Final (We hope) Countdown. Tobi ID theories and discsussions

[Edge]

Izuna doesn't have a motive to hate Konoha? You guys sure don't read properly ... Senju were responsible for his blindness and death.

Yup, and Obito theorists really shouldn't be questioning Izuna's motives...*COUGH*

 

[onimusha madara]

Criteria For Tobi’s Identity

1) He is from the time of Hashirama Senju, and needs to be someone the Kyuubi would instantly recognize.

He is instantly recognized by the Kyuubi, who as far as we know has been sealed away in an Uzumaki jinchuuriki ever since the battle at the Valley of the End, where Uzumaki Mito sealed it into herself. There are no reports of the Kyuubi having broken free aside from in Yondaime’s time. This means that Tobi is someone the Kyuubi met during the time of Hashirama.

Given the way in which he speaks of past events, he has first-hand knowledge of and was emotionally investment in the Uchiha/Senju conflict.

Izuna fits: Uchiha Izuna was from this time period, and for obvious reasons, was personally and emotionally invested in fighting the Senju.

2) He has to have a credible reason for being pissed off at the Uchiha’s making peace with the Senju, and needs to be personally, emotionally invested in Uchiha Izuna’s eyes being given to Uchiha Madara.

“What kind of monster would hurt his beloved younger brother?! All I ever wanted was to protect the Uchiha clan! […] My younger brother accepted his role and willingly gave his eyes to me….[Tobi clenches his arms in anger]. What happened to the hatred we had for them?! What did my brother sacrifice his eyes for?!”

Izuna fits: He has ample reason to be pissed off at the Uchiha, even more so than Uchiha Madara; he sacrificed his eyes and possibly his life to give Madara the EMS in order to protect the Uchiha in their fight against the Senju, only to have them go and make peace? Why did he sacrifice his eyes and his life for them, then?!

3) He has a credible reason for claiming that the eyes Nagato had “were [his] to begin with.”

Izuna fits: If we accept the likelihood that Nagato’s eyes used to be Uchiha Madara’s (who is the only person we know which awakened the Rinnegan), then we also accept that Nagato’s eyes originally belonged to Uchiha Izuna’s, as we know that Uchiha Madara’s EMS eyes originally belonged to Izuna. Izuna fits this perfectly; no one else has a better credible reason to claim Nagato’s eyes “were his to begin with” than Izuna.

4) He needs to be a person whom Uchiha Madara will trust with his own life and rebirth.

Madara trusted Tobi to bring him back to life with Nagato’s powers. This is a major deal. Who would the great Uchiha Madara trust with his own life?

If we accept Madara’s statement that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly before his death, then this also means that he had only a very short period of time to transplant the Rinnegan into child Nagato. This means that he was 100%, utterly dependent on Tobi to carry out the ‘plan’ he mentioned to Kabuto, which included his resurrection.

Madara also gave Tobi access to the Hashirama-related power which he had nearly died for; an incredible show of trust.

Izuna fits: He is Uchiha Madara’s younger brother, and brotherly ties are a major focal point of this manga. We know that Rinnei Tensei can bring the dead back to life, and we know that Uchiha Madara gained the Rinnegan before dying. It would make sense if he used the Rinnegan to bring back Izuna.

Counter-Argument: Nagato wasn’t able to bring back Jiraiya because he had died too long ago! How could Madara bring back Izuna, who had died even longer ago!

Response: Uchiha Madara planned to use Nagato to bring himself back to life. If we accept that Madara died while Nagato was a child (which is necessary, as Nagato was given the Rinnegan as a child), and that Nagato was expected to ‘grow’ into his power, then this shows Madara thought it was fully possible for Nagato to resurrect him, despite years having passed. Which indicates that it is also fully possible for Madara to resurrect Izuna, despite years having passed.

5) He needs to have a credible grudge against Konoha, and has to have waited a long time for his vengeance against Konoha.
Spoken to Kushina: “Do you have any idea how long I’ve waited for this moment?!”

Izuna fits: His reason for a grudge against Konoha are obvious and profound; he gave his eyes to fight against the Senju who controlled the village, then eventually expelled his brother out from it. If we accept that he died or was maimed back in Hashirama’s days, then he has been waiting a long, long time indeed for his vengeance.

6) Tobi needs to be an Uchiha.

Although not Madara, Tobi still needs to have an Uchiha’s body; he uses the sharingan with expertise not seen outside a native Uchiha, and does not appear to have any problems with his body not being suited for the sharingan.

Izuna fits: Self-explanatory.

7) Tobi has to have a credible reason for being at least partly made out of Zetsu goo, even as far back as the fight with Yondaime.

Izuna somewhat fits: Tobi claims that Uchiha Izuna died in battle after losing his eyes. Knowing that Rinnei Tensi is capable of bringing the dead back, and also knowing that Zetsu goo is based off of Hashirama’s DNA, it’s credible that for Madara to bring Izuna back, he had to use Zetsu goo for whatever reason. Admittedly, more data is required here.

8) He has an old, wrinkly face, despite being partially made out of Zetsu goo.

Izuna fits: If we accept that Izuna was brought back to life with the Rinnegan while Nagato was a child, then at least 30+ years have passed, as we know that Nagato (being Jiraiya’s first disciple) should be as old or older than Minato. If Izuna was brought back in a partially ‘real’ body which aged, and if he had died in his 20’s, then he would now be in his 50’s or 60’s, explaining the wrinkly face. This is also supported by the fact that he indicates if Itachi knew some of his secrets, the Amaterasu would have killed him, indicating that at least part of him was non-Zetsu goo and thus vulnerable to being killed.

i like your logic dont forget in the fight with konan tobi said why did you have nagato use rinne rebirth i needed that for my mown reasons if u dont believe me

Spoiler

You must be registered for see links

srry for using the anime but start at 5:00 and listen and read what tobi said for his sake ohk

 

[onimusha madara]

lol... me tooxd

so we are all for the ramen guy right?

 

[vUmbrav]

No ... Izuna gave his eyes to Madara so he could fight and crush the Senju.
Izuna died fighting on a battlefield blind.

The clan didn't come to peace with Senju, they were just tired of fighting and oppressed Madara because they thought he took Izuna's eyes by force and wanted nothing but power. The clan forced Madara to sign a truce with Senju, rendering Izuna's sacrifice meaningless, spitting on his grave.

Exactly, because Madara took his eyes, taken eyes= death, same logic.

Meaningless sacrifice? I don't see that as motive especially if he gave up his eyes willingly. Obviously his own feelings on the situation did not matter, only the greater good. Ninja's die all the time in battle, it would be silly to think that one ninja "dying in vain" would fuel an immense hatred for the leaf. Besides, if Izuna willingly gave up his eyes he was humble enough to do so. Now all of sudden when it doesn't pan out he takes the exact opposite stance? A stance of bitterness and since of betrayal? That psychology does not make sense. If there's anyone he should be bitter against, it's Madara but he wasn't (so Tobi says).

Another thing that I just thought of. Tobi did not know that Kabuto had Madara as an Edo (if i remember correctly), then that means that Madara and Tobi could not have had long term plans because Madara was never meant to be revived by ET right? But Tobi also said that Nagato's Rinnei Tensei was meant for him as well (while still masquerading as Madara). Either somewhere Tobi's plans were messed up by Kabuto or Madara was never a part of the equation of Tsuki no me.

 

[Bokie469]

Hello. I'm quite new to this but only thing really that's got my attention, or (in a matter of speaking had gotten me startled), was that I had been reading back into the manga *Chapter 487* to be precise, and I stumbled onto this quote between Kakashi, and Tobi.

Kakashi: "I'm taking out Madara before this goes any further!" *Kamui!*
Tobi: Don't bother Kakashi. Techniques like that don't have any effect on me.

My only question is that why do you think Tobi would say that towards Kakashi, and what does he mean "Kamui would not affect him?" That's very "fishy" in my opinion which leads me onto suspicion. During the part in Chapter 594 Tobi talks to Kakashi and Guy as if he knew them? The only problem is that I don't know who this'll be? Who do you guy's think Tobi might be after receiving this evidence, or to what type's of theories would this help support or fall into? Would really appreciate the responses to this. Thanks a lot! *also I couldn't post the link to the page as I haven't made a total of 10 posts.* . PM me if you guys want a link to my information. Thanks a lot :3

 

[Biscoe Uzumaki]

I pretty sure Shisui is Tobi. On chapter 590 page 5 and 11a check the height difference on Tobi and Shisui. He might have found Obitos eye after givin his last to Itachi. But who knows.

 

[Sterling Malory Archer]

I say Uchiha Kagami. He would've known Kakashi and Gai because He was one of the Konoha Elders.

 

[Qmaster]

I think he's Obito.

 

[AWSUM SID]

Tobi is Izuna.

Izuna is the ONLY one who was equal to Madara.
Izuna lost his eyes/gave his eyes to Madara BUT Tobi transplanted dead Itachi's eyes into Sasuke and dead Nagato's eyes into himself. Whats to say he couldn't have faked his death and a transplanted a dead Uchiha's eye. Besides Tobi/fake Madara is telling the story of Izuna, whos to say he isn't lying about Izunas death?
Izuna is one of the ONLY logical choices left. Izuna is the ONLY person who could have any kind of knowledge regarding any of the past, he is the ONLY one who can stand a chance against the 4th Hokage, he is the ONLY one who would know about the secrets behind the Uchihas and the Rinnegan. He is the ONLY one who has or had the ability to control the 9 tails when he fought against the 4th Hokage. (Remember Izuna is the ONLY one who is equal to Madara)

The ONLY question for the theory is HOW is he able to still be alive. He could have found a way to transfer himself to another body (aka what Orochimaru did) and how often does he need to do this. Back when he fought the 4th Hokage he looked different/was hooded. When he met Itachi he had long hair. Now he has short hair.

I think these are different bodies that he is using. When he fought the 4th and met Itachi, who knows what bodies he was in but now I think he is using Obitos body and using Zetsu's parts to complete the crushed half with the 1st Hokages DNA. How else would he be able to use Izanagi? He needs to have Uchiha and Senju DNA. We know the White Zetsu clones have the 1st Hokages DNA because they captured Yamato and have what looks like a clone of the first (cloned through his DNA). Now Tobi/what I think is Obitos body, is already an Uchiha and mixed with the Zetsu clone/1st Hokage DNA = Izanagi.

Tobi and Orochimaru might have worked together before and Orochimaru may have learned how to body switch from Tobi.

 

[NarutoKage2]

guys izuna is almost def not tobi. latest chapter suggests its sum 1 kakashi and guy knw by face,

 

[vUmbrav]

Tobi is Izuna.

Izuna is the ONLY one who was equal to Madara.
Izuna lost his eyes/gave his eyes to Madara BUT Tobi transplanted dead Itachi's eyes into Sasuke and dead Nagato's eyes into himself. Whats to say he couldn't have faked his death and a transplanted a dead Uchiha's eye. Besides Tobi/fake Madara is telling the story of Izuna, whos to say he isn't lying about Izunas death?
Izuna is one of the ONLY logical choices left. Izuna is the ONLY person who could have any kind of knowledge regarding any of the past, he is the ONLY one who can stand a chance against the 4th Hokage, he is the ONLY one who would know about the secrets behind the Uchihas and the Rinnegan. He is the ONLY one who has or had the ability to control the 9 tails when he fought against the 4th Hokage. (Remember Izuna is the ONLY one who is equal to Madara)

The ONLY question for the theory is HOW is he able to still be alive. He could have found a way to transfer himself to another body (aka what Orochimaru did) and how often does he need to do this. Back when he fought the 4th Hokage he looked different/was hooded. When he met Itachi he had long hair. Now he has short hair.

I think these are different bodies that he is using. When he fought the 4th and met Itachi, who knows what bodies he was in but now I think he is using Obitos body and using Zetsu's parts to complete the crushed half with the 1st Hokages DNA. How else would he be able to use Izanagi? He needs to have Uchiha and Senju DNA. We know the White Zetsu clones have the 1st Hokages DNA because they captured Yamato and have what looks like a clone of the first (cloned through his DNA). Now Tobi/what I think is Obitos body, is already an Uchiha and mixed with the Zetsu clone/1st Hokage DNA = Izanagi.

Tobi and Orochimaru might have worked together before and Orochimaru may have learned how to body switch from Tobi.

"Whats to say he couldn't have faked his death and a transplanted a dead Uchiha's eye."

What's to say the world doesn't end tomorrow? Both could be true but at the same time it's just baseless speculation.

For Bold portion: Haha, so because Izuna is equal to Madara he is the ONLY person who can do these things? Fail logic is fail. You don't know any of that. There's no reason to believe that what you just said is exclusive to one person. You're basically saying because Madara could theoretically do it, Izuna can. That's a fallacy in logic. Especially considering Tobi has gone out of his way to make people believe he is Madara when he clearly is not. Even Kagami can fit everything you just said. And how would Izuna know as much as Tobi has shown to know? Izuna is almost as old as Madara so how does he know about the jyuubi, so6p, senju etc. Madara and Izuna are descendants just like the other people in the theory. They were not there when this began, so really anyone could know that information. People are making the mistake in thinking the only way he could know all this stuff is if he was there.

Besides what does Izuna know about the modern leaf? Madara sure doesn't know anything beyond his time.

Also body switching? It's stretch after stretch in these ridiculous theories.

 

[TheLegendarySage]

Also one thing people tend to forget is the fact Kurama knows tobi by his chakra (from the time he released the 9-tails) and not his face. He felt his chakra before.
If he would have known his unmasked identity it seems only logical he would have told naruto or anyone else about it since his "Madara" impersonation failed!
And since he hasn't felt the same chakra around anyother person he had encountered so far, it seems to me that tobi is just plain tobi (or still in some way Madara [i dont know how, anime is not always logical] )

 

[Sasuke2]

Exactly, because Madara took his eyes, taken eyes= death, same logic.

Meaningless sacrifice? I don't see that as motive especially if he gave up his eyes willingly. Obviously his own feelings on the situation did not matter, only the greater good. Ninja's die all the time in battle, it would be silly to think that one ninja "dying in vain" would fuel an immense hatred for the leaf. Besides, if Izuna willingly gave up his eyes he was humble enough to do so. Now all of sudden when it doesn't pan out he takes the exact opposite stance? A stance of bitterness and since of betrayal? That psychology does not make sense. If there's anyone he should be bitter against, it's Madara but he wasn't (so Tobi says).
No, you misunderstood. Izuna had to sacrifice his eyes for Madara so the latter could crush Senju, only to being forced to make a truce with them right after, thus Izuna becoming blind and died = pointless
Another thing that I just thought of. Tobi did not know that Kabuto had Madara as an Edo (if i remember correctly), then that means that Madara and Tobi could not have had long term plans because Madara was never meant to be revived by ET right? But Tobi also said that Nagato's Rinnei Tensei was meant for him as well (while still masquerading as Madara). Either somewhere Tobi's plans were messed up by Kabuto or Madara was never a part of the equation of Tsuki no me.

guys izuna is almost def not tobi. latest chapter suggests its sum 1 kakashi and guy knw by face,

ugh ... that's not what the chapter and dialogue has suggested at all.
use brain, Tobi has intel on everyone, had Zetsu as a spy and met Kakashi before.

 

[kent0005]

I also feel like their is connection with tobi right eye to obito. Last few chapters was hinting about obito connection to tobi. Tobi probably found obito dead and took his sharingan and his body too. As it is known for people like danzo who has shisui eye and body parts(shoulder). Probably Tobi did the same too using portion of obitos body so thats why one of his side is not shown in the manga because it is obito's. Tobi looked alot taller in the past and had different appearance one of the reason why i spectulated this.

Izuna seems to be most logical canditate for tobi but i am not 100% certain, because how did he survive or how did madara revive him after so long? Then if tobi isnt izuna, I guess tobi really is nobody, he is just a creation, made up of zetsu material with Uchiha mind and body.

 

[Eishi]

Tobi is Frankenstein end of story U_U

 

[Sasuke2]

Jesus ... Obito was a fodder used as a plot device and is now lying under boulders, he has NOTHING to do with any events after Kakashi's gaiden.

 

[alexu9696]

Jesus ... Obito was a fodder used as a plot device and is now lying under boulders, he has NOTHING to do with any events after Kakashi's gaiden.

they just are so ..... :sy: i am so sick with the obito theory god damit :sy:

 

[AWSUM SID]

"Whats to say he couldn't have faked his death and a transplanted a dead Uchiha's eye."

What's to say the world doesn't end tomorrow? Both could be true but at the same time it's just baseless speculation.

For Bold portion: Haha, so because Izuna is equal to Madara he is the ONLY person who can do these things? Fail logic is fail. You don't know any of that. There's no reason to believe that what you just said is exclusive to one person. You're basically saying because Madara could theoretically do it, Izuna can. That's a fallacy in logic. Especially considering Tobi has gone out of his way to make people believe he is Madara when he clearly is not. Even Kagami can fit everything you just said. And how would Izuna know as much as Tobi has shown to know? Izuna is almost as old as Madara so how does he know about the jyuubi, so6p, senju etc. Madara and Izuna are descendants just like the other people in the theory. They were not there when this began, so really anyone could know that information. People are making the mistake in thinking the only way he could know all this stuff is if he was there.

Besides what does Izuna know about the modern leaf? Madara sure doesn't know anything beyond his time.

Also body switching? It's stretch after stretch in these ridiculous theories.

lol... its a friggin theory j*ckass... you talk as if the fate of the world depends on what i wrote.

 

[ShenLong Kazama]

I still think that Tobi is Shisui, he was well known in Konoha, and somehow Shisui was seen in a flashback where Sasuke realized Madara was still around.

 

[Sterling Malory Archer]

I still think that Tobi is Shisui, he was well known in Konoha, and somehow Shisui was seen in a flashback where Sasuke realized Madara was still around.

I highly doubt that. Shisui was a warm-hearted fellow. Doesn't seem the type.

My Vote is still Kagami