Sarada got pantsed
Member
Hello. I've been thinking about this for years, but the Naruto manga's depiction of the fight that went on between Hagoromo/Hamura and Kaguya/Juubi has actually changed and contradicted itself time and time again.
Allow me to explain:
In the following scan, Hagoromo himself directly states that he and Hamura fought the juubi, and that at the juubi was sealed inside of Hagoromo:
We know that it was the whole juubi that was sealed inside of Hagoromo (including the yet to exist gedou mazou and all), and that it wasn't the case that Hagoromo only sealed the juubi's chakara inside of him while sealing the mazou into the moon. We know that the mazou portion of the juubi was in fact inside of Hagoromo because Kurama states it (or at least implies it) in the following two scans:
However, here is where the first contradiction/plot hole comes in. Black Zetsu states that the juubi was turned into the core of the chibaku tensei (via rikudou chibaku tensei) and sealed into the moon. Check out this scan for proof of this:
Now, when did this sealing of the juubi into the moon take place? Did this take place at the end of Hagoromo's lifespan, or did it take place at the end of Hagoromo/Hamura's fight with the juubi and/or Kaguya?
Well, the following scan shows that Hagoromo and Hamura did activate rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of their fight with their mother:
However, who/what were Hagoromo/Hamura sealing into the moon in the above scan? The juubi (monster form) or Kaguya (human form)?
Now, if it was Kaguya herself (and not the juubi), then this would imply that rikudou chibaku tensei had already been used once before prior to the point in time in which the juubi was sealed into the moon. In other words, even before the juubi was sealed into the moon, a moon would have already previously been created due to the sealing of Kaguya. If the moon had already been created before the juubi was sealed into it, then how exactly did the gedou mazou get up to the moon (and into the interior of it mind you)? We know that many years later, Madara would summon the mazou from the moon upon awakening the rinnegan. We also know that the Otsutsuki clan on the moon were supposed to be guarding the mazou. However, if Kaguya (human form) was sealed via rikudou chibaku tensei before the juubi was, then how did the juubi get inside of the moon.
You'd think that Hagoromo would have to use rikudou chibaku tensei a second time to seal the mazou inside of a moon at the end of his lifespan. However, this would result in the creation of a second moon, which we've heard nothing about. No character in Naruto has ever mentioned their earth having two moons or anything like that. People always say that the rikudou senin created "the moon (singular)" instead of "the moons (plural)".
Is it possible that at the end of his lifespan, Hagoromo just used some sort of spacetime jutsu to warp the mazou into the interior of the moon or something like that instead of creating a second moon? Possibly, but nothing like this was ever stated or shown.
Anyway, those are just the questions that emerge from the interpretation that Hagoromo and Hamura were sealing the humanoid Kaguya in the above scan (which by the way, also happens to be the path that the anime filler went with. The filler didn't even address the mazou).
Now if we instead assume that Hagoromo and Hamura were instead sealing the juubi (monster form) into the moon in the above scan, then that raises a different set of questions:
What happened to Hagoromo becoming the juubi's jinchuuriki? I've already proven via the first few scans of this thread that Hagoromo did in fact seal the whole juubi inside of himself. However, in the above scan, it looks like they are sealing it (the juubi) into the moon at the end of the fight (we know this is the end of the fight and not the end of Hagoromo's life span in the above scan because Hagoromo and Hamura look young in the above scan and not old and wrinkly like they later appear). When then, did the juubi get sealed inside of Hagoromo? What about the creation of the bijuus and the mazou? The creation of these things are supposed to have come after Hagoromo had already lived a long life as the juubi's jinchuuriki. As proven at the beginning of the thread, you can't say that Hagoromo and Hamura just sealed the mazou inside of the moon at the end of the fight, and sealed the juubi's chakara into Hagoromo because as shown earlier, Kurama noted that having the mazou inside of Hagoromo is what kept him alive after extracting the bijuus from himself.
In short, the question as to whether Hagoromo/Hamura sealed the humanoid Kaguya at the end of their fight, or the monstrous juubi creates a number of questions and plot inconsistencies.
What's more? Questions can be raised about who exactly the combatants of the fight were (on the Kaguya/juubi side of things). Namely:
Which of the following battles did Hagoromo and Hamura actually fight? Was it:
A. Hagoromo/Hamura vs Kaguya (humanoid form) and the juubi (monstrous) with the latter two combatants fighting separately, but as partners. (This is the option that the anime filler went with)
B. Hagoromo and Hamura vs juubi alone (insinuating that Kaguya herself was the juubi, and that the bros did not fight two opponents, but just one).
C. They first fought Kaguya (humanoid form) alone, and then at a later point they fought the juubi alone.
Now, if we go with option A and we assume that Kaguya herself was sealed into the moon via rikudou chibaku tensei while the juubi was sealed inside of Hagoromo (just like how the anime portrayed it), then that brings up the whole question about how did the mazou later get inside of the moon, and the whole two moons issue. To be honest, these same issues also come as a result of option C as well. I will make a certain acknowledgement though. Since Kaguya does have the ability to shift dimensions during the fight, if option A or C were to be the case, then it is possible that Hagoromo and Hamura did in fact seal humanoid Kaguya into the moon, but they did it in another dimension (as was the case with Naruto and Sasuke), while the juubi (mazou) was later sealed into the earth's moon at the end of Hagoromo's lifespan after Hagoromo had extracted and created the bijuus (which is why the earth only has one moon). That would be a way to make sense of it, although it would have been nice if the manga made it more clear that Kaguya was sealed inside of a moon inside of another dimension (since neither the manga nor the anime's depictions of the fight make it look as if they are fighting in one of Kaguya's dimensions), and that there were two fights that took place at different times (in the case of option C). Even though I give this acknowledgement, it should be noted that the anime filler totally missed its chance for these fixes since the anime (which went with option A) had the bros fight and seal Kaguya via rikudou chibaku tensei on earth (not in one of Kaguya's dimensions).
In the case of option B however, it would make more sense if Hagoromo and Hamura only fought the juubi alone (with Kaguya being the juubi) and sealed it inside of Hagoromo, and then at the end of Hagoromo's lifespan, Hagoromo extracted the bijuus from himself and then sealed the mazou inside of the moon. However, doing it this way would contradict the above scan's depiction of Hagoromo and Hamura deploying the rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of the fight (unless you are trying to tell me that in addition to sealing targets inside of moons, rikudou chibaku tensei can also be used to seal the juubi into someone, thus creating a juubi jinchuuriki). In other words, if the bros only fought the juubi (and not humanoid Kaguya) and they sealed the juubi inside of Hagoromo at the end of the fight, then who exactly were they using rikudou chibaku tensei on in the above scan?
Honestly, for years, I felt like option B was the correct case. I had interpreted the juubi as being the literal fusion of Kaguya and the divine tree (just as Gotenks is the fusion of Goten and Trunks). However, the anime went on to contradict this notion by picking option A. Based on that, and some discussions that I have had here on this base, I decided to go back and re-evaluate the scan that originally led me to believe the juubi to be the fusion between Kaguya and the divine tree. This scan:
Despite what I thought before (which also happens to be what Naruto wiki and several other people think about it), it says here that the juubi is Kaguya's will. In other words, it could perhaps be interpreted as: Kaguya imposed her will onto the divine tree and morphed it into the juubi (as opposed to Kaguya actually being a part of the juubi herself).
That would explain how an Otsutsuki and their juubi could coexist and fight separately from each other (which would explain the possibilities of options A and C, as well as recent developments in the Boruto manga).
At this point though, I'm just not entirely sure.
Then, as if all of this wasn't confusing and convoluted enough, the Boruto manga has gone on to throw even the origins of the juubi and the divine tree into question.
We see above, that the juubi was supposed to either be Kaguya's will imposed onto the divine tree, or Kaguya herself mixed with the divine tree. In other words, both Kaguya and the divine tree were supposed to exist before the monstrous juubi ever did.
Now however, in the Boruto manga, Amado says that the juubi is a seedling that grows into the divine tree. This would imply that monstrous juubi actually comes before the divine tree. What happened though to the whole notion of the juubi being Kaguya's will or Kaguya herself? The juubi was supposed to only come into existence when Kaguya willed it to, but now it comes before the divine tree?
As one final note, the notion of the divine tree growing from the juubi is a direct retcon of the guidebook Retsu no Sho (which came with "The Last: Naruto the Movie") which stated that the divine tree grows as a result of large amounts of blood soaking into the earth after countless years of warfare amongst humans.
Man! Kishi really needs to get his juubi story straight.
What do you guys think about all of these Kaguya/Juubi/Divine Tree plot inconsistencies/mysteries, etc...
Please share your thoughts.
Allow me to explain:
In the following scan, Hagoromo himself directly states that he and Hamura fought the juubi, and that at the juubi was sealed inside of Hagoromo:
You must be registered to see images
We know that it was the whole juubi that was sealed inside of Hagoromo (including the yet to exist gedou mazou and all), and that it wasn't the case that Hagoromo only sealed the juubi's chakara inside of him while sealing the mazou into the moon. We know that the mazou portion of the juubi was in fact inside of Hagoromo because Kurama states it (or at least implies it) in the following two scans:
You must be registered to see images
You must be registered to see images
However, here is where the first contradiction/plot hole comes in. Black Zetsu states that the juubi was turned into the core of the chibaku tensei (via rikudou chibaku tensei) and sealed into the moon. Check out this scan for proof of this:
You must be registered to see images
Now, when did this sealing of the juubi into the moon take place? Did this take place at the end of Hagoromo's lifespan, or did it take place at the end of Hagoromo/Hamura's fight with the juubi and/or Kaguya?
Well, the following scan shows that Hagoromo and Hamura did activate rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of their fight with their mother:
You must be registered to see images
However, who/what were Hagoromo/Hamura sealing into the moon in the above scan? The juubi (monster form) or Kaguya (human form)?
Now, if it was Kaguya herself (and not the juubi), then this would imply that rikudou chibaku tensei had already been used once before prior to the point in time in which the juubi was sealed into the moon. In other words, even before the juubi was sealed into the moon, a moon would have already previously been created due to the sealing of Kaguya. If the moon had already been created before the juubi was sealed into it, then how exactly did the gedou mazou get up to the moon (and into the interior of it mind you)? We know that many years later, Madara would summon the mazou from the moon upon awakening the rinnegan. We also know that the Otsutsuki clan on the moon were supposed to be guarding the mazou. However, if Kaguya (human form) was sealed via rikudou chibaku tensei before the juubi was, then how did the juubi get inside of the moon.
You'd think that Hagoromo would have to use rikudou chibaku tensei a second time to seal the mazou inside of a moon at the end of his lifespan. However, this would result in the creation of a second moon, which we've heard nothing about. No character in Naruto has ever mentioned their earth having two moons or anything like that. People always say that the rikudou senin created "the moon (singular)" instead of "the moons (plural)".
Is it possible that at the end of his lifespan, Hagoromo just used some sort of spacetime jutsu to warp the mazou into the interior of the moon or something like that instead of creating a second moon? Possibly, but nothing like this was ever stated or shown.
Anyway, those are just the questions that emerge from the interpretation that Hagoromo and Hamura were sealing the humanoid Kaguya in the above scan (which by the way, also happens to be the path that the anime filler went with. The filler didn't even address the mazou).
Now if we instead assume that Hagoromo and Hamura were instead sealing the juubi (monster form) into the moon in the above scan, then that raises a different set of questions:
What happened to Hagoromo becoming the juubi's jinchuuriki? I've already proven via the first few scans of this thread that Hagoromo did in fact seal the whole juubi inside of himself. However, in the above scan, it looks like they are sealing it (the juubi) into the moon at the end of the fight (we know this is the end of the fight and not the end of Hagoromo's life span in the above scan because Hagoromo and Hamura look young in the above scan and not old and wrinkly like they later appear). When then, did the juubi get sealed inside of Hagoromo? What about the creation of the bijuus and the mazou? The creation of these things are supposed to have come after Hagoromo had already lived a long life as the juubi's jinchuuriki. As proven at the beginning of the thread, you can't say that Hagoromo and Hamura just sealed the mazou inside of the moon at the end of the fight, and sealed the juubi's chakara into Hagoromo because as shown earlier, Kurama noted that having the mazou inside of Hagoromo is what kept him alive after extracting the bijuus from himself.
In short, the question as to whether Hagoromo/Hamura sealed the humanoid Kaguya at the end of their fight, or the monstrous juubi creates a number of questions and plot inconsistencies.
What's more? Questions can be raised about who exactly the combatants of the fight were (on the Kaguya/juubi side of things). Namely:
Which of the following battles did Hagoromo and Hamura actually fight? Was it:
A. Hagoromo/Hamura vs Kaguya (humanoid form) and the juubi (monstrous) with the latter two combatants fighting separately, but as partners. (This is the option that the anime filler went with)
B. Hagoromo and Hamura vs juubi alone (insinuating that Kaguya herself was the juubi, and that the bros did not fight two opponents, but just one).
C. They first fought Kaguya (humanoid form) alone, and then at a later point they fought the juubi alone.
Now, if we go with option A and we assume that Kaguya herself was sealed into the moon via rikudou chibaku tensei while the juubi was sealed inside of Hagoromo (just like how the anime portrayed it), then that brings up the whole question about how did the mazou later get inside of the moon, and the whole two moons issue. To be honest, these same issues also come as a result of option C as well. I will make a certain acknowledgement though. Since Kaguya does have the ability to shift dimensions during the fight, if option A or C were to be the case, then it is possible that Hagoromo and Hamura did in fact seal humanoid Kaguya into the moon, but they did it in another dimension (as was the case with Naruto and Sasuke), while the juubi (mazou) was later sealed into the earth's moon at the end of Hagoromo's lifespan after Hagoromo had extracted and created the bijuus (which is why the earth only has one moon). That would be a way to make sense of it, although it would have been nice if the manga made it more clear that Kaguya was sealed inside of a moon inside of another dimension (since neither the manga nor the anime's depictions of the fight make it look as if they are fighting in one of Kaguya's dimensions), and that there were two fights that took place at different times (in the case of option C). Even though I give this acknowledgement, it should be noted that the anime filler totally missed its chance for these fixes since the anime (which went with option A) had the bros fight and seal Kaguya via rikudou chibaku tensei on earth (not in one of Kaguya's dimensions).
In the case of option B however, it would make more sense if Hagoromo and Hamura only fought the juubi alone (with Kaguya being the juubi) and sealed it inside of Hagoromo, and then at the end of Hagoromo's lifespan, Hagoromo extracted the bijuus from himself and then sealed the mazou inside of the moon. However, doing it this way would contradict the above scan's depiction of Hagoromo and Hamura deploying the rikudou chibaku tensei at the end of the fight (unless you are trying to tell me that in addition to sealing targets inside of moons, rikudou chibaku tensei can also be used to seal the juubi into someone, thus creating a juubi jinchuuriki). In other words, if the bros only fought the juubi (and not humanoid Kaguya) and they sealed the juubi inside of Hagoromo at the end of the fight, then who exactly were they using rikudou chibaku tensei on in the above scan?
Honestly, for years, I felt like option B was the correct case. I had interpreted the juubi as being the literal fusion of Kaguya and the divine tree (just as Gotenks is the fusion of Goten and Trunks). However, the anime went on to contradict this notion by picking option A. Based on that, and some discussions that I have had here on this base, I decided to go back and re-evaluate the scan that originally led me to believe the juubi to be the fusion between Kaguya and the divine tree. This scan:
You must be registered to see images
Despite what I thought before (which also happens to be what Naruto wiki and several other people think about it), it says here that the juubi is Kaguya's will. In other words, it could perhaps be interpreted as: Kaguya imposed her will onto the divine tree and morphed it into the juubi (as opposed to Kaguya actually being a part of the juubi herself).
That would explain how an Otsutsuki and their juubi could coexist and fight separately from each other (which would explain the possibilities of options A and C, as well as recent developments in the Boruto manga).
At this point though, I'm just not entirely sure.
Then, as if all of this wasn't confusing and convoluted enough, the Boruto manga has gone on to throw even the origins of the juubi and the divine tree into question.
We see above, that the juubi was supposed to either be Kaguya's will imposed onto the divine tree, or Kaguya herself mixed with the divine tree. In other words, both Kaguya and the divine tree were supposed to exist before the monstrous juubi ever did.
Now however, in the Boruto manga, Amado says that the juubi is a seedling that grows into the divine tree. This would imply that monstrous juubi actually comes before the divine tree. What happened though to the whole notion of the juubi being Kaguya's will or Kaguya herself? The juubi was supposed to only come into existence when Kaguya willed it to, but now it comes before the divine tree?
As one final note, the notion of the divine tree growing from the juubi is a direct retcon of the guidebook Retsu no Sho (which came with "The Last: Naruto the Movie") which stated that the divine tree grows as a result of large amounts of blood soaking into the earth after countless years of warfare amongst humans.
Man! Kishi really needs to get his juubi story straight.
What do you guys think about all of these Kaguya/Juubi/Divine Tree plot inconsistencies/mysteries, etc...
Please share your thoughts.