Full explanation regarding Kakashi vs Obito and clearing misconceptions

[Trollasaur]

MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT OBITO

Lots of people started raging:
"Kishi ****ed up, there's no way in hell Kakashi could have defeated Obito!"

Some even take it further and use A>B>C logic to supposedly now prove that, for example Itachi>Obito.

The truth is, Obito didn't suddenly become weaker. That NEVER happens in manga with villains, they only grow more powerful. So, here is the full explanation as to why Obito didn't grow weaker and why this week's chapter was NOT an asspull.

1. Kakashi got much more powerful throughout the series, even though he was actually strong at the start. Being defeated by him doesn't make Obito weak at all.

Spoiler

He has been progressing through the whole manga.
1. At the beginning, his limit was 4 raikiri per day. That's how little chakra he had.
2. At the beginning, a not so long usage of base Sharingan would result in KO for a week.
3. Even at the beginning, he was still complimented by Itachi and was able to fight him evenly until he used MS.
4. At the beginning of part 2, he already could use his Sharingan while fighting for a whole night straight and was not even particularly tired (a huge progression from the beginning of the manga).
5. At the beginning of part 2 he could already use Kamui three times a day, but his aim was very poor and the jutsu itself was slow.
6. At every later usage of Kamui, his aim was perfect.
7. During his fight against Sasuke, Kamui was already either instantenous or close to that.
8. When we've finally seen Kakashi again in a prolonged fights (the war) he showed how much his chakra reserves improved: he could use Raikiri twice, probably other jutsu off-panel (the "rampage"), then another raikiri, a kage bunshin which halved his current chakra, raikiri again, a few other techniques and 6 kamuis, all of which had perfect timing and were already so fast that not even a Sharingan user who wanted to keep an eye on it was able to notice it. That was before Kakashi was given ANY chakra by Kurama.

2. Obito didn't have Kamui in the alternate dimension

Spoiler

That's what he has been relying on all this time. Kakashi, on the other hand, uses it as a supplement and not main power. Thus, when both of them were stripped from MS, Kakashi emerged victorious. In the real dimension, it's probably Obito who would win. This makes them equal: Kakashi wins in one dimension, Obito wins in the other one.

3. Just because Kakashi won against Obito doesn't mean Itachi or even Nagato, would.

Spoiler

A>B>C logic is the worst, but the most popular, fallacy. Kakashi is the only person who can counter Obito's kamui, thus, still almost nobody apart from Kakashi can defeat Obito.

4. Obito doesn't suck in taijutsu

Spoiler

He held his own against Naruto and Guy, thanks to Sharingan. Kakashi also has a Sharingan, so he could possibly hold his own against them as well (in taijutsu). Just because one Sharingan user defeated another with taijutsu doesn't mean that even a taijutsu expert without Sharingan could defeat him with it.

MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT KAKASHI:

Some people, on the other hand, do the opposite and claim the fight was unfair and that Kakashi is still way below Obito in terms of strength.

1. The battle wasn't unfair.

Spoiler

While Kakashi has his chakra restored, he has been fighting for two days straight while Obito started fresh against Naruto and Bee (later also Kakashi and Guy), who were all after multiple fights against Zetsu army, immortal Itachi, immortal Nagato, immortal kages, immortal swordsmen and many other immortal (and powerful) opponents.

2. Just because Obito was holding his ground against four opponents as once doesn't mean he is superior to Kakashi

Spoiler

As said earlier, all of them were already after many fights while Obito had full chakra. What's more, Obito did not fight alone, because he had
-Gedo Mazo - which soloed a whole division of ninja alliance
-2 full IMMORTAL bijuus - speaks for itself
-4 v2 IMMORTAL jinchuuriki - Orochimaru struggled against one mortal V2 jinchuuriki - also speaks for itself

3. That was the fight of all ninja abilities

Spoiler

They both used genjutsu, which ended in a deadlock. They both used ninjutsu - Kakashi using Raikiri and raiton fused kunai and Obito using Sashiki and katon. They also both fought with taijutsu. The fact they resorted to everything they had (Obito was never shown using Rinnegan in any way apart from controlling paths, so he might as well not be proficient with it enough) shows the battle was even and legitimate.

To sum up:
-No, Obito can't be defeated by Itachi and possibly not even Nagato
-No, Obito didn't drop out of top 10 rankings
-Yes, Kakashi's place is in top 10 rankings
-No, the battle wasn't unfair
-No, Obito doesn't suck in taijutsu
-No, Obito's battle against Naruto, Bee, Guy and Kakashi doesn't prove he is superior to Kakashi

lol nope......

 

[Trollasaur]

konan hurt him

naruto hurt him

Naruto had kakashis help, Konan had a huge amount of prep time.

 

[OopsWrongHole]

I will argue this has I'm an Itachi fan boy lol kidding that not the reason why. I agree with what you said but I believe Itachi could defeat Obito if he knew about him & his technique, Obito did state that Itachi could of defeated him if he knew all his secrets & Kakashi knows exactly how Obito jutsu works now, like most of main characters do now due to all the information been gathered. So if Itachi did have the same information like Kakashi & the others. I believe without doubt Itachi would of been able to defeat Obito 1 vs 1.

 

[Takos]

lol nope......

Still gonna deny it after base Kakashi pulverized non-MS Obito?

I will argue this has I'm an Itachi fan boy lol kidding that not the reason why. I agree with what you said but I believe Itachi could defeat Obito if he knew about him & his technique, Obito did state that Itachi could of defeated him if he knew all his secrets & Kakashi knows exactly how Obito jutsu works now, like most of main characters do now due to all the information been gathered. So if Itachi did have the same information like Kakashi & the others. I believe without doubt Itachi would of been able to defeat Obito 1 vs 1.

IMO he would be able to pull it off if he had the information PLUS if he did preparations like Konan.
Even with information, if Itachi and Obito were to fight "by surprise", I see no way Itachi could possibly beat Obito.

 

[Trollasaur]

Still gonna deny it after base Kakashi pulverized non-MS Obito?

Kakashi can't compete with people on top ten lists. No I accept that Kakashi did beat Obito 100%, but it was bullshit and it doesn't make any sense all his abliteis were flushed down the toilet. Plot is the only reason Kakashi won.

 

[Trollasaur]

Unless Kakashi Kamui snipes lol

 

[Takos]

Kakashi can't compete with people on top ten lists. No I accept that Kakashi did beat Obito 100%, but it was bullshit and it doesn't make any sense all his abliteis were flushed down the toilet. Plot is the only reason Kakashi won.

About the argument of "abilities being flushed down the toilet":
Abilities are mainly flashy when it's about showing one character's superiority over another one. That's why, for example, at the beginning of part 1, Kakashi effortlessly caught two of Naruto's shuriken in his fingers while reading a freaking book. I guarantee if the same Shuriken were thrown by someone like Obito, then Kakashi would either got hit or would have to stay focused to dodge.

That's why if two characters of similar abilities (not in terms of ability type but their strength) face each other, we don't necessarily see such flashy moves like meteorites being thrown at each other and stuff.

Also, if you further insist on saying Obito was nerfed, I can use this argument, too:
-Kakashi was not shown to copy anything in this fight even though it's his specialty
-Kakashi didn't show us his famous 1000 techniques
And another example from as far as part 1:
-Kakashi didn't use Raikiri, his then strongest jutsu, against Itachi! Going by this logic - it was all a plot-no-jutsu and an asspull and that Kishi limited Kakashi just so that he would lose against Itachi.

I hope you understand my point.
It's not about which techniques the characters used or not - it's about how they fought each other using whatever they were using.

In other words, feats they showed in this battle was a "representation" of their overall skills relative to each other rather than the presentation of all the abilities they possess.

 

[Trollasaur]

About the argument of "abilities being flushed down the toilet":
Abilities are mainly flashy when it's about showing one character's superiority over another one. That's why, for example, at the beginning of part 1, Kakashi effortlessly caught two of Naruto's shuriken in his fingers while reading a freaking book. I guarantee if the same Shuriken were thrown by someone like Obito, then Kakashi would either got hit or would have to stay focused to dodge.

That's why if two characters of similar abilities (not in terms of ability type but their strength) face each other, we don't necessarily see such flashy moves like meteorites being thrown at each other and stuff.

Also, if you further insist on saying Obito was nerfed, I can use this argument, too:
-Kakashi was not shown to copy anything in this fight even though it's his specialty
-Kakashi didn't show us his famous 1000 techniques
And another example from as far as part 1:
-Kakashi didn't use Raikiri, his then strongest jutsu, against Itachi! Going by this logic - it was all a plot-no-jutsu and an asspull and that Kishi limited Kakashi just so that he would lose against Itachi.

I hope you understand my point.
It's not about which techniques the characters used or not - it's about how they fought each other using whatever they were using.

LOL If Obito can tank a rasengan I'm pretty sure he can tank chidori, Obito doesn't use many handsigns. Also I think his firestyle only uses handsigns, Obito can also copy jutsu, u fail lol

 

[Takos]

LOL If Obito can tank a rasengan I'm pretty sure he can tank chidori, Obito doesn't use many handsigns. Also I think his firestyle only uses handsigns, Obito can also copy jutsu, u fail lol

At first I thought we could talk without retardation like "u fail lol", but looks like I've been wrong.
-Obito tanked Rasengan in the mask and in the artificial arm, not to the chest.
-Normal Rasengan is a bit stronger than Chidori, but Raikiri >>> both
-If Obito can copy jutsu just because he has Sharingan, then Kakashi can phase through objects like Obito just because he has Kamui. But you know, neither Kakashi has shown ability of phasing through, nor has Obito shown the ability of copying jutsu.

 

[Trollasaur]

At first I thought we could talk without retardation like "u fail lol", but looks like I've been wrong.
-Obito tanked Rasengan in the mask and in the artificial arm, not to the chest.
-Normal Rasengan is a bit stronger than Chidori, but Raikiri >>> both
-If Obito can copy jutsu just because he has Sharingan, then Kakashi can phase through objects like Obito just because he has Kamui. But you know, neither Kakashi has shown ability of phasing through, nor has Obito shown the ability of copying jutsu.

Every 3 tome sharingan user can copy handsings.
Rasengan=Chidori
Obito also tanked a rasengan to the back.

 

[Takos]

Every 3 tome sharingan user can copy handsings.
Rasengan=Chidori
Obito also tanked a rasengan to the back.

Who said every 3T Sharingan can copy ninjutsu?
It was said that it allows copying, but it doesn't mean every 3T Sharingan user can do it.

Just like it was said MS allows controlling Kyuubi, yet no one (including me) made claims that Kakashi, Itachi or Sasuke could control the Kyuubi. Again, having the theoretical potential to do something doesn't mean you can do it.

 

[Trollasaur]

Who said every 3T Sharingan can copy ninjutsu?
It was said that it allows copying, but it doesn't mean every 3T Sharingan user can do it.

Just like it was said MS allows controlling Kyuubi, yet no one (including me) made claims that Kakashi, Itachi or Sasuke could control the Kyuubi. Again, having the theoretical potential to do something doesn't mean you can do it.

Copying is a common tech, theres no doubt in my mind that Obito can't do it. Obito also knows just about everything about the Uchia and he knows far more advanced techs, I'm confident he can copy ninjutsu

 

[NarutoSamaKama]

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[Young Vongola]

Who said every 3T Sharingan can copy ninjutsu?
It was said that it allows copying, but it doesn't mean every 3T Sharingan user can do it.

Just like it was said MS allows controlling Kyuubi, yet no one (including me) made claims that Kakashi, Itachi or Sasuke could control the Kyuubi. Again, having the theoretical potential to do something doesn't mean you can do it.

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Sharingan means "copy wheel eye". Itachi was seen copying jutsu as well, and Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu

 

[Takos]

Sharingan means "copy wheel eye". Itachi was seen copying jutsu as well, and Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu

Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu which was later copied by Naruto without Sharingan.
Are you referring to fight against Kabuto when saying Itachi copied ninjutsu?

What Sasuke said about Sharingan on the scan you provided is an obvious hype, as no Sharingan user can just because of it fully defeat "all types of tai-, nin- and genjutsu".

What Zabuza said is most likely taken from Bingo Book about Kakashi, since his knowledge of Sharingan was rather limited (he didn't know about Sharingan genjutsu). And if it was taken from an entry about Kakashi, it's obvious it mentioned copying.

Also, the name doesn't prove anything. As I said, Sharingan allows one to copy, but not everyone can do it. Storywise, the name was probably taken from some other individual who was proficient with jutsu copying. Non-storywise, Kishimoto probably then intended to be Sharingan's main ability (Kakashi was the first person with it), so he named it that. No need to read deeper into this.

 

[stormcloud7]

Every 3 tome sharingan user can copy handsings.
Rasengan=Chidori
Obito also tanked a rasengan to the back.

Rasengan > Chidori. When naruto and sasuke both hit the water tanks the rasengan did more damage

 

[Baconheimer]

great thread, makes sense

 

[GucciSinclair]

No way.

Otherwise Itachi would have faced Obito instead of resorting to cheap assassination tricks, out of fear.

Besides, what can Itachi possibly do?
Amaterasu won't work due to Kamui.
Susanoo won't pose any danger due to Kamui.
Susanoo won't protect Itachi due to Kamui - Obito can just phase through
Tsukyomi was broken by a non-MS user who was average in genjutsu, how do you expect to fall for it an MS Uchiha who controlled Kyuubi and Mizukage for half of his life with genjutsu?

Sorry, MS Obito >>>> MS Itachi.

Itachi never feared Obito, Obito agreed to not to attack Konoha just to get Itachi on his side.
Obito's Kamui is def beatable by other characters, as long as the opponent knows how it works, it's not very hard to beat it, for example, Itachi can create 1 shadow clone, since Itachi's taijutsu is at least on par with Kakashi(both 4.5/5 in the databook), which puts it above Obito, this means if Obito wants to gain upper-hand, it's very likely he will have to warp one of the 2 Itachi's(sharingan can't tell shadow clone from real body), Itachi can trick him into warping the shadow clone, then Kamui is beaten, since there is one Itachi on each side, TS in the real world, clone explosion in Kamui dimension at the same time.

that's jus one possibility to beat Kamui, I am not saying Itachi will beat Obito or the other way around.

 

[Takos]

Itachi never feared Obito, Obito agreed to not to attack Konoha just to get Itachi on his side.
Obito's Kamui is def beatable by other characters, as long as the opponent knows how it works, it's not very hard to beat it, for example, Itachi can create 1 shadow clone, since Itachi's taijutsu is at least on par with Kakashi(both 4.5/5 in the databook), which puts it above Obito, this means if Obito wants to gain upper-hand, it's very likely he will have to warp one of the 2 Itachi's(sharingan can't tell shadow clone from real body), Itachi can trick him into warping the shadow clone, then Kamui is beaten, since there is one Itachi on each side, TS in the real world, clone explosion in Kamui dimension at the same time.

that's jus one possibility to beat Kamui, I am not saying Itachi will beat Obito or the other way around.

Your plan has one very serious oversight - why in hell would Obito warp one of Itachi's clones or Itachi to the other dimension if he knows perfectly well that they could attack him both at once?
He only made this mistake against Kakashi and Naruto because he didn't know Kakashi had his chakra restrored and thought that he will be too tired to do anything.

Besides, if for some reason Obito is stupid enough to do it, there's a 50% risk for Itachi that he will become trapped in the other dimension, which, even if he defeated Obito, would mean a death for him (a double KO).

So:
1. Obito would have to be stupid to fall for that.
2. Even if Obito was that stupid, there is 50% chance that both of them die.

Another thing is Itachi hasn't shown bunshin feint proficiency that Kakashi did. Saying that he could do them is only speculation - neither his feats nor hype back it up, as opposed to Kakashi who has both feats and hype related to mastery of bunshin feints (including tricking Itachi twice with them).

 

[Artaya]

Kakashi can't compete with people on top ten lists. No I accept that Kakashi did beat Obito 100%, but it was bullshit and it doesn't make any sense all his abliteis were flushed down the toilet. Plot is the only reason Kakashi won.

Plot is the only reason Obito was so strong. Hey, look at that! It turns out everything is plot.