[Discussion] Freed vs Gray

[Forbidden Tale]

1. No, it's not, I just elaborate above what I said. I wouldn't have a problem with seeing these pannels you talking about... But first when you say current Gray, do you think Grey with Devil Slayer magic, or without it. Either way I could agrue.
First rule of debating in the FT don't use emotion argument. if you want to use that, i can too.
--Gray beaten Ultear, who is most powerful out of 7 Kin. Natsu beat Zancrow, but Zancrow is a good deal weaker than Ultear.
--Gray beaten Silver, who one shotted Natsu.

2. Well, I would say that it would make her weak, ofc if she on top of that has help from Elfman and Lisanna.

3. I can say same for you. Feats is not the only thing that make character strong. Whenever Gray got proper panel time, he shows better "feats" than Natsu, defeating Fukuro, defeating Ultear, defeating Silver.

 

[Memento Mori]

1. No, it's not, I just elaborate above what I said. I wouldn't have a problem with seeing these pannels you talking about... But first when you say current Gray, do you think Grey with Devil Slayer magic, or without it. Either way I could agrue.
First rule of debating in the FT don't use emotion argument. if you want to use that, i can too.
--Gray beaten Ultear, who is most powerful out of 7 Kin. Natsu beat Zancrow, but Zancrow is a good deal weaker than Ultear.
--Gray beaten Silver, who one shotted Natsu.

2. Well, I would say that it would make her weak, ofc if she on top of that has help from Elfman and Lisanna.

3. I can say same for you. Feats is not the only thing that make character strong. Whenever Gray got proper panel time, he shows better "feats" than Natsu, defeating Fukuro, defeating Ultear, defeating Silver.

1. It's obvious that Gray has always stood in another dimension than where Natsu stands. Pre-TS Natsu could still beat Current Gray in a high-extreme diff fight. If you want me to show you panels, I'd be willing to provide them for you. Natsu lost to Fukuro due to two reasons; a. His weakness, motion sickness was used against him. b. He didn't have his power of feelings activated, whereas Gray doesn't have any definite weakness and his power of feelings were already active when he fought Fukuro.

2. That's like saying Mirajane getting hit in her human form with a high-end spell by Tempesta makes her weak/ Saying that beating Mirajane in her human form is the same as beating Mirajane in her Satan Soul. That's flawed. The other two Raijinshuus are not that big of a deal. Freed on the other hand is different. Freed has to be in his combat form to fight. You don't have to buy it, you don't even have to believe it. Logic proves that Freed could've put up a much much better fight in his Darkness form. Besides, his condition when they were hit by Tempesta shows that he could've stood back up and started fighting in his darkness form, albeit still lose, but then Laxus arrived and he worried about staying out of the way.

3. Nope again, you can't use the fact that Natsu has more screen time than Gray to conclude that Gray is stronger. I don't care about pre-development whatsoever, feats show that current Natsu is way above Gray (w/o devil slaying). You're concluding things based on your assumption, you have to mostly rely on what has been shown, and the panels have shown that Natsu is way stronger than Gray.

SO you people are having a debate of PTS Natsu vs Current Gray??.....Current Gray with DS??I heard it correct right?

 

[Killuaa]

1. No, it's not, I just elaborate above what I said. I wouldn't have a problem with seeing these pannels you talking about... But first when you say current Gray, do you think Grey with Devil Slayer magic, or without it. Either way I could agrue.

I said without Devil Slaying, what sort of logic are you even gonna use to defend something we haven't even seen yet? You can't conclude that Gray can use the same effects Silver can since magic takes different forms in the hands of different casters. With the current feats, I'll show you everything now:

Durability: Pre-TS Natsu >> Current Gray
Endurance: Pre TS Natsu > Current Gray
CQC: Pre-TS Natsu >> Current Gray
Long Ranged Combat: Pre-TS Natsu > Current Gray
Firepower: Pre-TS Natsu > Current Gray
DC: Pre-TS Natsu > Current Gray
Speed: Pre-TS Natsu >= Current Gray
Intellect: Pre-TS Natsu << Current Gray

Ask for panels if you disagree with any of these.

First rule of debating in the FT don't use emotion argument. if you want to use that, i can too.
--Gray beaten Ultear, who is most powerful out of 7 Kin. Natsu beat Zancrow, but Zancrow is a good deal weaker than Ultear.
--Gray beaten Silver, who one shotted Natsu.

Nope. You can't with your arguments. How can we not use the emotion argument when almost all fights include it? Are you asking me to equalize Erza to Meredy since they fought equally without POF? Are you asking me to put Lucy above Natsu since Aquarius one-shotted Uosuke who was beating up Natsu? So, no, faulty argument from you again. And no, Ultear isn't the strongest 7 kin, she's the eldest and the leader, doesn't necessarily make her the strongest.. Silver beat Natsu because Natsu was distracted, and he was hit by an Insta-Freeze, why do you think Silver didn't use that against Gray? yeah, that's right. It was CIS.

2. Well, I would say that it would make her weak, ofc if she on top of that has help from Elfman and Lisanna.

I don't know what to say to you if that's your logic. Mirajane alone, we're not talking about her siblings.

3. I can say same for you. Feats is not the only thing that make character strong. Whenever Gray got proper panel time, he shows better "feats" than Natsu, defeating Fukuro, defeating Ultear, defeating Silver.

You're not looking at it objectively. Feats > Everything else. We can use hype if the character barely has any feats or doesn't have any feats at all, like END, Igneel, etc. But Gray and Natsu both have feats, so we're basing it off of that. Saying otherwise is simply covering up for the superiority of one over the other.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I said without Devil Slaying, what sort of logic are you even gonna use to defend something we haven't even seen yet? You can't conclude that Gray can use the same effects Silver can since magic takes different forms in the hands of different casters.

You are the one who said current Gray.. Current Gray is with Devil Slaying magic.

Durability: Pre-TS Natsu >> Current Gray
Endurance: Pre TS Natsu > Current Gray
CQC: Pre-TS Natsu >> Current Gray
Long Ranged Combat: Pre-TS Natsu > Current Gray
Firepower: Pre-TS Natsu > Current Gray
DC: Pre-TS Natsu > Current Gray
Speed: Pre-TS Natsu >= Current Gray
Intellect: Pre-TS Natsu << Current Gray

Ask for panels if you disagree with any of these.

Oh, you remember that Natsu barely beat Max. You want to say that Max is stronger than current Gray???

Nope. You can't with your arguments. How can we not use the emotion argument when almost all fights include it? Are you asking me to equalize Erza to Meredy since they fought equally without POF? Are you asking me to put Lucy above Natsu since Aquarius one-shotted Uosuke who was beating up Natsu? So, no, faulty argument from you again. And no, Ultear isn't the strongest 7 kin, she's the eldest and the leader, doesn't necessarily make her the strongest.. Silver beat Natsu because Natsu was distracted, and he was hit by an Insta-Freeze, why do you think Silver didn't use that against Gray? yeah, that's right. It was CIS.

1. If you don't want to buy that. It's ok with me, it just provide my argument.
2. Yes, she is. I think it was even stated and portraying is there as well.
3. Erza vs Meredy, was not fight to buy so serious. Something similar can be said for Laxus vs Orga. Orga actually was able to keep up with Laxus, for some period of time... After that Jura one shoted him and after that Laxus beat Jura.
4. Again roughtly equal characters, even when distracted wouldn't lose in that manner.

I don't know what to say to you if that's your logic. Mirajane alone, we're not talking about her siblings.

???

I'm qiving you a parallel with Freed, Freed had help from his team mates, so I used same principe here..

You're not looking at it objectively. Feats > Everything else. We can use hype if the character barely has any feats or doesn't have any feats at all, like END, Igneel, etc. But Gray and Natsu both have feats, so we're basing it off of that. Saying otherwise is simply covering up for the superiority of one over the other.

I respectfully disagree but either way I gave you some feats, were Gray was better than Natsu, when he got a chance.

 

[Killuaa]

You are the one who said current Gray.. Current Gray is with Devil Slaying magic.

I thought it was common sense that it was without Devil Slaying Magic

Oh, you remember that Natsu barely beat Max. You want to say that Max is stronger than current Gray???

Umm, you're the one who wants to say that. You're saying POF argument is mute when it's clearly used everytime Mashima gets a chance. Therefore, you can't expel it just because you think it shouldn't be taken into consideration. Max is not stronger than pre-TS Natsu or even pre-TS Gray, that was a fight that would've ended with one punch had Natsu have his POF on.

1. If you don't want to buy that. It's ok with me, it just provide my argument.
2. Yes, she is. I think it was even stated and portraying is there as well.
3. Erza vs Meredy, was not fight to buy so serious. Something similar can be said for Laxus vs Orga. Orga actually was able to keep up with Laxus, for some period of time... After that Jura one shoted him and after that Laxus beat Jura.
4. Again roughtly equal characters, even when distracted wouldn't lose in that manner.

1. What exactly is your number one saying?
2. Yeah, this is a stupid debate if you really think that.
3. It was a fight to buy so serious whatever you call it, Erza used her Heaven's wheel armor and POF Juvia had to save her.
4. Seriously? Look at it like this: Cobra oneshotted Brain when he was distracted. Jiemma who took an onslaught from Natsu got one shotted by Sting. Kagura who was beating up Erza was stabbed by Minerva, Minerva who was later one-shotted by Erza. So no, your argument is full of holes yet again.

I'm qiving you a parallel with Freed, Freed had help from his team mates, so I used same principe here..

You really don't get my point, do you? Why would you even include Mirajane and her siblings when I just included Mirajane alone? Let's leave it there, and attack the main point. If Mirajane was flicked by Jose in her human form and she dies, would you say the same thing would happen if she was flicked in her Satan Soul? The use of magic protects them severely and increases their pain tolerance.
So, no again, if Freed had started in his demon form, he would've been able to stall Tempesta by himself. If you wanna add Bickslow and Evergreen, then they could've even defeated Tempesta with the use of the eye hax. But that's not what happened, Laxus came in moments after Tempesta's arrival and they didn't have the chance to take him on.

I respectfully disagree but either way I gave you some feats, were Gray was better than Natsu, when he got a chance.

Sure, but when all things are considered, Natsu can take Gray no problem. I don't even know where you got the idea that Gray is stronger than Current Natsu, let alone pre-TS Natsu. Stop going by hypes, those are usually misleading.

What sort of panels do you want me to show that proves pre-TS Base Natsu is still stronger than Current gray? Endurance? Speed? Durability? Nukes? Strength?

These things are mostly not a matter of opinion and I don't exactly know where you're taking your opinions from that's why I'm having a debate with you.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Umm, you're the one who wants to say that. You're saying POF argument is mute when it's clearly used everytime Mashima gets a chance. Therefore, you can't expel it just because you think it shouldn't be taken into consideration. Max is not stronger than pre-TS Natsu or even pre-TS Gray, that was a fight that would've ended with one punch had Natsu have his POF on.

1. What is POF? Emotion? If it is so.. As I said it only make my argumet here further.
2. We can say that Max didn't have "pof" (assuming that pof is emotion) on either.

1. What exactly is your number one saying?
2. Yeah, this is a stupid debate if you really think that.
3. It was a fight to buy so serious whatever you call it, Erza used her Heaven's wheel armor and POF Juvia had to save her.
4. Seriously? Look at it like this: Cobra oneshotted Brain when he was distracted. Jiemma who took an onslaught from Natsu got one shotted by Sting. Kagura who was beating up Erza was stabbed by Minerva, Minerva who was later one-shotted by Erza. So no, your argument is full of holes yet again.

1. It say if you want to use argument "emotion" it just make my argument here higher.
2. ???
3. Ok...
4. - I never saw Brain as some strong character, unlike Brain Zero, also last time we saw Brain was 7 years ago, lot of thing could happen during 7 years.
-If I remember correctly Sting went all out that time, unlike Natsu who didn't use his "emotion" back than.
- Erza didn't release her second origin in fight against Kagura (if I remember correctly).

You really don't get my point, do you? Why would you even include Mirajane and her siblings when I just included Mirajane alone? Let's leave it there, and attack the main point. If Mirajane was flicked by Jose in her human form and she dies, would you say the same thing would happen if she was flicked in her Satan Soul? The use of magic protects them severely and increases their pain tolerance.
So, no again, if Freed had started in his demon form, he would've been able to stall Tempesta by himself. If you wanna add Bickslow and Evergreen, then they could've even defeated Tempesta with the use of the eye hax. But that's not what happened, Laxus came in moments after Tempesta's arrival and they didn't have the chance to take him on.

If she is in Satan Soul stong enough to battle full powered Porla, then I would say that she should be able to get up and fight back (even though she is not using Satan Soul), after she is hit by non full powered Porla.

I'm using terms full powered and not full powered because Tempesta himself didn't use full power to beat Freed.

Sure, but when all things are considered, Natsu can take Gray no problem. I don't even know where you got the idea that Gray is stronger than Current Natsu, let alone pre-TS Natsu. Stop going by hypes, those are usually misleading.

What sort of panels do you want me to show that proves pre-TS Base Natsu is still stronger than Current gray? Endurance? Speed? Durability? Nukes? Strength?

These things are mostly not a matter of opinion and I don't exactly know where you're taking your opinions from that's why I'm having a debate with you.

1. I never said that Gray is stronger than Current Natsu. I said Base Gray >/= Base Natsu (which mean Natsu without Lighting Flame Mode). I'm referring to Base Natsu post time skip and Base Gray post time skip. I would agree that Base Gray << LFM Natsu, but I will left the room to see Gray's ability while using Devil Slayer magic to see who out of these two is stronger.

2. As I said, Max was able to put a good fight against pre time skip Natsu. If you say that PTS Natsu >> Current Gray, you basicly saying Max >> Current Gray as well.

 

[Killuaa]

1. What is POF? Emotion? If it is so.. As I said it only make my argumet here further.
2. We can say that Max didn't have "pof" (assuming that pof is emotion) on either.

1. Because you're denying that POF shouldn't be taken into account. 80% of the fights are mixed with POF, you can't just evade that fact just so that the situation will be in Gray's favour. Besides, even without POF, Natsu still has the edge on him.
2. Yeah, because we never saw him have it either, are we gonna assume that he has it? No. We don't get to assume anything especially since they've shown their full power.

1. It say if you want to use argument "emotion" it just make my argument here higher.
2. ???
3. Ok...
4. - I never saw Brain as some strong character, unlike Brain, also last time we saw Brain was 7 years ago, lot of thing could happen during 7 years.
-If I remember correctly Sting went all out that time, unlike Natsu who didn't use his "emotion" back than.
- Erza didn't release her second origin in fight against Kagura (if I remember correctly).

1. Your argument equalises to nothing if you were to ask me. What point have you made that hasn't been debunked yet? Points you've made: 'Ultear was defeated by Gray, the strongest of the 7 kin' My answer: 'No, Ultear was never said to be the strongest, just the leader and the eldest.' And just so you know, that fight was clearly mixed with Plot Induced Stupidity and Power of Feelings. You can't use that to favor your argument.

2. You said Lucy is stronger than Natsu which is pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
4. How you perceive a character barely matters, he was shown to be a match for pre-TS Jura. And no again, those 7 years, they were inside a cell where they weren't able to use their magic in. So, useless argument you just used.

If she is in Satan Soul stong enough to battle full powered Porla, then I would say that she should be able to get up and fight back (even though she is not using Satan Soul), after she is hit by non full powered Porla.

I'm using terms full powered and not full powered because Tempesta himself didn't use full power to beat Freed.

I'm pretty sure you know the flaws in your arguments and you're barely making things up now just for the sake of replying.

Freed was obviously way weaker in his base. How much stronger do you think Tempesta in his Etherious form? You don't. We shouldn't assume. Tempesta, even in base, was still stalemating Natsu. Base Natsu >> Gray.

1. I never said that Gray is stronger than Current Natsu. I said Base Gray >/= Base Natsu (which mean Natsu without Lighting Flame Mode). I'm referring to Base Natsu post time skip and Base Gray post time skip. I would agree that Base Gray << LFM Natsu, but I will left the room to see Gray's ability while using Devil Slayer magic to see who out of these two is stronger.

2. As I said, Max was able to put a good fight against pre time skip Natsu. If you say that PTS Natsu >> Current Gray, you basicly saying Max >> Current Gray as well.

1. Yes you did. I'll quote you for your own sake.

Gray (without Slayer magic) was supposed to be on equal ground with Natsu, before latter got Lighting Flame Mode.

Tempesta was able to beat Freed, Evergreen and Bickslow with no diff and if I remember correctly it was without him using his "Ethorios" form.. Natsu was able to keep up with that form and I see Gray doing same, if not even better than Natsu. By that Gray should win relative easy.

Ofc, it's all assuming that Tempesta didn't use his Ethorius form, since I can't remember well.

So, yeah, you did kinda say that Gray is stronger. How ridiculous that sounds. -.-"

2. Have you read any of my posts before? I said that was default Natsu fighting Max. What part of that do you not get? Default Natsu is not really very impressive, neither is Default Gray. Default Natsu was stalemating Uosuke, a fodder that Aquarius oneshotted. Do you see it now? Default Natsu >= Default Gray, but we're talking about when they're completely serious.
POF Natsu >>> POF Gray.

So, no, where did you even get the idea that POF Natsu = Max? A ridiculous and a nonsensical thing to say.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. Because you're denying that POF shouldn't be taken into account. 80% of the fights are mixed with POF, you can't just evade that fact just so that the situation will be in Gray's favour. Besides, even without POF, Natsu still has the edge on him.
2. Yeah, because we never saw him have it either, are we gonna assume that he has it? No. We don't get to assume anything especially since they've shown their full power.

1. Okay!!! I said multiple times to forgot what I said and use emotion argument.
2. Max is good guy, member of Fairy Tail, Fairy Tail is family, you fight with all you need when you fight for your family, especially if you are good guy.

1. Your argument equalises to nothing if you were to ask me. What point have you made that hasn't been debunked yet? Points you've made: 'Ultear was defeated by Gray, the strongest of the 7 kin' My answer: 'No, Ultear was never said to be the strongest, just the leader and the eldest.' And just so you know, that fight was clearly mixed with Plot Induced Stupidity and Power of Feelings. You can't use that to favor your argument.

2. You said Lucy is stronger than Natsu which is pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
4. How you perceive a character barely matters, he was shown to be a match for pre-TS Jura. And no again, those 7 years, they were inside a cell where they weren't able to use their magic in. So, useless argument you just used.

1. Just by being leader, usually mean that you are strongest. Can you provide that she is not strongest.

-- Plot Induced Stupidity and Power of Feelings? That's what I was referring to when I said you should put emotion aside, but you said it's part of their power level. I will say same now, it's cannon and part of their power level.

2. I never said that Lucy is stronger than Natsu, In that part I refered to Ultear. (she is stongest out of 7 kin)_.
3. Cobra fought with Dragon during GMG arc. Battles alone can make someone stronger and usually characters in FT don't train (actually except training after 7 years) they were never showed training, so I assume they got stronger in battle. Also, Brain during these 7 years aged. If he 7 years ago, where he was a match for PTS Juta in his prime, he could grown weaker during these 7 years and considering that he was one shotted by Cobra in that manner I would say that he got.

I'm pretty sure you know the flaws in your arguments and you're barely making things up now just for the sake of replying.

You are always free to agree to disagree with me. I don't force you to debate me, if you don't.

Freed was obviously way weaker in his base. How much stronger do you think Tempesta in his Etherious form? You don't. We shouldn't assume. Tempesta, even in base, was still stalemating Natsu. Base Natsu >> Gray.

Why we shouldn't assume? Is there some rule that forbidd that. In my first post I stated my own opinion and draw some parallels with assuming ofc, you were free to say "Oh, I respect your opinion, tho, I respectfully disagree" or something like that.

1. Yes you did. I'll quote you for your own sake.

What I wrote is:

Tempesta was able to beat Freed, Evergreen and Bickslow with no diff and if I remember correctly it was without him using his "Ethorios" form.. Natsu was able to keep up with that form and I see Gray doing same, if not even better than Natsu

1st underline: Tempesta beat them without his his true form
2nd underline and 3rd underline: Natsu was able to keep up with that form (referrring to Base Tempesta), now look back in the chapter and you will see that Ligtning mode Natsu never fought Base Tempesta. Base Natsu fought Base Tempesta and after Base Tempesta used his true form, Natsu activated his Lightning Flame Mode, so when I said: "I see Gray doing same, if not even better than Natsu" I thought about Gray doing same job or doing slightly better than Base Natsu.

So, yeah, you did kinda say that Gray is stronger. How ridiculous that sounds. -.-"

It's offensive what you just now said... It's not ridiculous, you just disagree with me, which is completely fine.

2. Have you read any of my posts before? I said that was default Natsu fighting Max. What part of that do you not get? Default Natsu is not really very impressive, neither is Default Gray. Default Natsu was stalemating Uosuke, a fodder that Aquarius oneshotted. Do you see it now? Default Natsu >= Default Gray, but we're talking about when they're completely serious.
POF Natsu >>> POF Gray.

So, no, where did you even get the idea that POF Natsu = Max? A ridiculous and a nonsensical thing to say.

Again, Max didn't use POF either.. Not really sure, but didn't you just earlier said that POF is big part of FT. And when I think harder, didn't Natsu use "POF" against Max, when he got piseed off that he can't beat "fodder" Max.

 

[Killuaa]

1. Okay!!! I said multiple times to forgot what I said and use emotion argument.
2. Max is good guy, member of Fairy Tail, Fairy Tail is family, you fight with all you need when you fight for your family, especially if you are good guy.

2. So? What does that prove? We don't know how much POF boosts him. Therefore, that argument is mute.

1. Just by being leader, usually mean that you are strongest. Can you provide that she is not strongest.

-- Plot Induced Stupidity and Power of Feelings? That's what I was referring to when I said you should put emotion aside, but you said it's part of their power level. I will say same now, it's cannon and part of their power level.

2. I never said that Lucy is stronger than Natsu, In that part I refered to Ultear. (she is stongest out of 7 kin)_.
3. Cobra fought with Dragon during GMG arc. Battles alone can make someone stronger and usually characters in FT don't train (actually except training after 7 years) they were never showed training, so I assume they got stronger in battle. Also, Brain during these 7 years aged. If he 7 years ago, where he was a match for PTS Juta in his prime, he could grown weaker during these 7 years and considering that he was one shotted by Cobra in that manner I would say that he got.

1. Do I really have to? Terra Clamare, nuff said.
2. Ultear is not the strongest, Zancrow and Azuma are both stronger than her simply because she was not completely on that fight. Her mind was flying off somewhere.
3. Sure, but he's not an FT member so it wouldn't give him that big of a boost. Besides, the fight was off-paneled and from what we know, Cobra was on the losing side during the majority of the fight. And no, characters in FT don't grow weaker unless they're sick or something. So no, Freed being distracted is a factor.

You are always free to agree to disagree with me. I don't force you to debate me, if you don't.

I'm aware people can have different outlooks than what I have, I'm just debating with you since I don't understand why you think what you think.

Why we shouldn't assume? Is there some rule that forbidd that. In my first post I stated my own opinion and draw some parallels with assuming ofc, you were free to say "Oh, I respect your opinion, tho, I respectfully disagree" or something like that.

We shouldn't assume because a mind is an imaginative entity. Assumptions will lead to confusions and misconceptions. That's why we can only look at what we've seen. Now, if the assumption is logical in its own right. But no, your assumption sort of states:

"I'm using terms full powered and not full powered because Tempesta himself didn't use full power to beat Freed."

Now, we know how much stronger Freed gets when he transforms, but we don't know how much stronger Tempesta gets. What sort of pattern are you gonna follow to assume that he's very much stronger in his Etherious form? Sure he's stronger, but the question is, by how much?

What I wrote is:

1st underline: Tempesta beat them without his his true form
2nd underline and 3rd underline: Natsu was able to keep up with that form (referrring to Base Tempesta), now look back in the chapter and you will see that Ligtning mode Natsu never fought Base Tempesta. Base Natsu fought Base Tempesta and after Base Tempesta used his true form, Natsu activated his Lightning Flame Mode, so when I said: "I see Gray doing same, if not even better than Natsu" I thought about Gray doing same job or doing slightly better than Base Natsu.

1. Freed lost without his true form, he could've stood back up, but then Laxus came and he worried about staying out of the way.
2 and 3. Don't hit a strawman. I never said LFD fought Base Tempesta. Besides, I've been asking why you think Gray could take Tempesta better than Natsu did, you've been avoiding the question.

It's offensive what you just now said... It's not ridiculous, you just disagree with me, which is completely fine.

I apologise if you're offended but all my point still stands. I disagree with it because all forms of evidences would disagree with you right there. I've given you different sorts of logic to go by, and yet you stand with your initial statement via a baseless assumption. I've asked you if you wanted me to provide feats, you never directly said yes and so I assumed that you didn't need it. I think you do know that Gray won't do any better than Base Natsu against Base Tempesta, so I'm wondering why you're standing by this statement.

Again, Max didn't use POF either.. Not really sure, but didn't you just earlier said that POF is big part of FT. And when I think harder, didn't Natsu use "POF" against Max, when he got piseed off that he can't beat "fodder" Max.

I said POF is a big part of FT, the series, not the guild. Max has never been shown to have it, therefore, I can't estimate to how strong it could get considering they all have different forms of POF, or if he even has POF. Getting pissed=/= Full blown POF.

 

[aot23]

Gray wins .

 

[Forbidden Tale]

2. So? What does that prove? We don't know how much POF boosts him. Therefore, that argument is mute.

If you want to go that way, why you don't exclude Natsu's "POF" as well? It's more fair.

1. Do I really have to? Terra Clamare, nuff said.
2. Ultear is not the strongest, Zancrow and Azuma are both stronger than her simply because she was not completely on that fight. Her mind was flying off somewhere.
3. Sure, but he's not an FT member so it wouldn't give him that big of a boost. Besides, the fight was off-paneled and from what we know, Cobra was on the losing side during the majority of the fight. And no, characters in FT don't grow weaker unless they're sick or something. So no, Freed being distracted is a factor.

1. Terra Clamure is who/what?
2. So because she wasn't with her mind in one fight, she is not strongest?
3. I didn't say anything against your first part of point here. It depends on individual, either way Brain could got some sickness in the prison, it's wouldn't be first time that something like that happen.

We shouldn't assume because a mind is an imaginative entity. Assumptions will lead to confusions and misconceptions. That's why we can only look at what we've seen. Now, if the assumption is logical in its own right. But no, your assumption sort of states:

I'm not sure what the problem is. If we only compared characters based solely on what we saw, and we know for a fact that at least one of them has not shown all of their techniques, then I think we'd end up with skewed power charts all over the place.

If you go by that way that would be completely unfair for one character. If someone use some power and on top of that he has more power, since it was stated that he has, that I don't see the problem with assuming.

"I'm using terms full powered and not full powered because Tempesta himself didn't use full power to beat Freed."

Now, we know how much stronger Freed gets when he transforms, but we don't know how much stronger Tempesta gets. What sort of pattern are you gonna follow to assume that he's very much stronger in his Etherious form? Sure he's stronger, but the question is, by how much?

1. Parallel
2. Parallel

1. Freed lost without his true form, he could've stood back up, but then Laxus came and he worried about staying out of the way.
2 and 3. Don't hit a strawman. I never said LFD fought Base Tempesta. Besides, I've been asking why you think Gray could take Tempesta better than Natsu did, you've been avoiding the question.

1. He stood back up, but if I remember correctly he was so exhauseted. You think that he would has some chance against him.
2. I said that long ago, why I think that Base Gray could do same job against or slightly better than Base Natsu. Battle with Fukuro. Base Natsu lost to (or let's say tied) with Fukuro, Gray on the other hand, not just that he beaten Fukuro. but he defeated Fukuro + power up from Natsu.

I disagree with it because all forms of evidences would disagree with you right there. I've given you different sorts of logic to go by, and yet you stand with your initial statement via a baseless assumption. I've asked you if you wanted me to provide feats, you never directly said yes and so I assumed that you didn't need it. I think you do know that Gray won't do any better than Base Natsu against Base Tempesta, so I'm wondering why you're standing by this statement.

Read my second point above. How is that "Baseless assumption"? Again read what I wrote above in point two.

I said POF is a big part of FT, the series, not the guild. Max has never been shown to have it, therefore, I can't estimate to how strong it could get considering they all have different forms of POF, or if he even has POF. Getting pissed=/= Full blown POF.

I just checked, and after battle with Max, Natsu collapsed, which would mean that he hit his limit there.

 

[Memento Mori]

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Debaters don't bring emotions thing here.Only Use the feats & you own imagination of how you turn those feats VS debates without twisting the Mangascans.

Power of Friendship will not give you special powers,it only enables you to access your already existed power within.For example Naruto after seeing obito's death he got enraged & ripped off kaguya's hand...Does that mean his emotions gave him power?No,it let him use his already existed inner potential with a bit of uncontrollable rage.For another example,Gokuh when witnessed fodder krillin's death in frieza arc,he turned into Super Saiyan.Does emotions gave power?No,it only triggered Gokuh's dormant power.For another example,Natsu after hearing what happen'd to Yukino,he got enraged(felt more emotion'l) and went to Sabertooth & fought that strongest guild only to find out that minerva halt'd that fight.Does that mean Natsu's Power of feeling's gave him more power?No,It only let....blah blah....Another one after losing to Rufus,gray emotions got skyrocket'd & he went on & finally won that fight.Does Gray's Feeling's help him to win that match?No,Gray used his own power & a tactic to beat Rufus or else gray would have probably again lost to the same Rufus.There are no such a thing as power of emotions existed in practical,it is only theoritical.It is kind of feelings & nothing more.Both of you can use the scans to back up your arguements but no POF thing U_U

Excluding some parts...that is some good debating on both of you

I think you two need to create a separate VS thread of PTS Natsu VS Current Gray without DS to find your 'own' Conclusion.This thread is afterall Freed VS Gray

 

[Killuaa]

If you want to go that way, why you don't exclude Natsu's "POF" as well? It's more fair.

What are you even blabbering about? Restricting it is like restricting 90% of all the fights. It's like not taking any feats from anybody at all since it's always used.

1. Terra Clamure is who/what?
2. So because she wasn't with her mind in one fight, she is not strongest?
3. I didn't say anything against your first part of point here. It depends on individual, either way Brain could got some sickness in the prison, it's wouldn't be first time that something like that happen.

1. You don't even know what that is? It's Azuma's attack, it outdoes anything Ultear's attacks.
2. No. Because she wasn't shown to be the strongest, therefore, you can't say she's the strongest just because you want to.
3. You're assuming things now. It wasn't said neither implied, therefore, he didn't.

I'm not sure what the problem is. If we only compared characters based solely on what we saw, and we know for a fact that at least one of them has not shown all of their techniques, then I think we'd end up with skewed power charts all over the place.

If you go by that way that would be completely unfair for one character. If someone use some power and on top of that he has more power, since it was stated that he has, that I don't see the problem with assuming.

1. Who are we talking about here?
- If it's Gray and Natsu, they both have shown all their attacks.
- If it's Ultear, it doesn't matter, sure, I'm not denying the possibility that she's the strongest, but based on what we saw, she's not the strongest, and she lost to Gray without having shown her entire power, therefore, Gray beat a weaker 7 kin than what Natsu defeated. I hope you get my point now.

1. Parallel
2. Parallel

1. What?
2. What?

1. He stood back up, but if I remember correctly he was so exhauseted. You think that he would has some chance against him.
2. I said that long ago, why I think that Base Gray could do same job against or slightly better than Base Natsu. Battle with Fukuro. Base Natsu lost to (or let's say tied) with Fukuro, Gray on the other hand, not just that he beaten Fukuro. but he defeated Fukuro + power up from Natsu.

1. No, he didn't stand back up. The attack Tempesta used had a side effect of paralysis, which worked, and he therefore couldn't stand, but if he wasn't hit, or if push had come to shove, he would've forced himself to stand up using his runes.
2. You keep using that example when I've debunked it like 5 times already. Natsu only lost because his weakness was used against him, motion sickness and he didn't have his POF on. Gray had his POF on when he fought Fukuro and he doesn't have any great weakness that could've been used against him, and therefore, he won. Do you get why Natsu lost now?

Read my second point above. How is that "Baseless assumption"? Again read what I wrote above in point two.

I just checked, and after battle with Max, Natsu collapsed, which would mean that he hit his limit there.

1. That's because a Lightning Flame Dragon Mode Roar is exhaustive. It wasn't because Max was so strong that Natsu collapsed. I think you know that yourself, I don't know why you're shrugging your head away from it.
2. Even with his own flames alone, he could've beaten Max.
3. Did you see the scale and the DC of the LFD roar? It cut the earth and it was more or less town-scaled ++

 

[Killuaa]

Debaters don't bring emotions thing here.Only Use the feats & you own imagination of how you turn those feats VS debates without twisting the Mangascans.

It doesn't matter what debaters use here. The argument with using POF is more valid and sound than anything that disregards a valid conception of a logic to simply give one character a great edge over the other. In other words, an objective way of looking at it. We all know that most fights done in Fairy Tail was done with the inclusion of the concept of Power of Feelings which boosts their overall power, or simply don them more control of what power lies inside of them. Some fights, however, don't include it. In those cases, the fight would either be a comedic relief for the readers or simply a fight to cover panels until the character who's supposed to fight the particular villain arrives.

Power of Friendship will not give you special powers,it only enables you to access your already existed power within.

Exactly my point. Whatever any character has shown in the manga/anime are all significant to the storyline of the series and must therefore not be dropped to simply put a character above the other one.

For another example,Natsu after hearing what happen'd to Yukino,he got enraged(felt more emotion'l) and went to Sabertooth & fought that strongest guild only to find out that minerva halt'd that fight.Does that mean Natsu's Power of feeling's gave him more power?No,It only let....blah blah....Another one after losing to Rufus,gray emotions got skyrocket'd & he went on & finally won that fight.Does Gray's Feeling's help him to win that match?No,Gray used his own power & a tactic to beat Rufus or else gray would have probably again lost to the same Rufus.There are no such a thing as power of emotions existed in practical,it is only theoritical.It is kind of feelings & nothing more.Both of you can use the scans to back up your arguements but no POF thing U_U

All these points are valid, but you have to look at it with a more distinct perspective. Gray was getting beaten up by Rufus the same way Natsu was getting beat up by Sting. I doubt those two fights are actually inclined to be considered as mostly POF battle, but rather, a fight that simply shows what they're capable of even without being completely enraged. Sure, it's mixed up with POF, but it was mostly freestyle.

I think you two need to create a separate VS thread of PTS Natsu VS Current Gray without DS to find your 'own' Conclusion.This thread is afterall Freed VS Gray

I don't really care about Pre-TS Natsu vs Gray. I'm simply using it as a piece of evidence and let some people see that they're highly overrating Gray most of the time.

 

[Memento Mori]

It doesn't matter what debaters use here. The argument with using POF is more valid and sound than anything that disregards a valid conception of a logic to simply give one character a great edge over the other. In other words, an objective way of looking at it. We all know that most fights done in Fairy Tail was done with the inclusion of the concept of Power of Feelings which boosts their overall power, or simply don them more control of what power lies inside of them. Some fights, however, don't include it. In those cases, the fight would either be a comedic relief for the readers or simply a fight to cover panels until the character who's supposed to fight the particular villain arrives.



Exactly my point. Whatever any character has shown in the manga/anime are all significant to the storyline of the series and must therefore not be dropped to simply put a character above the other one.



All these points are valid, but you have to look at it with a more distinct perspective. Gray was getting beaten up by Rufus the same way Natsu was getting beat up by Sting. I doubt those two fights are actually inclined to be considered as mostly POF battle, but rather, a fight that simply shows what they're capable of even without being completely enraged. Sure, it's mixed up with POF, but it was mostly freestyle.



I don't really care about Pre-TS Natsu vs Gray. I'm simply using it as a piece of evidence and let some people see that they're highly overrating Gray most of the time.

ahh!I find it weird when people use POF in debates.You can use the feats they showed tho

 

[Killuaa]

ahh!I find it weird when people use POF in debates.You can use the feats they showed tho

Everyone in FT uses POF. Whatever feats I give you, the only ones where it wasn't used was against weak fodders, comedic reliefs and a fight between friends. That's a fact that comes with the existence of the Fairy Tail series. You don't have to like it, or even agree with it.

Even if I show you feats, most of those will include POF. There's no FT without POF.

What feats do you want me to provide to prove something?

 

[Memento Mori]

Everyone in FT uses POF. Whatever feats I give you, the only ones where it wasn't used was against weak fodders, comedic reliefs and a fight between friends. That's a fact that comes with the existence of the Fairy Tail series. You don't have to like it, or even agree with it.

Even if I show you feats, most of those will include POF. There's no FT without POF.

What feats do you want to provide to prove something?

Many animes does that Friendship theme....but I found that FT Friendship theme is heart touching U_U
Here I am not debating with you or what?I am only saying to use feats or your own imagination rather than posting POF does this or does that.VS threads are debates against character of Manga/Anime....this isn't debating about Anime/Manga in general,is it?

 

[Killuaa]

Many animes does that Friendship theme....but I found that FT Friendship theme is heart touching U_U
Here I am not debating with you or what?I am only saying to use feats or your own imagination rather than posting POF does this or does that.VS threads are debates against character of Manga/Anime....this isn't debating about Anime/Manga in general,is it?

You're asking me to show feats, but don't want to include POF, when most of the fights that the series have provided us include that concept.

You can't exactly use other series as reference here, because unlike Dragon Ball, etc, FT is mostly reliant on the POF concept, whereas Dragon Ball is more of people being born for greatness and such.

I am using feats. I just haven't provided any panels yet. I think you'd know when POF is used and when it isn't, so it's legitimate reasoning to say that POF is used in one condition and say that it isn't in the other. I'm debating about manga, but the portrayal is not really that different with anime, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

[Memento Mori]

You're asking me to show feats, but don't want to include POF, when most of the fights that the series have provided us include that concept.

You can't exactly use other series as reference here, because unlike Dragon Ball, etc, FT is mostly reliant on the POF concept, whereas Dragon Ball is more of people being born for greatness and such.

I am using feats. I just haven't provided any panels yet. I think you'd know when POF is used and when it isn't, so it's legitimate reasoning to say that POF is used in one condition and say that it isn't in the other. I'm debating about manga, but the portrayal is not really that different with anime, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Debating about Manga?Oh I see!

 

[Forbidden Tale]

2. No. Because she wasn't shown to be the strongest, therefore, you can't say she's the strongest just because you want to.

Yes, just by earning title "leader" show that. Just look at the principe FT use... During GMG arc all leaders were strongest of their teams (Jura, Ichiya, Bacchus, Minerva)... Midnight is de facto leader of Oracion Seis (when we don't count Zero), Bluenote is on the higher position than 7 kin, and he is strongest.. Laxus is leader of Raijinshuu, and he is strongest, when he is not around, leader is Freed second strongest.

3. You're assuming things now. It wasn't said neither implied, therefore, he didn't.

It's more logical to believe in that, than in simple Cobra just one shotted him and he was more powerful than him... Either way, I don't have a problem with that, as I said I never saw Brain as someone strong, unlike Zero, if he one stotted Zero (he didn't), than it would be valid.

1. Who are we talking about here?
- If it's Gray and Natsu, they both have shown all their attacks.
- If it's Ultear, it doesn't matter, sure, I'm not denying the possibility that she's the strongest, but based on what we saw, she's not the strongest, and she lost to Gray without having shown her entire power, therefore, Gray beat a weaker 7 kin than what Natsu defeated. I hope you get my point now.

Actually I don't. I remember that this debate stated with Freed vs Gray and with my assuming/parallels, but I don't even remember what I was referring with. It was probably Natsu's screen time, which he got more than any other character, which give him more "feats"/.

1. No, he didn't stand back up. The attack Tempesta used had a side effect of paralysis, which worked, and he therefore couldn't stand, but if he wasn't hit, or if push had come to shove, he would've forced himself to stand up using his runes.

Just a couple of posts ago you said: "Freed lost without his true form, he could've stood back up, but then Laxus came and he worried about staying out of the way."

2. You keep using that example when I've debunked it like 5 times already. Natsu only lost because his weakness was used against him, motion sickness and he didn't have his POF on. Gray had his POF on when he fought Fukuro and he doesn't have any great weakness that could've been used against him, and therefore, he won. Do you get why Natsu lost now?

Happy acknowlege Fukuro as someone who fought equal with Natsu, who know Natsu's strength better than Happy? by that my poits still stands here. Even if I agree with sickness, it would just change that Natsu was weaker than Fukuro, but it wouldn't change that Gray was better.

1. That's because a Lightning Flame Dragon Mode Roar is exhaustive. It wasn't because Max was so strong that Natsu collapsed. I think you know that yourself, I don't know why you're shrugging your head away from it.
2. Even with his own flames alone, he could've beaten Max.
3. Did you see the scale and the DC of the LFD roar? It cut the earth and it was more or less town-scaled ++

Natsu collapsed, so i don't see a problem. Even others who were watching fights said that Natsu don't go very well against Max. Natsu couldn't beat him with his own flames alone, so he used LFD.