside of himself, and then on his death bed he split the juubi's chakara into the 9 bijuus and sealed the mazou into the moon. Now keep in mind that the sealing into the moon was supposed to happen on his death bed (when Hagoromo would have been very old and wrinkly like in the following image):

You must be registered to see images


Now, let's start from the creation of Black Zetsu. We know that Black Zetsu was created before Indra and Asura were born (or at the very least long before Hagoromo was an elderly man on his death bed) because of this sequence of scans:
You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images


You must be registered to see images


Black Zetsu says that Kaguya was sealed by her children, but just before the seal took hold, Kaguya created him (Black Zetsu).

Then, in the next scan, it says that Hagoromo neither knew that the juubi was actually Kaguya, nor did he know that Black Zetsu was secretly working to restore Kaguya.

Then in the third scan, it says "around then, ignorant of all this, Hagoromo was raising Indra and Asura" (as the picture shows a young Hagoromo, not an elderly Hagoromo, and a young Indra and Asura).

Now, let's focus on this line: "around then, ignorant of all this, Hagoromo was raising Indra and Asura"

The "all this" that Black Zetsu referred to was the fact that the juubi was Kaguya and that Black Zetsu was working to restore Kaguya (as stated in the previous scan). Now, it says that Hagoromo was raising Indra and Asura while being ignorant of "all this".

This directly implies that Black Zetsu had already existed and was already working to restore Kaguya when Hagoromo was raising Indra and Asura (or in other words, when Hagoromo was still young and not an elderly man on his death bed).

So... Now we know that Black Zetsu existed when Hagoromo was still young. Now let us recall when exactly Black Zetsu came into existence.

He came into existence just as Kaguya was sealed. This means that Kaguya was sealed when Hagoromo was still young.

Now, in what way was Kaguya sealed?

Well, this panel right here clearly indicates that Kaguya was sealed using the yin and yang seals - that is to say rikudou chibaku tensei

You must be registered to see images


What can we conclude from this:

We can conclude that rikudou chibaku tensei was employed when Hagoromo was still a young man. And of course, this scan directly shows this:

You must be registered to see images


Now, what does rikudou chibaku tensei do? Does it create moons or does it create jinchuuriki?

It creates moons.

The usage of rikudou chibaku tensei when Hagoromo was still young is a direct contradiction to Obito's notion that Hagoromo was old and on his death bed when the moon was created.

As one final note, I have a question for you:

If you still do not put any stock into the above scan, then please tell me what you think Hamura's role in sealing Kaguya actually was. I ask this because Madara and Obito have already shown that the process for sealing the juubi within oneself does not require two people, nor does it require the yin and yang seal. Six paths ten tails coffin seal only requires a rinnegan and a simple hand seal.

This thread is still going on???


Again..



[UNDERLINE] This is the scan...
"WE BROTHERS, TO ATONE FOR THE CRIMES MOTHER LEFT BEHIND"

"... BATTLED TENTAILS, AN INCARNATION OF THE DIVINE TREE... AND SEALED IT INSIDE ME."

You must be registered to see images


I see where you are trying to make sense of.....

[BOLD] How you NOT logically conclude that TenTails was seal using Six Path Chibaku TEnsei then the Sage was made into TenTails Jncuuriki. You keeping focusing on the Six Path Chibaku Tensei like it can do it all. I think it was Chiyo or Madara who said that the secret of sealing Jinchuuriki was passed down from the Sage.

Anyhow, what Obtio stated was not wrong. REFER TO THIS POST https://animebase.me/threads/hagoromo-hamura-vs-kaguya-juubi-is-a-really-weird-and-inconsistently-written-fight.775575/post-22013014 or [Chapter 467]


You just looking to deep into.
 

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Okay, I'm awake. Anyway...

You are attributing way too much to Hagoromo. Here is the sequence of panels that led up to the panel you posted:

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images


First of all, Hagoromo is not necessary to "finish" the chibaku tensei because we already see that deity or buddha like thing making the seal for chibaku tensei. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke clearly shout "Six Paths Catastrophic Planetary Construction". They wouldn't shout that if all they were doing was sealing the rinne sharingan. It wouldn't even be chibaku tensei in that case. (By the way, I am not denying that the rinnesharingan was sealed. I'm just saying that this is not all that happens).

Secondly, yes the seals returned to Hagoromo's hands, but that wasn't for Hagoromo to "finish" the technique. The seals returned to Hagoromo's hands as a sign to Hagoromo that Naruto and Sasuke had finished the job. The seals were never supposed to be permanent powerups for Naruto and Sasuke. For Naruto and Sasuke, the seals ran on a "you have it until you use this one technique" type of deal. Naruto and Sasuke used the technique, and then lost the seals. It is as simple as that.

Third of all, apparently the data book itself actually states that rikudou chibaku tensei does the 3 things that I listed before (sealing the rinnesharingan, extracting the victim's chakara, and sealing the victim into a moon).

Fourth, yes we do see Hagoromo make that hand seal, but that hand seal is not exclusive to chibaku tensei, and Hagoromo says that it is time to bring them back while making that hand seal. What I am touting is that when Hagoromo made that seal, Hagoromo was just molding and preparing his chakara for summoning team 7, the bijuus and Madara back from the dimension. We have actually seen the juubi making that same hand seal even for just gathering chakara.


Fifth, even if we ignore points one through four and we do as you are saying and attribute everything to Hagoromo (the sealing of the rinnesharingan, the extraction of chakara, and the chibaku tensei itself), then it would make no sense whatsoever for Hagoromo and Hamura to just seal the rinnesharingan and not do the chakara extraction and sealing into the moon. Think about it:

Hagoromo and Hamura touch the juubi with the seals right?
Okay, so they seal the rinnesharingan... Now why wouldn't they subsequently extract the chakara and then dispose of the empty shell into the moon? Why go through the trouble of housing the juubi when Hagoromo could have just taken out its chakara, gotten rid of the shell, and just split the chakara into the bijuus at a later time?

Finally, it really makes no sense for Kaguya's will to be tied to the rinnesharingan. Hagoromo would have not "known that the juubi was his mother" even if the rinnesharingan had not been sealed. We know this because in the 4th great ninja war, the juubi clearly still had the rinnesharingan, yet it was beastial and there was no sign of Kaguya's will until Madara absorbed the divine tree (in which we saw not just the appirition of the rinnesharingan, but even Kaguya's byakugan as well). Also, Madara did not awaken the rinnesharingan "as soon as he absorbed the tree". He awakened it after he got his other rinnegan back and approached the moon. This took place a good while after he absorbed the tree. Madara even fought a brief skirmish with Naruto and Sasuke, went to go get his rinnegan, and then even had another brief skirmish with team 7.
Simply not true, as you can see from the scans you've posted. The Chibaku Tensei doesn't initiate until Hagaromo gets the seals and clasps his hands. You then see it go into full swing. Before that only Kaguya's powers sealed away. I can't change the manga facts even if I wanted to. Btw, they didn't shout it, it was actually Hogaromo who did it since the seals returned to him.

You lose them after you use them makes no sense, why would they return to Hogaromo? It serves no purpose for that to happen, if Hogaromo isn't the one doing the things. Naruto and Sasuke can't use Omnyodon to make the tailed beasts, that's a Hogaromo skill, so..

Your fifth point is a non argument. The reason is because Hogaromo actually made the tailed beast later on using Omnyodon. They didn't exist as tailed beasts before that. What would've happened is the two would've sealed it's powers allowing Hogaromo to take it in. My guess is one of the two needed to become the Jin to undo the IT using the Jyuubi powers. Or at that time the seals were incomplete and could only suppress the Jyuubi powers so one had to become it's Jin.

Hogaromo isn't stupid the will of Kaguya was in the shinju and it is also what gives the Rinneg Sharingan. The Jyuubi was still in Obito and Madara even remade it with it's eye in tact. The Jyuubi itself doesn't have Kaguya's will there. The shinju part (Rinne sharingan part has it). When Hogaromo and Hamura seal the Jyuubi's powers they sealed off the power of the shinju. It's not really difficult to grasp.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
328
Kin
926💸
Kumi
654💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Simply not true, as you can see from the scans you've posted. The Chibaku Tensei doesn't initiate until Hagaromo gets the seals and clasps his hands. You then see it go into full swing. Before that only Kaguya's powers sealed away. I can't change the manga facts even if I wanted to. Btw, they didn't shout it, it was actually Hogaromo who did it since the seals returned to him.

You lose them after you use them makes no sense, why would they return to Hogaromo? It serves no purpose for that to happen, if Hogaromo isn't the one doing the things. Naruto and Sasuke can't use Omnyodon to make the tailed beasts, that's a Hogaromo skill, so..

Your fifth point is a non argument. The reason is because Hogaromo actually made the tailed beast later on using Omnyodon. They didn't exist as tailed beasts before that. What would've happened is the two would've sealed it's powers allowing Hogaromo to take it in. My guess is one of the two needed to become the Jin to undo the IT using the Jyuubi powers. Or at that time the seals were incomplete and could only suppress the Jyuubi powers so one had to become it's Jin.

Hogaromo isn't stupid the will of Kaguya was in the shinju and it is also what gives the Rinneg Sharingan. The Jyuubi was still in Obito and Madara even remade it with it's eye in tact. The Jyuubi itself doesn't have Kaguya's will there. The shinju part (Rinne sharingan part has it). When Hogaromo and Hamura seal the Jyuubi's powers they sealed off the power of the shinju. It's not really difficult to grasp.
In response to your first paragraph: You are interpreting the panels incorrectly. The chibaku tensei's initiation and the scene with Hagoromo simply took place at the same time. While Hagoromo was saying "They've done it..." and so on and so fourth, the chibaku tensei was already initiating in the other dimension. Like I said before, Hagoromo's hand clap was just him molding the chakara to prepare to summon team 7 and the bijuus back to the regular dimension. Also, Naruto and Sasuke did shout it. If Hagoromo had shouted it, the words would have been seen over him, not Naruto and Sasuke.

2nd point: Why would they return to Hagoromo you ask? The same reason that Obito's chakara and eyes returned to him after DMS Kakashi was done. Also, Naruto and Sasuke didn't need to use yin yang to make the tailed beasts because the tailed beasts already existed. The juubi from the war was a bit different from how it was during Hagoromo's time. During the war, since the bijuus had already existed, if someone were to look inside the juubi with something like a byakugan they would actually see the individual bijuus stuffed inside of the juubi. In other words, the juubi for the war was something like a bottle that contained the bijuus within it. This can be verified by the fact that Obito was able to reach inside of Rikudou Madara and specifically pull out pieces of Shukaku and Gyuki out of Madara. Madara even specifically recognized pieces of these two individual bijuus. Even before that, Naruto and the alliance were able to extract the individual bijuus out of Obito back when Obito got defeated. In fact, even before that, Naruto once made a statement that all of the bijuus were "stuffed inside" of the juubi and that he and Kurama would pull them out. In short, the bijuus did not need to be recreated via yin yang release, as they still existed within the juubi. They just needed to be extracted, and rikudou chibaku tensei extracts chakara.

Your 3rd point: I don't think you are understanding. Had they just extracted the juubi's chakara and sealed the husk into the moon, Hagoromo would have still been able to take the chakara and divide it up into bijuus later. With the juubi's chakara in his possession, he would have still been able to undo the infinite tsukuyomi.

Something else to consider:

When Hagoromo first gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals, Kaguya had not yet been revived. Madara was still the threat at the time, and he himself had not yet awakened the rinnesharingan. Yet, Naruto and Sasuke were still expected to use rikudou chibaku tensei on him. Now keep in mind that Hagoromo hadn't planned on manifesting himself in the real world. He only did so in order to request the help of the kages in summoning team 7 and the bijuus back. Also, it wasn't Hagoromo's ideal that Madara would actually successfully cast the infinite tsukuyomi. Naruto and Sasuke were ideally supposed to seal him before the genjutsu was casted. Now what does this all mean? It means that Naruto and Sasuke were expected to seal an ideally rinnesharingan-less Madara via rikudou chibaku tensei without the assistance of a manifested Hagoromo. Naturally, this would imply that rikudou chibaku tensei does it all (the rinnesharingan sealing, the chakara extraction and the moon construction) on its own, without the aid of Hagoromo.

Finally, if the yin and yang seals were only meant to seal Kaguya's power, and not Kaguya herself, then why did Black Zetsu mention the sealing into the moon in the following scan (near a panel that emphasizes the seals), while mentioning nothing about it just sealing her power and will (in reference to this scan):

You must be registered to see images


Quote: "It was said to have been a most powerful seal... the jutsu that transformed the ten tails nto a catastrophic planetary construction core"

Not: " "It was said to have been a most powerful seal... the jutsu that sealed mother's power and will"
 

minamoto

Active member
Supreme
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
22,577
Kin
25,811💸
Kumi
11,914💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
In response to your first paragraph: You are interpreting the panels incorrectly. The chibaku tensei's initiation and the scene with Hagoromo simply took place at the same time. While Hagoromo was saying "They've done it..." and so on and so fourth, the chibaku tensei was already initiating in the other dimension. Like I said before, Hagoromo's hand clap was just him molding the chakara to prepare to summon team 7 and the bijuus back to the regular dimension. Also, Naruto and Sasuke did shout it. If Hagoromo had shouted it, the words would have been seen over him, not Naruto and Sasuke.

2nd point: Why would they return to Hagoromo you ask? The same reason that Obito's chakara and eyes returned to him after DMS Kakashi was done. Also, Naruto and Sasuke didn't need to use yin yang to make the tailed beasts because the tailed beasts already existed. The juubi from the war was a bit different from how it was during Hagoromo's time. During the war, since the bijuus had already existed, if someone were to look inside the juubi with something like a byakugan they would actually see the individual bijuus stuffed inside of the juubi. In other words, the juubi for the war was something like a bottle that contained the bijuus within it. This can be verified by the fact that Obito was able to reach inside of Rikudou Madara and specifically pull out pieces of Shukaku and Gyuki out of Madara. Madara even specifically recognized pieces of these two individual bijuus. Even before that, Naruto and the alliance were able to extract the individual bijuus out of Obito back when Obito got defeated. In fact, even before that, Naruto once made a statement that all of the bijuus were "stuffed inside" of the juubi and that he and Kurama would pull them out. In short, the bijuus did not need to be recreated via yin yang release, as they still existed within the juubi. They just needed to be extracted, and rikudou chibaku tensei extracts chakara.

Your 3rd point: I don't think you are understanding. Had they just extracted the juubi's chakara and sealed the husk into the moon, Hagoromo would have still been able to take the chakara and divide it up into bijuus later. With the juubi's chakara in his possession, he would have still been able to undo the infinite tsukuyomi.

Something else to consider:

When Hagoromo first gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals, Kaguya had not yet been revived. Madara was still the threat at the time, and he himself had not yet awakened the rinnesharingan. Yet, Naruto and Sasuke were still expected to use rikudou chibaku tensei on him. Now keep in mind that Hagoromo hadn't planned on manifesting himself in the real world. He only did so in order to request the help of the kages in summoning team 7 and the bijuus back. Also, it wasn't Hagoromo's ideal that Madara would actually successfully cast the infinite tsukuyomi. Naruto and Sasuke were ideally supposed to seal him before the genjutsu was casted. Now what does this all mean? It means that Naruto and Sasuke were expected to seal an ideally rinnesharingan-less Madara via rikudou chibaku tensei without the assistance of a manifested Hagoromo. Naturally, this would imply that rikudou chibaku tensei does it all (the rinnesharingan sealing, the chakara extraction and the moon construction) on its own, without the aid of Hagoromo.

Finally, if the yin and yang seals were only meant to seal Kaguya's power, and not Kaguya herself, then why did Black Zetsu mention the sealing into the moon in the following scan (near a panel that emphasizes the seals), while mentioning nothing about it just sealing her power and will (in reference to this scan):

You must be registered to see images


Quote: "It was said to have been a most powerful seal... the jutsu that transformed the ten tails nto a catastrophic planetary construction core"

Not: " "It was said to have been a most powerful seal... the jutsu that sealed mother's power and will"
r u talkin to me????..
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
328
Kin
926💸
Kumi
654💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
This thread is still going on???


Again..



[UNDERLINE] This is the scan...
"WE BROTHERS, TO ATONE FOR THE CRIMES MOTHER LEFT BEHIND"

"... BATTLED TENTAILS, AN INCARNATION OF THE DIVINE TREE... AND SEALED IT INSIDE ME."

You must be registered to see images


I see where you are trying to make sense of.....

[BOLD] How you NOT logically conclude that TenTails was seal using Six Path Chibaku TEnsei then the Sage was made into TenTails Jncuuriki. You keeping focusing on the Six Path Chibaku Tensei like it can do it all. I think it was Chiyo or Madara who said that the secret of sealing Jinchuuriki was passed down from the Sage.

Anyhow, what Obtio stated was not wrong. REFER TO THIS POST https://animebase.me/threads/hagoromo-hamura-vs-kaguya-juubi-is-a-really-weird-and-inconsistently-written-fight.775575/post-22013014 or [Chapter 467]


You just looking to deep into.
At least with you, I think I am starting to see where our disagreement is coming from. To sum it up definitively, are you saying that you believe that rikudou chibaku tensei (or rather the yin and yang seals) can be used to become the juubi's jinchuuriki instead of sealing into the moon?
Post automatically merged:

r u talkin to me????..
No. I quoted Salamander Uchiha didn't I?
 

minamoto

Active member
Supreme
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
22,577
Kin
25,811💸
Kumi
11,914💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
At least with you, I think I am starting to see where our disagreement is coming from. To sum it up definitively, are you saying that you believe that rikudou chibaku tensei (or rather the yin and yang seals) can be used to become the juubi's jinchuuriki instead of sealing into the moon?
Post automatically merged:



No. I quoted Salamander Uchiha didn't I?
hey dont yell or i'll solo ur fodder a$$...i got nofotikation of ur reply in my profile thats why i asked u..
 

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
In response to your first paragraph: You are interpreting the panels incorrectly. The chibaku tensei's initiation and the scene with Hagoromo simply took place at the same time. While Hagoromo was saying "They've done it..." and so on and so fourth, the chibaku tensei was already initiating in the other dimension. Like I said before, Hagoromo's hand clap was just him molding the chakara to prepare to summon team 7 and the bijuus back to the regular dimension. Also, Naruto and Sasuke did shout it. If Hagoromo had shouted it, the words would have been seen over him, not Naruto and Sasuke.
This is simply a misreading on your part. The Chibaku Tensei doesn't create the tailed beasts it never has. Hogaromo did that confirmed by Tobidara, Hogaromo himself and Kurama. So he wasn't getting ready to retrieve anybody, once Kaguya was tagged he was able to use the jutsu to seal her and retrieve the tailed beasts (remake them).

No they didn't, they don't even know what it's called so..

2nd point: Why would they return to Hagoromo you ask? The same reason that Obito's chakara and eyes returned to him after DMS Kakashi was done. Also, Naruto and Sasuke didn't need to use yin yang to make the tailed beasts because the tailed beasts already existed. The juubi from the war was a bit different from how it was during Hagoromo's time. During the war, since the bijuus had already existed, if someone were to look inside the juubi with something like a byakugan they would actually see the individual bijuus stuffed inside of the juubi. In other words, the juubi for the war was something like a bottle that contained the bijuus within it. This can be verified by the fact that Obito was able to reach inside of Rikudou Madara and specifically pull out pieces of Shukaku and Gyuki out of Madara. Madara even specifically recognized pieces of these two individual bijuus. Even before that, Naruto and the alliance were able to extract the individual bijuus out of Obito back when Obito got defeated. In fact, even before that, Naruto once made a statement that all of the bijuus were "stuffed inside" of the juubi and that he and Kurama would pull them out. In short, the bijuus did not need to be recreated via yin yang release, as they still existed within the juubi. They just needed to be extracted, and rikudou chibaku tensei extracts chakara.
Again this is wrong and the simultude is flawed. The eyes never returned to Obito, Obito was there the whole time. He was helping Kakashi and then he left with his eyes. The seals returning to Hogaromo was so he could cast the jutsu and remake the tailed beasts. If you want to call it extract, then extract them. Because we clearly didn't see Naruto do it. Hogaromo did all of that, no matter how one tries to spin it.

Your 3rd point: I don't think you are understanding. Had they just extracted the juubi's chakara and sealed the husk into the moon, Hagoromo would have still been able to take the chakara and divide it up into bijuus later. With the juubi's chakara in his possession, he would have still been able to undo the infinite tsukuyomi.
Not possible, since he was a host to the Mezo. Madara used the same seal Hogaromo used to seal the 10 tails inside himself. And the Jyuubi chakra on it's own and neither has it been shown to do so. Also, we know he sealed the 10 tails in himself as confirmed by Him and Kurama. It doesn't go with you're argument, tbh.

Something else to consider:

When Hagoromo first gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals, Kaguya had not yet been revived. Madara was still the threat at the time, and he himself had not yet awakened the rinnesharingan. Yet, Naruto and Sasuke were still expected to use rikudou chibaku tensei on him. Now keep in mind that Hagoromo hadn't planned on manifesting himself in the real world. He only did so in order to request the help of the kages in summoning team 7 and the bijuus back. Also, it wasn't Hagoromo's ideal that Madara would actually successfully cast the infinite tsukuyomi. Naruto and Sasuke were ideally supposed to seal him before the genjutsu was casted. Now what does this all mean? It means that Naruto and Sasuke were expected to seal an ideally rinnesharingan-less Madara via rikudou chibaku tensei without the assistance of a manifested Hagoromo. Naturally, this would imply that rikudou chibaku tensei does it all (the rinnesharingan sealing, the chakara extraction and the moon construction) on its own, without the aid of Hagoromo.
Again the sealing here was to seal the Jyuubis power and Hogaromo knew he planned on using the IT. Last time I checked the IT couldn't be used without the Rinne Sharingan, so yes it was to deal with all of that.

Finally, if the yin and yang seals were only meant to seal Kaguya's power, and not Kaguya herself, then why did Black Zetsu mention the sealing into the moon in the following scan (near a panel that emphasizes the seals), while mentioning nothing about it just sealing her power and will (in reference to this scan):

You must be registered to see images


Quote: "It was said to have been a most powerful seal... the jutsu that transformed the ten tails nto a catastrophic planetary construction core"

Not: " "It was said to have been a most powerful seal... the jutsu that sealed mother's power and will"
Here's what your missing, the sealing method was powerful hence he called it a seal. Not that that there was on seal (Yin and Yang are two seals). Second point he doesn't highlight when the Mezo was sealed. And we know Hogaromo launched the Mezo before death. So yes, Hamura helped him do that then. Third point, since the shinju was inside Hogaromo, we know it only sealed her powers during the battle.
 
Top