Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki: The Last Enemy That Shall Be Destroyed

[Magikarp]

It would make things interesting but how strong can he be if Kaguya really wasn't shit.

 

[Vega]

Very nice read! As too my opinion on the matter, I also believe that Hagoromo is nifty. To me this latest chapter showcased a very strange occurrence.

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Hagoromo getting the Yin and Yang seals back was just too awkward, he just gave them to Naruto and Sasuke, he never said it was temporary he never made that clear so why in the first place his he taking the seals ? (I bet is not only to bring the Kage from the pure land...)

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Also recently I bought the Naruto official character data book that goes up to volume 43 of the series that was written by Kishi himself, in the profile of the Sage of the Six Paths it says...

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Could Kishi be leaving us a opening here ? By asking us and himself if Hagoromo should be evil or not. Guess we will found out in the near future !

Well none the less that's a great theory, loved the part of the Hyuga curse mark and how Hagoromo used it !

Thank you
You brought up a very excellent point with the databook, I hadn't considered that. Going along with Sparks said in regards to Jiraiya's knowledge- "Rinnegan was sent down from heavens for either peace or destruction," perhaps there were to sets of people: Those who willingly followed Hagoromo and saw the "Peace" he desires and they in return create the Hagoromo clan that lasted to Hashirama's time [

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]. Perhaps the other side that weren't willing to obey him saw his "Wrath" and coined the "Destruction of Rinnegan" side. Maybe even some cults started to worship the Destructive side and created Jashin, who knows though lol.

great theory man.. there was smth wierd at the end of the last chapter with Hagoromo

Thanks Man
Same, something seems very fishy in all of this

Seems legit:

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lol, Hagoromo Nicholson. That smile is so sinister as well

Something to ponder about: The redemptive character of Kishi's writing style would've made Hagoromo make peace with Kaguya and yet he is contented to repeat history and reseal her again which offers no true finality to this plot point, therefore in respect to this particular instance, Hagoromo is not morally right, which gives credence to the hypothesis that he is not fully benevolent.

Exactly, and I also found it strange that Naruto did not attempt to "Tnj" Kaguya once. Against Obito and Madara he made it apparent of his "Ninja Way". The seal they used was also a bit peculiar, as against Juubito Naruto's Tug of War gave him the chance to "connect" with Obito (learning memories, etc.) and that really allowed Naruto understand Obito for who he is. Hagoromo's seal pretty much ensured it that Naruto (nor Sasuke) would be given an opportunity to at least see the other side of the story.

Remember during the conversation between Hagoromo and Naruto that Hagoromo referred to the Juubi as the physical incarnation of the Holy Tree. When we learned from BZ that Kaguya was a part of the Juubi, we were under the impression that Hagoromo was not fully aware of this, at least according to BZ :

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If Hagoromo just recently learned that his mother was a part of the beast which he sealed, don't you think he would want to at least speak to her? Instead he seems happy knowing that his mother has been sealed.

Precisely, along with what I said above this, it seemed Hagoromo wanted to seal away his mother as quick as possible.

I seriously doubt he wasn't aware his mommy was the 10b even before. And yes, even if we assume for the sake of argument that he didn't know it was her before, he would've certainly know it already when she appeared since he is constantly watching the current events.

Exactly, that's also why I think he knew about BZ and co. He recalled images of Madara awakening the Rinnegan after-all, he definitely witnessed the later events of the story as well.

I agree, he has been watching, so how couldn't he know?
Evil Hagoromo FTW :devil:

lol indeed.

Who is going to revive Hagoromo? Who is going to give up their life for Hagoromo? He is dead and the dead can't use the Tail Beast be a Host.

Let's first go back to Konan's words she reiterated from Legends [

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] "He who controls Rinnegan... They say he is outside life and death." That is precisely what Hagoromo is, by becoming an anthology life-form (floating chakra) he is able to essentially become "immortal" in the sense that he can witness what's going around. Next, by combining the Juubi/Kyuubi, Indra, and Ashura's chakra, he has become a non-corpeal spirit present in the living world. Where have we seen that before? Two occasions, and that's right: Obito and Ashura/Indra (in a sense). The commonality between both of those instances is that they were able to essentially "possess" someone like a ghost. Obito "possessed" Kakashi to give him Ocular Powers [

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], and Ashura did the same to Naruto with choosing him. [

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]Hagoromo in his current state was able to perform Jutsu as well as call back the past Kage's souls, combine that with past examples, I'd say he very well could possess someone and take them over. In a sense, it's practically like the "True" version of what Orochimaru was aiming for with his Ritual Jutsu I suppose you could say. It's also similar to Edo Tensei, except where one summons the dead's soul in a human sacrifice here the Soul pretty much enters at will.

So to answer your original questions more clearly, Hagoromo may not need to "revive" himself as he could "possess" someone, Madara could be one host for that (or someone else), and that could grant him access to Bijuu powers.
Checkout this theory I made on the After-life/Spirits for more info [

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].

your theory is really awesome, though i don't see kishi pulling off team7 vs hagoromo, backstory of hamura, madara getting tnj'ed and naruto vs sasuke in 10 chapters.

Thanks man
That's one thing that I'm worried about as well, hope for the best I guess lol.

Spoiler

I'm not a fan of Hagoromo becoming the FV but this thread was the best plausible theories I've read, Vega you never fail to impress me, I mean especially in this current situation Hagoromo being good is making hard to believe he's "Evil" in a sense that willingly to do a harm in order to achieve what is believed to be a good goal which is the belief that one with enough power can -make- or -force- everything to be good. You made me convinced that Hagoromo are too sketchy possibly against the natural order of the universe and that your actions, no matter how well intentioned, will end up being destructive.
I can speculate that the Rinnegan came about from Kaguya's desire to see the end to human suffering - the power of the fruit is the power to "cast the shadow of destiny" - it is the essence of True Yang. The Rinnegan is the manifestation of the fruit's attempt to answer Kaguya's desire. But there were unexpected consequences. There is a reason Kaguya was not supposed to involve herself with the affairs of humans and was merely to do her duty to consume the fruit and ascend to the realm of divine beings. She did not. Her wish will end up being fulfilled - but not quite in the way she expected. Just as Hagoromo was born into existence by the power of the fruit - so, too, was the one who would ensure the natural cycle of the Holy Tree be restored. Also cast within this same shadow was the one with which his destiny is shared - the one who will do as Kaguya and cast the new shadow of destiny.

I do not think the Hyuuga draw their lineage back to Hamura - but instead have a more direct link back to the Ototsuki. Or perhaps it is both - the Ototsuki lineage became the Main Family while the Hamura lineage became the Branch Family.


Anyway +Rep for you, I had enjoyed reading your plauisble theory

Thanks man
I like what you mentioned regarding Kaguya's desire and the Rinnegan, it makes sense considering the Rinnegan is modeled after Samsara (cycle of hatred). Now the only thing left would be to break that Cycle (looks at Naruto).

It would make things interesting but how strong can he be if Kaguya really wasn't shit.

Keep in mind that Naruto and Sasuke used Hagoromo's powers to battle Kaguya, suppose he took all of it back (he already has the seals back), that would be a very big problem lol.

 

[startup97]

I love you Vega!

 

[Hidari]

I read all of this. If it is true, I'd be very interested in seeing how Kishimoto wraps all this up in the remaining chapters. (+rep)

 

[Leinad Sotam]

Nice find with the databook. Perhaps Kishi had previously planned the possibility of a villain Hagoromo, and that is the meaning of the vague creator or destroyer statement. It also reminds me of the legends that originally surrounded the Rinnegan as stated by Jiraiya:

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Thanks ! I love how kishi leaves things open for interpretation !

 

[Leinad Sotam]

You brought up a very excellent point with the databook, I hadn't considered that. Going along with Sparks said in regards to Jiraiya's knowledge- "Rinnegan was sent down from heavens for either peace or destruction," perhaps there were to sets of people: Those who willingly followed Hagoromo and saw the "Peace" he desires and they in return create the Hagoromo clan that lasted to Hashirama's time [

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]. Perhaps the other side that weren't willing to obey him saw his "Wrath" and coined the "Destruction of Rinnegan" side. Maybe even some cults started to worship the Destructive side and created Jashin, who knows though lol.

Thank You ! I always loved how Kishi left thing open for interpretation I think it makes the story more juicier !

 

[Draxus]

a) It's quite logical that a person will be most powerful in his prime; and Rinne-Tensei will mostly revive you in your prime (Not sure though). Still; Hagoromo would want a prime body to awaken his full potential.

b) I believe that his Rinnegan is fake similar to Edo Madara and it will shatter upon his revival forcing him to take Madara's Rinnegan.

So like I said A makes no sense Rinne-Tensei doesn't revive you in your prime. You can double check with all the still not in prime ninja of konaha

Edo Madara's rinnegan weren't fake, the reason Madara didn't have his eyes was because they were still being used by other people. No one is currently using Hagoromo's eyes.

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

I've thought of a reason he could want to be evil.

SAGE NO LIKE NINJUTSU! SAGE SMASH ALL WHO USE NINJUTSU!

 

[Mr Kays]

Respect :O

 

[Angelic.]

Seems legit:

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lol im gonna laugh so hard if hago really isnt evil. poor guy its bc hes ugly.


it would seem weird to me that hago would just continue to live as floating chakra if this transmigration of his sons are the last ones. he either needs to move on or be gone!

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

lol im gonna laugh so hard if hago really isnt evil.


it would seem weird to me that hago would just continue to live as floating chakra if this transmigration of his sons are the last ones. he either needs to move on or be gone!

We still need to know the identity of the Death God:

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[Rohan]

We still need to know the identity of the Death God:

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But didn't you say that the RDS is a female ?

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

But didn't you say that the RDS is a female ?

In traditional jp culture yes, however Kishi could make artistic liberties, none the less I'm still 100% convinced that the Death God is connected to the Tablet and that Kishi is hiding it still:

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[video=youtube;k8RbWETvHmA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k8RbWETvHmA[/video]

My biggest worry is that the Tablet is like an Ancestral Tablet, which houses the spirit of a family's ancestor.

 

[Draxus]

In traditional jp culture yes, however Kishi could make artistic liberties, none the less I'm still 100% convinced that the Death God is connected to the Tablet and that Kishi is hiding it still:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

[video=youtube;k8RbWETvHmA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k8RbWETvHmA[/video]

My biggest worry is that the Tablet is like an Ancestral Tablet, which houses the spirit of a family's ancestor.

We still need to know the identity of the Death God:

Spoiler

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Will you ever tier of your theories getting debunked by Kishi and then trying to retcon them like you were never wrong to begin with? RDS has nothing to do with the tablet, the Reaper doesn't NEED another identity, and "Astral Tablet" is probably the worse piece of fanfiction you came up with to date.

 

[startup97]

Hamura's absense from the legend does seem strange and so is Hagoromo's face in the last panel of the current chapter. It looks like something you can't trust.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Hamura's absense from the legend does seem strange and so is Hagoromo's face in the last panel of the current chapter. It looks like something you can't trust.

Exactly, and factor in the significance of the still unused Treasured Tools (and the headband falling on it) then it stands to reason that a sinister scenario is brewing.

 

[Angelic.]

In traditional jp culture yes, however Kishi could make artistic liberties, none the less I'm still 100% convinced that the Death God is connected to the Tablet and that Kishi is hiding it still:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

[video=youtube;k8RbWETvHmA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k8RbWETvHmA[/video]

My biggest worry is that the Tablet is like an Ancestral Tablet, which houses the spirit of a family's ancestor.

ive always felt this was the case with it. but whom??

Will you ever tier of your theories getting debunked by Kishi and then trying to retcon them like you were never wrong to begin with? RDS has nothing to do with the tablet, the Reaper doesn't NEED another identity, and "Astral Tablet" is probably the worse piece of fanfiction you came up with to date.

awwww..

 

[Darth Uchiha]

I don't think he'll turn out evil, but that's the first sane argument I've found on the subject, nice job.

 

[Darth Uchiha]

I briefly looked into some Taoism yesterday and I think what I found out, debunks this theory. Yin and yang are both sun and moon. And since the theme of this story has been about brothers stealing or taking from each other in order for one brother to achieve greater power... I think it holds suit for Hamura and Hagoromo. I think the cycle of hatred began with the sage and his brother. I think Hagoromo stole Hamura's powers somehow and even let him die. I think there was a chance for Hamura to be saved, but Hagoromo decided to let him die and steal his powers. Think "The Lion King" when Scar let Mufasa fall off the cliff. He did so, so that he could take his place as king. Well, Hagoromo didn't want to share power or authority with his brother. And to be honest, I think there's something about Hamura, that Hagoromo envied. Could Hamura have been his mother's favorite? Possibly, but I think it's something else... can't put my finger on it.

Personally, I'd like it if it was determined that Hagoromo hated his brother, just because he was born evil, rather than an event happening that turned him evil. And if this is the case, how can the cycle of hatred be broken, when people are born evil? I guess this would play to the theme that Naruto is a "savior". But enough about that...

What do you guys think, overall about this?

Well, nice theory, I like it, though it refuse to believe anyone could be born evil.

 

[narutoblitz]

I will bitterly say that "I called it" many months ago in

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.

That said, I agreed back in February with OP and I agree now. Sage is evil, Naruto and Hashirama were just puppets used to enable a transdimensional dictator. I think Madara and Sasuke will try to kill Hagoromo, having seen through his plan. Naruto will be confused and not take sides at first. Edo Hokage get overwritten.

Final boss is probably Orochimaru and/or the sage. The tablet is just some propaganda the Sage used to justify his own crap. A lot of Naruto has been about the embracing of Shintoism over Buddhism if you really get down to it.

The Sage, as the embodiment of Buddhism, is essentially the final villain. Kishimoto is absolutely making a religious and social statement with this manga. Let's keep in mind, it's obviously directed at an Asian audience (read: Japanese) and not the American/Euro audience on these forums.

My thoughts having lived in Japan for 3 years.