Gaara vs Mu

[Forbidden Technique]

Burden of proof is on you, bro. I explained why it would make sense for a sensor to differentiate between clones if the clones had different chakra levels, it's up to you to show me an instance where a sensor couldn't tell the difference. And so far you only provided two examples which fail to prove anything.

1 - Mu couldn't tell a rock clone from the original Onoki? Show me a scan of that because the only time we see Onoki's rock clones are

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and we never see them again after that.

2 - ...it's pretty obvious that Kabuto didn't even realize there was another Itachi on the battlefield, he was caught up in the heat of the moment and didn't notice Itachi had made a clone. It's not that Kabuto couldn't tell the difference; he didn't notice the presence of more than one Itachi on the battlefield at all. Smh I already explained this to you once, I'll write it again here.

Let me start with saying that being a sensor does not mean you can necessarily track/focus/multitask on everything at once, and diversions still work. Point: Kabuto managed to

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but after being

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Sasuke was able to

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. If you look in the bottom left of that last scan you can see Itachi removing Susano'o, so that means that was the real Itachi and not a clone - so in the short time Itachi wove the seals for the clone which Kabuto stabbed in place of the real Itachi; a conclusion further supported by how the real Itachi was

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who was momentarily distracted by the explosion of crows. Kabuto was distracted because he was assaulted by Magatamas, pierced by a Susano'o arrow, swinging from the ceiling and solely focused on grabbing the sword, and he was also blind; so it's understandable that in the heat of the moment he was overwhelmed and did not notice Itachi create a crow clone. This does not equate to Kabuto being unable to differentiate between the chakra levels in a clone versus an original.

1. Onoki was exhausted and most likely couldn't use Jinton any longer so created what it seems to be 4 Iwa Bunshins to combat/stall until he had a sufficient amount of chakra for Jinton or for Gaara to come aid him. Onoki knows Mu is a sensor, if the clones could be distinguished, then Onoki wouldn't have wasted his chakra creating Bunshins in the first place. It's really that simple. What happened after that went off panel, but the next time we see them the Iwa Bunshins are gone and Onoki is alive. Meaning, the Iwa Bunshins served it's purpose. If they were distinguishable the whole time, Onoki most likely would be dead.

2. Here we go again with this. That whole paragraph does nothing for you because the bunshin didn't come into play in unison with the diversion, as you're implying. After being distracted by the Magnatamas, after being hit by the susano'o arrows, after Kabuto grabbed the sword (which he did purposely to make it look like he was frantic), after Kabuto stabbed Itachi, after Kabuto uttered an entire sentence, then the Karasu bunshin dispersed. You'd think Kabuto would of noticed Itachi's clone carrying a less amount of chakra then the original, but he didn't. And neither did Sasukes EMS pick up on it, despite the fact it can see an amount of chakra as well [

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].

My explanation to this is that sensing and dojutsu can't distinguish an exact amount of chakra; as in differentiating someone at 51% of their chakra to someone with 49%. It only gives them a rough estimate. Karin noticing Kisame having an incredible amount of chakra isn't a presice gauge of the quantity of chakra he posseses. Neither is noticing that that Ay's chakra was increasing, which even non sensors can distinguish [

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]. So actually, the burden of proof is on you bud. A sensor has never differentiated clones within the manga.

Maybe you should try looking in the bottom panel of that scan

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It's the exact same place where

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had just happened a minute before. No other jinton had been used at that point and from the clean cut shape of the rocks it's pretty evident that jinton cut them. Mu and Onoki's last relevant positions to each other before moving can be seen here

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It was almost no distance at all and Mu still reached his position long before Onoki did, you can make up claims like "Mu left for somewhere and Onoki followed him" when it could just as easily be the other way around; the manga shows them moving at the same time. It doesn't change the fact that Mu got there before Onoki did.

What are you even saying here...? That Onoki and Mu flew away to come right back to the same spot they came from? They clearly and obviously moved away from Gaara and the other Edo Kages. If you look at all the different craters on the different sized stone pillars, you'd realize that multiple Jintons were used off panel. Then you're assuming they left at the same exact time when all we saw was a panel of them traveling simultaneously. So the only making up claims here is you, when I'm simply going by the actual manga. In addition to that, you're completely disregarding both there starting points, which wasn't a mere 10 meters or so; and you have no idea which direction they travelled in. Then were pretending that they were both mutually racing to this particular rock. Lot's of false claims. Lot's of assuming. Lot's of wishful thinking. No concrete manga facts as usual.

Which changes absolutely nothing. If Gaara focuses more chakra into his sand, Mu senses a higher abundance of chakra mixed in with the sand and becomes aware of which parts of the sand are fastest and therefore which pose the greatest threat to him. The fact that Mu avoided a sand arm coming at him from directly below at almost point-blank range means that any assaults coming from a further distance away are reacted to easily. The fact that it was a small portion of sand actually makes the feat more impressive, since it takes more time to move a large mass of sand unlike a small amount which Gaara can use to quickly snag opponents.

Overwhelming Mu with huge aoe sand attacks like against Deidara won't work either. It takes longer to move a larger amount of sand, and Mu can sense it coming behind him

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(and still

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on his bird despite his bird's flight speed being slower than Mu's). You don't have any feats of Gaara's sand speed being fast enough to catch Mu.

If Mu can use weighted-rock technique (which he almost certainly can) he can also make Gaara's sand speed much slower by weighing it down [

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]

Oh boy. Evading a miniscule amount of sand is more impressive then avoiding a large AoE of sand... only you. Kimimaro had no problem avoiding small sand clounds [

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]; but quickly got overwhelmed with large AoE [

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]. Use common sense please. It doesn't take longer at all for Gaara to control a huge amount of sand. [

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]-[

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]-[

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]-[

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]. It only takes more chakra to control more sand, obviously. Assuming Gaara is applying the same amount of chakra, it's used at the same speed as a miniscule sand arm. So you can rethink your whole approach on that. Large AoE like Suna Arare aren't avoidable. You'd have to block it, and Mu has no suitable defenses.

Tbh this is the worst excuse I've ever heard. You have no proof that wasn't Gaara's fastest sand speed. Gaara had no reason to hold back or preserve his chakra as the Mizukage was the last of the Edo kages to be sealed (or so Gaara thought.) Gaara didn't even come up with the plan of using his father's gold dust until later on in the fight. Joki Boy consistently outsped Gaara's sand, there's no other way to put it. "Keeping up" with FTG, Kamui, and 8th Gate holds no meaning here, those techniques are tiers above Gaara's sand in speed. Sakura was "keeping up" with Naruto and Sasuke, does that mean she is as fast as them? Lol, obviously not.

Yeah, Ofcourse it is. Gaara had no reason to preserve his chakra...? You're totally right, because the war was over after the Trollkage was sealed. Definitely no reason at all to use the least amount of chakra possible. Use your head. He could of attempted to use large AoE sand tsunamis to capture Joki Boi but he didn't, just miniscule amounts of sand. I never once said Gaaras sand was as fast as these top tier speedsters, but that was a very nice way to completely disregard his sand speed feats that make your position crumble. Nice.

Yep, Mu's reflexes and evasion feats show that he can consistently outspeed Gaara's sand just like Joki Boy did, whereas you have no scans of Gaara's sand being fast enough to catch Mu. Yes Madara dodged that sand as well, Madara with great sharingan precognition and who

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.

Not even going to waist my time entertainaing you with that top bit. Evading small sand clouds are more impressive then evading large AoE's of sand. Gaaras sand proving to be serviceable while used in tandem with FTG, Kamui, and 8G Gai aren't speed feats.
Anyways, in regards to Madara, Gaara blocked his sword slash with sand.

Gaara being fast enough to move in front of a backbroken Onoki means nothing when the distance between them is still way too large for Gaara to span (

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. Gaara showed no signs of fear or alarm but he didn't show any sign of remaining calm or being fearless there either, all we see is his total surprise that Naruto suddenly appeared on the battlefield. Given that we don't see Gaara's reaction until after Naruto arrives you can't use him "not being afraid" as evidence that he could have dealt with jinton or the situation at hand, and from that distance there was clearly nothing he could do about the jinton about to vaporize him. Gaara was gonna be a dead man bro, the manga makes that crystal clear.

Gaara amassing grains of sand together to form a small amount of sand for Naruto to use as a springboard at close range does not mean he can make a cloud of sand appear out of thin air at a much greater distance to move Mu's arms apart and disrupt the jinton formation. Mu only needs to avoid Gaara's initial sand assault, move to a safe distance, then atomize him with jinton.

......And this is where I'm done wasting my time debating anything regarding Mu with you. What kind off retarded statement is that. Gaara didn't show any sign of remaining calm or being fearless? He literally jumped in front Onoki knowing he'd be facing a Jinton. Kishi likes to indicate someones sense of urgency with a "??" or "!?" and/or a facial expression, but nothing here. How in hell is he going to incorporate a sign of "remaining calm or being fearless"..Could you possibly grasp for straws any harder? He knows of Jinton, yet he jumped right in front of it without any indication of worry or thought that he couldn't counter him. That's all that needs to be said.

..........Gaara can't control sand at that range? What, another 10 meters maybe? Based on what? Your hopes and dreams that isn't supported by the manga? Gaara can control sand from over a half village distance away [

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]. Inb4 that's not the same as making a sand cloud appear in thin air, because I know you're desperate. Controlling sand is controlling sand and I already showed you the range of which he can control it from. Regardless if it's assembling sand clouds from the individual grains floating in the air. He's still controlling sand the same way he's controlling it from the surface and Mu isn't anywhere close to being out of his sand control range. Not by a long-shot. As for that last sentence, best of luck with successfully hitting the real Gaara and not a clone.

If you're going to rebuttal, drop the bullshit. Because this is the last time I'm going to waste my time .

 

[Beans2]

1. Onoki was exhausted and most likely couldn't use Jinton any longer so created what it seems to be 4 Iwa Bunshins to combat/stall until he had a sufficient amount of chakra for Jinton or for Gaara to come aid him. Onoki knows Mu is a sensor, if the clones could be distinguished, then Onoki wouldn't have wasted his chakra creating Bunshins in the first place. It's really that simple. What happened after that went off panel, but the next time we see them the Iwa Bunshins are gone and Onoki is alive. Meaning, the Iwa Bunshins served it's purpose. If they were distinguishable the whole time, Onoki most likely would be dead.

2. Here we go again with this. That whole paragraph does nothing for you because the bunshin didn't come into play in unison with the diversion, as you're implying. After being distracted by the Magnatamas, after being hit by the susano'o arrows, after Kabuto grabbed the sword (which he did purposely to make it look like he was frantic), after Kabuto stabbed Itachi, after Kabuto uttered an entire sentence, then the Karasu bunshin dispersed. You'd think Kabuto would of noticed Itachi's clone carrying a less amount of chakra then the original, but he didn't. And neither did Sasukes EMS pick up on it, despite the fact it can see an amount of chakra as well [

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].

My explanation to this is that sensing and dojutsu can't distinguish an exact amount of chakra; as in differentiating someone at 51% of their chakra to someone with 49%. It only gives them a rough estimate. Karin noticing Kisame having an incredible amount of chakra isn't a presice gauge of the quantity of chakra he posseses. Neither is noticing that that Ay's chakra was increasing, which even non sensors can distinguish [

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]. So actually, the burden of proof is on you bud. A sensor has never differentiated clones within the manga.

1 - According to you, Onoki creating rock clones = Mu being unable to differentiate between them? Not substantial evidence. Onoki could have created the bunshins to increase his field of vision so he would notice Mu quicker when he went visible to use jinton. If multiple jintons were used off panel like you say, that means Mu was using jinton to fight and it would benefit Onoki to know Mu's position so he could match his next attack with his own jinton. Onoki making clones because he couldn't use jinton anymore is wrong, because he didn't know he couldn't use jinton until he tried destroying the Mizukage's clam.

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2 - The fact that Kabuto noticed the presence of another Itachi after he stabbed the crow clone destroys your argument. Kabuto stabs clone [

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] > clone disperses and Kabuto notices another Itachi coming at him, hence the exclamation mark in the bottom panel [

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] > Itachi cuts his horn off [

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]. Now look at the last three panels in this scan

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Itachi was running towards Kabuto and you can see him removing Susano'o meaning Itachi formed the clone extremely quick, in between that panel where he was removing Susano'o and the next page where he gets stabbed. In that split second Kabuto just didn't notice a clone was made, hence his surprise when it burst into crows.

What are you even saying here...? That Onoki and Mu flew away to come right back to the same spot they came from? They clearly and obviously moved away from Gaara and the other Edo Kages. If you look at all the different craters on the different sized stone pillars, you'd realize that multiple Jintons were used off panel. Then you're assuming they left at the same exact time when all we saw was a panel of them traveling simultaneously. So the only making up claims here is you, when I'm simply going by the actual manga. In addition to that, you're completely disregarding both there starting points, which wasn't a mere 10 meters or so; and you have no idea which direction they travelled in. Then were pretending that they were both mutually racing to this particular rock. Lot's of false claims. Lot's of assuming. Lot's of wishful thinking. No concrete manga facts as usual.

Okay you're probably correct that several jintons were used and the battle continued off panel. But you agree yes that Mu is at least as fast as Onoki, having the edge due to his sensing/reflexes? Mu isn't a plot-central character so he doesn't get much panel time, and I'm not going to pull out speed feats out of my ass because he doesn't have any, but it makes logical sense that he's at least as fast as Onoki, seeing that they use the same technique to fly and were keeping up with each other in their battle.

Oh boy. Evading a miniscule amount of sand is more impressive then avoiding a large AoE of sand... only you. Kimimaro had no problem avoiding small sand clounds [

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]; but quickly got overwhelmed with large AoE [

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]. Use common sense please. It doesn't take longer at all for Gaara to control a huge amount of sand. [

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]-[

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]-[

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]-[

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]. It only takes more chakra to control more sand, obviously. Assuming Gaara is applying the same amount of chakra, it's used at the same speed as a miniscule sand arm. So you can rethink your whole approach on that. Large AoE like Suna Arare aren't avoidable. You'd have to block it, and Mu has no suitable defenses.

@Bold no that's not what I said. I said Gaara can move small amounts of sand quicker than he can move large amounts of sand if he's putting in the same amount of effort. If Gaara inputs the same amount of chakra into a small sand arm VS a sand tsunami, he would be able to move the sand arm faster unless he compensates by inputting more chakra into the sand tsunami. Compensating lack of sand speed for large AOE attacks won't work for Gaara since at his top speed Mu's

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who would have outflown Gaara's large-scale sand attack if Deidara had sensing like Muu does.

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Deidara doesn't notice the sand coming up behind him until it completely casts a shadow on him. Mu senses that coming from a mile away.

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Deidara still almost manages to escape on his bird. Mu not only senses sand attacking him from any direction but can tell how much chakra Gaara imbues within it, and therefore which sand is fastest and poses the greatest threat (Ultimate defense ain't catching him either.)

Yeah, Ofcourse it is. Gaara had no reason to preserve his chakra...? You're totally right, because the war was over after the Trollkage was sealed. Definitely no reason at all to use the least amount of chakra possible. Use your head. He could of attempted to use large AoE sand tsunamis to capture Joki Boi but he didn't, just miniscule amounts of sand. I never once said Gaaras sand was as fast as these top tier speedsters, but that was a very nice way to completely disregard his sand speed feats that make your position crumble. Nice.

...the battle was over after the Mizukage was sealed, the war not being over is totally irrelevant as Gaara would get time to rest and recuperate after the battle...? There's no reason Gaara would hold back, Joki Boy was troublesome to him and was

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, Gaara's priority should have been catching Joki Boy, he had no reason to preserve his chakra. @Bold, what feats? The ones you still haven't posted?

Not even going to waist my time entertainaing you with that top bit. Evading small sand clouds are more impressive then evading large AoE's of sand. Gaaras sand proving to be serviceable while used in tandem with FTG, Kamui, and 8G Gai aren't speed feats.
Anyways, in regards to Madara, Gaara blocked his sword slash with sand.

Oh yeah, because Madara totally wasn't distracted by fighting an army with taijutsu and blocking a sword slash with sand is even a good feat. You keep saying that Gaara will catch Mu with AoE sand attacks but you haven't provided any evidence or reason for me to believe the sand would catch Mu.

......And this is where I'm done wasting my time debating anything regarding Mu with you. What kind off retarded statement is that. Gaara didn't show any sign of remaining calm or being fearless? He literally jumped in front Onoki knowing he'd be facing a Jinton. Kishi likes to indicate someones sense of urgency with a "??" or "!?" and/or a facial expression, but nothing here. How in hell is he going to incorporate a sign of "remaining calm or being fearless"..Could you possibly grasp for straws any harder? He knows of Jinton, yet he jumped right in front of it without any indication of worry or thought that he couldn't counter him. That's all that needs to be said.

No you are the one fanboying Gaara and grasping at straws. Gaara didn't show any sign of fear = Gaara could have avoided the jinton, according to you. Kishimoto never showed his reaction, only surprise at seeing Naruto. By your logic I could say Mu didn't show any sign of fear or alarm

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so that means Mu can outfly any of Gaara's sand attacks with ease. Judging whether a character would have lived or not by their reaction is a sad and desperate way to go against what the manga made heavily implied: that Naruto saved them at a critical moment.

..........Gaara can't control sand at that range? What, another 10 meters maybe? Based on what? Your hopes and dreams that isn't supported by the manga? Gaara can control sand from over a half village distance away [

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]. Inb4 that's not the same as making a sand cloud appear in thin air, because I know you're desperate. Controlling sand is controlling sand and I already showed you the range of which he can control it from. Regardless if it's assembling sand clouds from the individual grains floating in the air. He's still controlling sand the same way he's controlling it from the surface and Mu isn't anywhere close to being out of his sand control range. Not by a long-shot. As for that last sentence, best of luck with successfully hitting the real Gaara and not a clone.

Smh... learn how sand works. Gaara had grains of sand scattered throughout the air so he grouped them together to form a cloud of sand. You're implying that Gaara had the same amount of sensor sand at Mu's position to group together, fast enough, to form a cloud of sand, strong enough, to pull his arms apart. Right...it makes sense that Gaara kept more sensor sand closer around his body so it would detect Mu in case he went in for an invisible attack. If Gaara could have done that all along, why didn't he do it in the top panel

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? Why didn't he do it at any point in the off-panel battle? No scratch that, why didn't he do it

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? Can Gaara just beat any opponent this way?

If you're going to rebuttal, drop the bullshit. Because this is the last time I'm going to waste my time .

No you know what, don't bother replying. I've wasted my time enough already, and I'm done with you accusing me of fanboying Mu when you overrate Gaara way too much and come up with excuses for the times when he failed. My favorite part is how you kept saying Gaara would use large scaled sand attacks to catch Mu but then didn't post any feat of Gaara's sand being fast enough to catch him. The fact that Mu was about to kill Gaara in canon twice should be enough. If you reply again you better post some relevant scans which actually support your premises, though I'm not expecting that.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

The fact that Mu was about to kill Gaara in canon twice should be enough. If you reply again you better post some relevant scans which actually support your premises, though I'm not expecting that.

Lmao, in beansandcornbreads fairytale; because of Onoki's sudden back failure that put Gaara in the bad position he was in equates to a sufficient reasoning as to why Mu would defeat Gaara. Lol at the audacity on that if factor, that I would endulge in all this. I'll just facepalm and call it a day for NB. Have a nice day, beansandcornbread2.

 

[Beans2]

Lmao, in beansandcornbreads fairytale; because of Onoki's sudden back failure that put Gaara in the bad position he was in equates to a sufficient reasoning as to why Mu would defeat Gaara. Lol at the audacity on that if factor, that I would endulge in all this. I'll just facepalm and call it a day for NB. Have a nice day, beansandcornbread2.

Except Onoki's back failure has absolutely nothing to do with it...? It's what happened in the manga, not a fairytale. As expected, you disliked my post and ragequit NB for the day. Goodbye, I guess.

 

[DMT]

Mu was about to solo both onoki and gaara with jinton



Do the math