sageadvice
Member
thanks! and to all those that say setsuna's too fodder, how is he more fodder than kagami, obito, or izuna?
Final (We hope) Countdown. Tobi ID theories and discsussions
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Because all three of those people are relevant to the story.
Kagami: Part of Danzo's team, not present at the Uchiha Massacre, RELEVANCE
Izuna: Gave MADARA UCHIHA his ****ing power. Without his eyes, none of this would be happening right now. Plus he was said to be on par with Madara in his younger days. RELEVANCE
Obito: You're calling Obito fodder? Do you even read this Manga? RELEVANCE
Setsuna: Some random *** Uchiha that's never had more than one panel of screen-time, and even in that, he was in the background.
Did you really just ask that?
ShadowBandit
Active member
Is this were post our tobi theories?
Uhhh, I don't know who's body is tobi's but I think in his mind, he's the jubi in some sorta weird incarnate.
Why I think this, we'll I believe the Sage of Six Paths didn't posses the powers of the Sharigan till he became the jinjurkchi of the Jubi. That being said, when passed on his power to his elder son, the Jubi secretly passed on the shargian genes as well as part of his sub-conscious. When the genes of the shargian eventually arose in the Uchica clan, the Jubi's conscious took over some random Uchiha, and now is trying to restore his body form gezo statue.
That's why Tobi says his plan is "To become complete", the Jubi wants to restore himself, so he can take over the world.
Uhhh, I don't know who's body is tobi's but I think in his mind, he's the jubi in some sorta weird incarnate.
Why I think this, we'll I believe the Sage of Six Paths didn't posses the powers of the Sharigan till he became the jinjurkchi of the Jubi. That being said, when passed on his power to his elder son, the Jubi secretly passed on the shargian genes as well as part of his sub-conscious. When the genes of the shargian eventually arose in the Uchica clan, the Jubi's conscious took over some random Uchiha, and now is trying to restore his body form gezo statue.
That's why Tobi says his plan is "To become complete", the Jubi wants to restore himself, so he can take over the world.
Cthulhu420
Member
I think Tobi is the Senju Clan Ancestor.
Why I believe Tobi is the Senju Clan Ancestor (along with a few more theories);
- Tobi told the story of the Sage's sons from a neutral point of view, but he had nothing but bad things to say about the Uchiha Ancestor. Think about it like this, the story would've been told similarly if coming from the Senju ancestor.
Tobi basically explained that for one reason or another, So6P chose his younger son(Senju) instead of his older son to carry out his dreams of peace, which seems unusual in itself. He then went on to explain that envy caused the Uchiha Ancestor to attack the Senju ancestor.
Heavy speculation, but is it possible that the Senju Clan Ancestor one way or another manipulated the Sage into choosing him, and the Uchiha Ancestor saw through it(possibly with his special eyes?) and attacked the Senju Son due to his wrong doing? Just some food for thought.
- It would explain how Tobi has Senju and Uchiha DNA, making him able to use Izanagi, because the Sharingan could count as Uchiha DNA. Also the fact that Tobi could use "Perfect" Izanagi (Like a pro, I might add), and Danzo couldn't, that alone tells me that Tobi has genes or experience that help him use the technique better.
- Tobi and the Senju clan ancestor have strikingly similar appearances/sillohuettes (Similar hair, identical eyebrows, identical placement of forhead apparel, nearly identical eye and nose shape, with just a few more wrinkles on Tobi).
- This would also explain the mask, because maybe there's a chance that people would recognize him possibly? It's seems unlikey Kishi showed us the appearance of the two ancestors for nothing, so their appearance might be vital in one way or another.
- This would explain how Tobi lived to such a rediculous age. Remember it was the younger son whom inherited the Sage's body, thus causing Senju's to have incredible longevity. Something that Tobi most definately has. This is also one of the few theories (I can think of) that explain Tobi's rediculous age.
- This would also explain how Tobi has a lot of rather apocraphal information that would otherwise be too esoteric for anyone else to know anything about.
- This could explain the statement in which Tobi refers to himself as "A shell of [his] former self." Since we know for a fact that the two Sons battled (Well according to Tobi anyway, though this actually seems true), it's possible the battle left him so heavily damaged that he became weakened. It would make sense that his own brother could do that level of damage to him.
- Also, If Tobi was the Senju Clan Ancestor, it would be a hell of a twist and change of allegiance. And we know how much Kishi likes those (Itachi, Sasuke, Nagato, Gaara, Konan, Zabuza, ect).
ISSUES WITH THIS THEORY,
Not many, but the biggest one is the question as to why the Senju Ancestor would have the motivation to do everything Tobi has done/claims he wants to do. My response to this is that, like stated above, if he truly is evil enough to warrant his older brother attacking him, maybe he's been evil all along, and has been planning the events that are taking place for some time.
UCHIHA ANCESTOR/SAGE'S ELDER SON THEORY
- There isn't much evidence supporting this son as Tobi's identity. Infact, the only real support for this claim is that the Elder Son would likely have a motive for the actions Tobi has done, at least according to Tobi's description of him. That as well as the Elder son is one of the few people who would has access to the information Tobi has.
- Also this would explain Tobi's "Shell of my former self" quote, because at the time when that was said, he had no rinnegan. Something the Elder bro was said to have, or at least some form of it.
- This might also explain why Tobi believes Nagato's rinnegan belongs to him, though he also may have been speaking from Madara's point of view at the time, a habit he kept up until quite recently. Though it could be argued that since Konan was near death, he is less likely to lie. To anyone who thinks that, keep in mind we are talking about Tobi here.
- There's a mild resemblence, (Tobi's hair during flashbacks).
MADARA CLONE/CREATION/Zetsu-type thing
- The strongest evidence for this theory remains the same as always. Tobi himself has stated, even in private, that he has the power of Uchiha Madara. He also told Konan that he was Uchiha Madara with the powers of Hashirama Senju when he knew she was as good as dead. Of course very little of what Tobi says can be confirmed as true, so this isn't really hard evidence. Though
this leads to the next piece of evidence.
- Multible important and wise characters, like Minato and Jiraiya believed Madara was somehow involved with the Akatsuki, even though he hadn't even met Tobi face to face. He simply figured that out on his own. This alone gives some credibility to the fact that he actually is Madara, or his creation or clone of some sort. There must be some reason behind these feelings or they wouldn't have been noted (hopefully).
- Muu's splitting ability was introduced just a chapter or so before Madara was shown to be resurrected with Edo Tensei. This couldd be foreshadowing.
Another thought on the “split theory” is that Edo Madara thought Nagato revived him before he realized what is going on. Tobi mentioned wanting Nagato to do just that for himself. Again, he was likely speaking from Madara's point of view, but still the fact that he even knew Madara's plans concerning Rinne Tensei simply proves that he was involved with Madara closely.
Problems with this theory:
- We've already seen the majority of Tobi's face, and there dosesn't seem to have any hideous deformity indicating him being a Zetsu clone, or even a resemblance to Madara or any other tell tale sign of this scenario. Not to say this theory is out the window or anything, but that is worth noting.
- Edo Madara seems to believe what Kabuto told him through Muu, which is basically that Tobi isn't entirely trustworthy. It seems strange that Madara wouldn't trust his own creation.
Obito
- This would explain virtually nothing and leave more questions than answers.
- Anyone who honestly thinks this is mentally retarded. That being said, if this was the case, Kishi isn't much better.
Why I believe Tobi is the Senju Clan Ancestor (along with a few more theories);
- Tobi told the story of the Sage's sons from a neutral point of view, but he had nothing but bad things to say about the Uchiha Ancestor. Think about it like this, the story would've been told similarly if coming from the Senju ancestor.
Tobi basically explained that for one reason or another, So6P chose his younger son(Senju) instead of his older son to carry out his dreams of peace, which seems unusual in itself. He then went on to explain that envy caused the Uchiha Ancestor to attack the Senju ancestor.
Heavy speculation, but is it possible that the Senju Clan Ancestor one way or another manipulated the Sage into choosing him, and the Uchiha Ancestor saw through it(possibly with his special eyes?) and attacked the Senju Son due to his wrong doing? Just some food for thought.
- It would explain how Tobi has Senju and Uchiha DNA, making him able to use Izanagi, because the Sharingan could count as Uchiha DNA. Also the fact that Tobi could use "Perfect" Izanagi (Like a pro, I might add), and Danzo couldn't, that alone tells me that Tobi has genes or experience that help him use the technique better.
- Tobi and the Senju clan ancestor have strikingly similar appearances/sillohuettes (Similar hair, identical eyebrows, identical placement of forhead apparel, nearly identical eye and nose shape, with just a few more wrinkles on Tobi).
- This would also explain the mask, because maybe there's a chance that people would recognize him possibly? It's seems unlikey Kishi showed us the appearance of the two ancestors for nothing, so their appearance might be vital in one way or another.
- This would explain how Tobi lived to such a rediculous age. Remember it was the younger son whom inherited the Sage's body, thus causing Senju's to have incredible longevity. Something that Tobi most definately has. This is also one of the few theories (I can think of) that explain Tobi's rediculous age.
- This would also explain how Tobi has a lot of rather apocraphal information that would otherwise be too esoteric for anyone else to know anything about.
- This could explain the statement in which Tobi refers to himself as "A shell of [his] former self." Since we know for a fact that the two Sons battled (Well according to Tobi anyway, though this actually seems true), it's possible the battle left him so heavily damaged that he became weakened. It would make sense that his own brother could do that level of damage to him.
- Also, If Tobi was the Senju Clan Ancestor, it would be a hell of a twist and change of allegiance. And we know how much Kishi likes those (Itachi, Sasuke, Nagato, Gaara, Konan, Zabuza, ect).
ISSUES WITH THIS THEORY,
Not many, but the biggest one is the question as to why the Senju Ancestor would have the motivation to do everything Tobi has done/claims he wants to do. My response to this is that, like stated above, if he truly is evil enough to warrant his older brother attacking him, maybe he's been evil all along, and has been planning the events that are taking place for some time.
UCHIHA ANCESTOR/SAGE'S ELDER SON THEORY
- There isn't much evidence supporting this son as Tobi's identity. Infact, the only real support for this claim is that the Elder Son would likely have a motive for the actions Tobi has done, at least according to Tobi's description of him. That as well as the Elder son is one of the few people who would has access to the information Tobi has.
- Also this would explain Tobi's "Shell of my former self" quote, because at the time when that was said, he had no rinnegan. Something the Elder bro was said to have, or at least some form of it.
- This might also explain why Tobi believes Nagato's rinnegan belongs to him, though he also may have been speaking from Madara's point of view at the time, a habit he kept up until quite recently. Though it could be argued that since Konan was near death, he is less likely to lie. To anyone who thinks that, keep in mind we are talking about Tobi here.
- There's a mild resemblence, (Tobi's hair during flashbacks).
MADARA CLONE/CREATION/Zetsu-type thing
- The strongest evidence for this theory remains the same as always. Tobi himself has stated, even in private, that he has the power of Uchiha Madara. He also told Konan that he was Uchiha Madara with the powers of Hashirama Senju when he knew she was as good as dead. Of course very little of what Tobi says can be confirmed as true, so this isn't really hard evidence. Though
this leads to the next piece of evidence.
- Multible important and wise characters, like Minato and Jiraiya believed Madara was somehow involved with the Akatsuki, even though he hadn't even met Tobi face to face. He simply figured that out on his own. This alone gives some credibility to the fact that he actually is Madara, or his creation or clone of some sort. There must be some reason behind these feelings or they wouldn't have been noted (hopefully).
- Muu's splitting ability was introduced just a chapter or so before Madara was shown to be resurrected with Edo Tensei. This couldd be foreshadowing.
Another thought on the “split theory” is that Edo Madara thought Nagato revived him before he realized what is going on. Tobi mentioned wanting Nagato to do just that for himself. Again, he was likely speaking from Madara's point of view, but still the fact that he even knew Madara's plans concerning Rinne Tensei simply proves that he was involved with Madara closely.
Problems with this theory:
- We've already seen the majority of Tobi's face, and there dosesn't seem to have any hideous deformity indicating him being a Zetsu clone, or even a resemblance to Madara or any other tell tale sign of this scenario. Not to say this theory is out the window or anything, but that is worth noting.
- Edo Madara seems to believe what Kabuto told him through Muu, which is basically that Tobi isn't entirely trustworthy. It seems strange that Madara wouldn't trust his own creation.
Obito
- This would explain virtually nothing and leave more questions than answers.
- Anyone who honestly thinks this is mentally retarded. That being said, if this was the case, Kishi isn't much better.
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SasukeFreak12
Member
edo tensai wilmaso
Active member
Hmmm is Tobi even a uchiha? Isn't stated several times trough out the manga since part one that uchiha can't have their sharing an active 24/7 because it is constantly using up chakra , so why is this being overlooked also Tobi said you needed senju DNA to use izinagi , when in reality you don't ...only a non uchiha can say that. So Izuna and kagami theories are a no fly zone for me. I personally have grown tired of tryna figure this guy out so I'll just let Kishi do it. But Tobi is not a uchiha simple and plain.
Also the fact that he uses some form of kamui is just a testament that he's not a uchiha for all uchiha have the same eye techs we have not even seen Tobi use gengetsu for crying out loud uchiha pride themselves on that. The fact that Kakashi uses kamui means to me that if your not a uchiha ...Anyone that is not a uchiha and gain the sharing can use kamui as seen in Tobi and Kakashi.
Also the fact that he uses some form of kamui is just a testament that he's not a uchiha for all uchiha have the same eye techs we have not even seen Tobi use gengetsu for crying out loud uchiha pride themselves on that. The fact that Kakashi uses kamui means to me that if your not a uchiha ...Anyone that is not a uchiha and gain the sharing can use kamui as seen in Tobi and Kakashi.
Sterling Malory Archer
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You do know Kakashi wasn't born with a Sharingan right? And that it was indeed implanted from an UCHIHA...(Obito)
edo tensai wilmaso
Active member
Yes sir I am aware of that fact , you obviously don't know the English language I said gained in the context meaning got , so Kakashi doesnt have a sharingan? Plez if you gonna argue or make a dimwitted reply to my post make it challenging please.
Anyway Kakashi ms tech move is kamui , yet we never seen that done by any other uchiha in the manga period. This makes me believe that if you get a sharingan / whether you steal it or someone gives it to you .....that ms tech kamui would be something that comes along with the eye. Also you overlooked something more important anyways .....# getatme
I has to add something what made you think I thought Kakashi is a uchiha? Really like what's so hard to understand that I was making a comparison Tobi/Kakashi cuz they are not uchiha ...wow your clueless.
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I still say it's Kagami
Here comes some speculation:
Kagami learned much from Madara, not vice versa.
He experienced war personally first time during the very first shinobi world war while he was still with Konoha
He personally knew Sarutobi and Danzo which makes sense
After this he became involved with Madara. I don't know how this will happen, but Kagami is drawn to Madara and possibly being inspired by him and becoming his pupil. Also was thinking what if Tobi is madara's son or something?
And, I believe Obito was the son of Kagami. Obito has the same Sharingan which could be inherited from his father and it could explain why Tobi wants to end wars and shape the world his way - he simply had enough of it and could see no end to it. He saw all great shinobi wars and even lost his son - this gives him the motivation for the Moon eye plan.
Another reason to why Tobi knew Madara well is Zetsu. Zetsu was created by Hashirama's DNA which Madara had gathered and we know Zetsu is like Tobi's only friend which says Tobi must have known him for a long time since he is able to trust him completely which is something someone like Tobi doesn't do just like that if you know what I mean. I think with the creation of black Zetsu, Rinnegan is gonna be involved because Black Zetsu feels like a creation created through creation of all things. He doesn't really look alive the same way white zetsu does but more like a supernatural being, like a bijuu. It's hard to speculate about Zetsu's origins though but I think Madara did in fact create him or at least one of his two parts and I'm gonna leave it there.
Kagami was missing from the group when Tobi invaded with kyuubi aswell.
Kyuubi recognized Tobi as Madara. This may be due to his similar chakra. Perhaps this also points at Kagami being his son, having a similar physical aura.
That's about it I think. There's still some things to think about like how Nagato fits in the puzzle, Tobi possibly being a member of ANBU, Tobi's manipulation of the mizukage, etc
Only one other than Kagami I could see being Tobi is Izuna but I think it would be a bit too obvious
Here comes some speculation:
Kagami learned much from Madara, not vice versa.
He experienced war personally first time during the very first shinobi world war while he was still with Konoha
He personally knew Sarutobi and Danzo which makes sense
After this he became involved with Madara. I don't know how this will happen, but Kagami is drawn to Madara and possibly being inspired by him and becoming his pupil. Also was thinking what if Tobi is madara's son or something?
And, I believe Obito was the son of Kagami. Obito has the same Sharingan which could be inherited from his father and it could explain why Tobi wants to end wars and shape the world his way - he simply had enough of it and could see no end to it. He saw all great shinobi wars and even lost his son - this gives him the motivation for the Moon eye plan.
Another reason to why Tobi knew Madara well is Zetsu. Zetsu was created by Hashirama's DNA which Madara had gathered and we know Zetsu is like Tobi's only friend which says Tobi must have known him for a long time since he is able to trust him completely which is something someone like Tobi doesn't do just like that if you know what I mean. I think with the creation of black Zetsu, Rinnegan is gonna be involved because Black Zetsu feels like a creation created through creation of all things. He doesn't really look alive the same way white zetsu does but more like a supernatural being, like a bijuu. It's hard to speculate about Zetsu's origins though but I think Madara did in fact create him or at least one of his two parts and I'm gonna leave it there.
Kagami was missing from the group when Tobi invaded with kyuubi aswell.
Kyuubi recognized Tobi as Madara. This may be due to his similar chakra. Perhaps this also points at Kagami being his son, having a similar physical aura.
That's about it I think. There's still some things to think about like how Nagato fits in the puzzle, Tobi possibly being a member of ANBU, Tobi's manipulation of the mizukage, etc
Only one other than Kagami I could see being Tobi is Izuna but I think it would be a bit too obvious
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LeafSpirit 20
Active member
I now im positive about who tobi is.. It has to be obito.. Why? In these later chapters, why did kakashi end up in the very same fight against tobi(for some emotional parts when they discover his real identity..) And if im not mistaken, in the past chapter before this new one, he told kakashi that he still talks too much and hasnt learn to keep his mouth shut.. I mean, it CANT be clearer than that..
Sterling Malory Archer
Active member
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You insult my english but look at this
The main reason Kakashi's MS technique differs from everybody else, is because he has only one Sharingan with MS.
Keyword = BOTH EYES.
The word "Both" refers to 2. Just letting you know
anyways...It is just your theory that Tobi isn't an Uchiha. Not a fact:sy:
I still say it's Uchiha Kagami
Ok I didn't really go through all these; but i guess this has never been suggested. Let's not forget how the Raikage had often prided himself upon saying they have nobody affiliated with the Akatsuki. Thus bringing me to a conclusion that Tobi can be from Kumogakure(perhaps Motoi's father? Very improbable but yeah somebody from Kumo) Now, another thing being off all the villages that have been given a coverage we haven't seen Village Hidden In The Grass; another place i am unsure about(Ame didn't really get anything big until Pein, note that some of the antagonists in Chuunin exams were from Ame; and we get to see another important person from it. Maybe Hidden Grass will get something too? )
sageadvice
Member
I disagree. We know that Setsuna was the leader of a failed Uchiha rebellion sometime before the 9-Tailed Attack on Konoha. That's pretty freakin' relevant.
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