Final (We hope) Countdown. Tobi ID theories and discsussions

[vUmbrav]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

There's nothing in the timeline to specifically contradict Tobi being Obito.

Seems I need to repost this list:

In light of the recent thread about failed information on Tobi not being Obito I have created a list of facts that COMPLETELY disprove the theory that Tobi could be Obito. I have also made a list that suggest the information is inconsistent with Obito being Tobi, but still don't completely disprove. I will add more as more information is revealed. Also post other facts that I may have missed and I will add them to the list.


Undeniable Facts
1. Tobi has been revealed to be an old man. Obito is Kakashi's age. Kakashi is not an old man. Therefore Obito is not an old man. So Obito cannot be Tobi.

2. Tobi fought with the fourth Hokage Minato just a few years after Obito supposedly died during Kyuubi attack. Obito was still a child during that part of history while Tobi was an adult, this also goes hand in hand with #1.

3. Tobi claims to have given the Rinnegan to Nagato as a child and that it was originally "his" (referring to Tobi). Nagato was born many years before Obito was born. So Obito could not have given Nagato the Rinnegan.

4. Tobi "spurred" Yahiko to start Akatsuki. Yahiko was alive years before Obito was born, this goes hand in hand with #3

Facts that don't Completely Disprove the Theory
1. Obito was crushed by a rock and presumed dead, so Obito cannot be Tobi.

2. Obito had just awakened his Sharingan and was still in the process of training to become a great ninja yet he was able to go toe-to-toe with his own sensei Minato in only a couple of years.

3. Tobi controlled the Kyuubi with his Sharingan. Tobi also knew about the requirements necessary to release a Bijuu from its host, including when is the best time to do so. Obito could not have obtained all of this information in such a short time. Especially considering his Sharingan eye was crushed and the other one gone, so he could not have read the Uchiha tablet.

4. Tobi controlled the fourth Mizukage Yagura through genjutsu. This is an inconsistency with timeline and talent.

Now reassess your thoughts on Tobi being Obito. Like I said it would be fine if Kishi found a way around all these inconsistent facts. Keep in mind there is NO speculation involved here just a list of facts.

 

[HokageTobiramaXx]

Gonna laugh if any of my "theories" are true...

Tobi actually being a senju (there were probably good senju and bad senju just as there were good Uchiha and Bad Uchiha)

Tobi being Madara/Sasuke from the future/past.

 

[lorul2]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

Seems I need to repost this list:

In light of the recent thread about failed information on Tobi not being Obito I have created a list of facts that COMPLETELY disprove the theory that Tobi could be Obito. I have also made a list that suggest the information is inconsistent with Obito being Tobi, but still don't completely disprove. I will add more as more information is revealed. Also post other facts that I may have missed and I will add them to the list.


Undeniable Facts
1. Tobi has been revealed to be an old man. Obito is Kakashi's age. Kakashi is not an old man. Therefore Obito is not an old man. So Obito cannot be Tobi.

2. Tobi fought with the fourth Hokage Minato just a few years after Obito supposedly died during Kyuubi attack. Obito was still a child during that part of history while Tobi was an adult, this also goes hand in hand with #1.

3. Tobi claims to have given the Rinnegan to Nagato as a child and that it was originally "his" (referring to Tobi). Nagato was born many years before Obito was born. So Obito could not have given Nagato the Rinnegan.

4. Tobi "spurred" Yahiko to start Akatsuki. Yahiko was alive years before Obito was born, this goes hand in hand with #3

Facts that don't Completely Disprove the Theory
1. Obito was crushed by a rock and presumed dead, so Obito cannot be Tobi.

2. Obito had just awakened his Sharingan and was still in the process of training to become a great ninja yet he was able to go toe-to-toe with his own sensei Minato in only a couple of years.

3. Tobi controlled the Kyuubi with his Sharingan. Tobi also knew about the requirements necessary to release a Bijuu from its host, including when is the best time to do so. Obito could not have obtained all of this information in such a short time. Especially considering his Sharingan eye was crushed and the other one gone, so he could not have read the Uchiha tablet.

4. Tobi controlled the fourth Mizukage Yagura through genjutsu. This is an inconsistency with timeline and talent.

Now reassess your thoughts on Tobi being Obito. Like I said it would be fine if Kishi found a way around all these inconsistent facts. Keep in mind there is NO speculation involved here just a list of facts.

I was going to just post to the thread where i answered all this before, but I'll just post it again.


Undeniable Wrong!!

1. Where is it a fact that Tobi is old? When you see his partly saggy face? Which could be due to Zetsu replacement parts? Because he knows the Moon eye plan? Again possibly given the "plan" info by Zetsu. Or is it because Madra said "This is his doing", again he didn't say Tobi he said "his doing" once again possibly refering to Zetsu...
Your Point 1 WRONG!

2. Obito would be a TEENAGER when he fought Minato. Naruto was a teenager when he fought PAIN...How can you tell how old someone is when all of their body parts are completly covered?:shrug:
Your Point 2 WRONG!

3. Unless the Bolder that fell on Obito was a rectangular flat piece of stone how can you prove the right side of his head got crushed? Is it possible to talk if half of your head is crushed?!:flaw: SO his right eye could have survived. As stated before Zetsu could have told him Madara's plan or he read it with 1 good sharingan, his right one.
Your Point 3 WRONG!

4. How do you know how someone can progress with their talent? :sy: There was probably a 2 to 3 year gap between Obito's death. Again, how much did Naruto grow talent wise or Sasuke?
Your Point 4 WRONG!

Now reassess your thoughts on Tobi being Obito. Like I said it would be fine if Kishi found a way around all these inconsistent facts. Keep in mind there is NO speculation involved here just a list of facts.

I have yet to read one provable fact, and with every point you mentioned I listed reasonable doubt. Get over yourself. If it's not Obito, that's OK but none of your "FACTS" is Undeniable!!

 

[HokageTobiramaXx]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

I was going to just post to the thread where i answered all this before, but I'll just post it again.


Undeniable Wrong!!

1. Where is it a fact that Tobi is old? When you see his partly saggy face? Which could be due to Zetsu replacement parts? Because he knows the Moon eye plan? Again possibly given the "plan" info by Zetsu. Or is it because Madra said "This is his doing", again he didn't say Tobi he said "his doing" once again possibly refering to Zetsu...
Your Point 1 WRONG!

2. Obito would be a TEENAGER when he fought Minato. Naruto was a teenager when he fought PAIN...How can you tell how old someone is when all of their body parts are completly covered?:shrug:
Your Point 2 WRONG!

3. Unless the Bolder that fell on Obito was a rectangular flat piece of stone how can you prove the right side of his head got crushed? Is it possible to talk if half of your head is crushed?!:flaw: SO his right eye could have survived. As stated before Zetsu could have told him Madara's plan or he read it with 1 good sharingan, his right one.
Your Point 3 WRONG!

4. How do you know how someone can progress with their talent? :sy: There was probably a 2 to 3 year gap between Obito's death. Again, how much did Naruto grow talent wise?
Your Point 4 WRONG!



I have yet to read one provable fact, and with every point you mentioned I listed reasonable doubt. Get over yourself. If it's not Obito, that's OK but none of your "FACTS" is Undeniable!!

1. Tobi is obviously old.. if he wasn't he would know nothing, and his face wouldnt have 40 wrinkles on it... He has shared knowledge with madara. He is old.

2. Tobi's voice doesn't sound like a teenager.

3. If the Boulder wasn't flat enough he would be able to move after getting stuck under it.

4. It COULD be obito, but highly improbable that it is. Given major facts and timeline constraints as well as timeline impossibilities suggests it can't be Obito. Other facts is Obito was a good hearted person, and tought kakashi his way of the Shinobi, don't forget that.

At this point in time, It's still a possibility that he's Obito, but due to nature of the character and goals in life as well as timeline impossibiliites, it's highly unlikely to be obito. However, this doesn't mean- like I said earlier- that tobi can't be using Obito's Sharingan...too add to that, I doubt kishi would make someone with such an insignificant role in the whole narutoverse be one of the biggest villains ever...

 

[Ldude]

I have a couple ridiculous theories of my own, so please hear me out:

At first Tobi was goofy and silly, but he suddenly went through a personality change. I have come up with 3 possible explanations for this:

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1. Multiple personality disorder.
2. He really was a serious character, but pretended to be a goofball to mask his identity. He probably wanted to avoid suspicion and draw away from the idea that he could possibly be controlling the Akatsuki. The other members (excluding Nagato, Konan, and Zetsu) were not supposed to know about his plan. The Akatsuki members would probably not want to be controlled by his infinite tsukuyomi as a projection of his own path to peace.
3. Goofy Tobi and Serious Tobi are 2 different people. This backs up why his voice changed.

For theory #2, I have some evidence that Tobi must match up with:


1. When Konan cracked Tobi's mask, some of his wrinkles were revealed. He must be an older character. This evidence mainly disproves the "Tobi = Obito" theory.

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2. In accordance with evidence #1, Tobi was a full grown adult during the time of the Kyubi attack 16 years before the start of Shippuden. During that time, Kakashi was still a kid. (Hint: Kakashi's fellow classmates were also kids.)

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3.

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Tobi must know who Kakashi and Guy are. He might have come from Konoha.

4.

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He convinced Yahiko to begin Akatsuki, and....

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He gave the rinnegan to Nagato. Nagato had the rinnegan as far back as when he was a kid. We know this because he used it to kill the 2 Konoha nin that killed his parents. Because Nagato spent his childhood in the Hidden Rain and because Tobi must have come into contact with Nagato to give him the rinnegan, Tobi must have had access to go during/before a war between the major villages to the Hidden Rain to do so.

5.

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Tobi may be suggesting that he is an Uchiha. If he were an Uchiha, he would have needed to have come from Konoha. This also gives support to the fact that he knew Kakashi and Guy.

6.

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He knew who the original members of Akatsuki were. He might have been among them, or he could have gone to the Hidden Rain when Hanzo was there.

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All of the above is primarily directed towards his identity- clan? origin? age? affiliation? Here's a refresher of what was stated above:

Clan: Uchiha- this explains how he knew so much about Madara, Itachi, and the clan.
Origin: Konoha or Hidden Rain
Age: 16 + (however old he was during his fight with Minato). I'd assume based on those wrinkles that he's 50+ (That's how old Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru are.)
Affiliation: Akatsuki (including the earlier one before it became a group for rogue nin), knows Kakashi and Guy

Now, if he were part of the Uchiha clan and came from Konoha, what could his motivation be to destroy it? Possibilities:

1. The Uchiha Massacre occurred AFTER his fight with Minato, so there must be another reason.
2. Obito's death- He might be Obito's father.
3. He was assisting Madara, who turned against the village after his fight with Hashirama and the lack of support from the Uchiha. Question that arises: What motivation could he possibly have to assist Madara? He might be Izuna. The tale of how Izuna died might have been to keep Tobi's identity secret.

May I just point out, Tobi is involved with a lot of people: Madara, Itachi, Nagato, Konan, Kakashi, Guy, everyone else in the Akatsuki.... I wonder how he made it around so much as to meet them all.\

So, here are the possibilities of who I think Tobi may be:
1. Kagami Uchiha
2. Izuna Uchiha
3. _____ Uchiha (Obito's dad)

Well, I have nothing conclusive to say, so do what you will with my evidence. :shrug:

Now time for my crazy ideas that have no backup evidence whatsoever. These are for fun and I will hide them, so read on if you don't want to laugh. :flaw: xd :shrug:

Spoiler

1. He's Minato. Minato made a deal with the Death Reaper dude and got sent back. In exchange for his soul, Minato gave up Orochimaru's soul arms. (You thought that was Hiruzen's work, but that was really Minato's deal.) Minato was angry because he died. He kept calm when he saw Naruto because he didn't want to reveal his plan. Tobi's brown hair is actually blonde.

Spoiler

2. Tayuya was tired of people underestimating her. She came back from the future with a *** change and vowed to control them all with her NEW genjutsu.

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3. Gamabunta. I'm not quite sure where this one came from. :sy:

Okay, that's enough for now. Opinions on my (serious) ideas would be much appreciated.

 

[vUmbrav]

@lorul2 You counter all my FACTS with fanfiction? And then go on to claim that it's "reasonable doubt" That would make sense if it wasn't made up or just baseless speculation. You have absolutely no PROOF whatsoever of how your claims could even be a possibility.

Btw, Tobi IS old, his face was wrinkled around his eyes when we saw his face. As a person gets older they lose their elasticity around all parts of their bodies and as a result the skin sags. You are yet another person being willfully ignorant just to latch on to your theory. You want to make up reasons to disprove facts but never weigh the factual information and draw a logical conclusion from it. The difference between my opinion and yours is that mine is derived from factual information, yours is just a hunch. That's why mine is much more likely to be true.

 

[lorul2]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

1. Tobi is obviously old.. if he wasn't he would know nothing, and his face wouldnt have 40 wrinkles on it... He has shared knowledge with madara. He is old.

Did you even read what I wrote to the other poster?

2. Tobi's voice doesn't sound like a teenager.

When did the Manga get sound? They can barely color the pages.

3. If the Boulder wasn't flat enough he would be able to move after getting stuck under it.

Are you serious?!? I'll drop a round 50 ton bolder on you and you move it..

4. It COULD be obito, but highly improbable that it is. Given major facts and timeline constraints as well as timeline impossibilities suggests it can't be Obito. Other facts is Obito was a good hearted person, and tought kakashi his way of the Shinobi, don't forget that.

I mentioned timeline earlier, not going into it again. Danzo wanted peace, Hanzo wanted peace; and both of those guys lived by a shinobi code..Your point?

At this point in time, It's still a possibility that he's Obito, but due to nature of the character and goals in life as well as timeline impossibiliites, it's highly unlikely to be obito. However, this doesn't mean- like I said earlier- that tobi can't be using Obito's Sharingan...too add to that, I doubt kishi would make someone with such an insignificant role in the whole narutoverse be one of the biggest villains ever...

Ok people in this forum has stated it was Madra's dead brother or The elder son of the 6 paths. Obito has been mentioned and described and animated more than any other Uchila not named Madara. I don't think Tobi could be anyone elso other than Obito. I guess next Manga(I hope) we will see who is right?

 

[SilverSlick]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

Because people stay the same height and weight for over 100 years.

Because having swirls in your eyes allows you to live thousands of years. They also make you wait to enact your plan for who knows how long and then meet some guy who's substantially weaker than you, and work UNDER him in a plan the two of you form.

That doesn't matter. Kishi will do what he wants with HIS manga. Regardless of what fans think. Kagami would be hammered even harder than Obito for the record.

Kishi will write his manga the way he wants to. If Tobi is Obito and you don't like it then too bad. Get over it and wait for the backstory before you get judgmental.

Obito had alot of development. Have you read Gaiden? Be rational if you want to debate with someone.

Obito has large amounts of development, whereas Kagami was shown in 2 panels. He has no development and it would be pointless for him to be Tobi.

ALL the Tobi theories are speculation. You'd think think that would be common sense. Every single theory is speculation until one of them is proven right.

Also, do you not realize that every bit of the Kagami theory is pure speculation based on no manga facts? he could have been anything people want. People say he could be this, he could be that, but so what? It's just a fan fic.

There's nothing in the timeline to specifically contradict Tobi being Obito.

Rational? You're telling me to be rational? Do you even know how irrational the Tobi is Obito theory is? Just for you, I'm going to debunk that theory right now.

Alright, lets start with the timeline. Since Kakashi is 30 now, he'd be exactly 14 years old during the attack on Konoha. This single fact alone, shits on any Obito theory.

When he died, at the age of 13, he was about 5'2, 95 lbs. I'm going to say the attack happened 2 years after he died, making him about 15 years old. Now since Kishimoto is from Japan, where people are generally smaller, I'd say Obito would be, at most 5'6, 115 lbs. This is obviously different than Tobi's height and weight which was 5'9, 123 lbs.

Now, Obito theorist will say that Madara is the one that gave Nagato the Rinnegan, influence Yahiko to form Akatsuki, and helped Itachi slaughter the clan. Well we know Madara died shortly after getting the Rinnegan. We also know that either Tobi or Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Well sorry to say, they both disprove the Obito theory if either one of them are correct. If its true that Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then Tobi was the one to influence Yahiko. Lets see

Nagato and Yahiko are the same age we can assume. Nagato, during shippuden, is 29-35 years old. How do we know this? The 2nd great shinobi war was about 30-35 years before the start of shippuden. We know that Nagato awakened the Rinnegan when he was about 5. At this time, Obito would be about, 0 years old. Yes, he gave Nagato the Rinnegan before even being concieved. Lets say Madara was the one that gave Nagato the Rinnegan. We know for sure, he died shortly before awakening and he knew of Nagato before dying. He was also expecting Nagato to revive him in the future. This means Tobi was the one to influence Yahiko to form Akatsuki. I'm going to say Yahiko was about 16-18 years old. Meaning around 18 years before the start of the series. Which means, Obito be around 10-12 years old. Are you telling me a 12 year old influenced Yahiko, an 18 year old to form Akatsuki.

We know for a fact that Tobi controlled Yagura. Madara would be dead by this time. Kisame was 32 years old when he died. He was about 18 years old when he met Tobi for the first time. This disproves that he met Madara because Madara had died some 20 years before Kisame met Tobi. Also, the bloody mist era starded a few years before Kisame even met Tobi. This would make Obito 11-15 years old during this time. You telling me a 11-15 year old kid controlled a perfect Jinchuriki for an extended period of time? We can also confirm it was Tobi since Kisame identified him it as him.

You see?

Let's talk about his personality. Obito was probably the kindest Uchiha that had ever existed. He taught Kakashi about friendship and how friends come before missions. When he died, the only regret he had was that he was no longer able to be with Rin and Kakashi. That was it. If he had survived, what would have changed him into a nihilist? What would make him into a miserable person? Tobi does not believe in concepts such as hope and friendship. Tobi is the exact opposite of Obito. Most of all, Obito carries the will of fire, which Tobi seems to lack.

I could go on for hours about how OP his abilities are. But I won't. Its obvious a 15 year kid can't control a perfect jinchuriki with something comparable to KA.

Alright here is the most important thing I'm going to say. Kishi would not make Tobi, Obito. Why? Because Tobi is not suppose to represent opposition to Kakashi as some believe. Hell, he is not even suppose to represent opposition to Naruto or the Leaf village. He represents opposition to the whole world basically. You see, this show isn't called Kakashi. Obito is a no longer relevant character that appeared in a few chapters of a side story.

 

[HokageTobiramaXx]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

Did you even read what I wrote to the other poster?
Ok people in this forum has stated it was Madra's dead brother or The elder son of the 6 paths. Obito has been mentioned and described and animated more than any other Uchila not named Madara. I don't think Tobi could be anyone elso other than Obito. I guess next Manga(I hope) we will see who is right?

Uchiha Sasuke and Uchiha Itachi have been around more...

Never said it couldn't be Obito, I just stated it, from my perceptive, is highly improbable.

Like I said in my proposition it could be a senju with evil intentions or Madara/Sasuke from the future/past..

Like you said though, we wont know till kishi wants us to know lol, I don't really see a point arguing or pointing fingers about it, since anything is possible...

But people have to stop saying "It's not XXXXX' or "It is XXXXX", like how in the world would they know? XD, It should sound something more like "I think it's XXXXX" or " I don't think it's XXXXX" because as to who tobi is, we can only speculate... unless someone other than Kishi here actually knows xd

 

[ThtOneGuy]

Re: Who is Tobi Debate. Who do you think he is? Intelligent theories only!!

Tobi is not Kagami. Why? He was a character who was shown in 1 chapter, and never even spoke a word. The ONLY reason people even make Tobi theories about this guy is because they know his name and he is an Uchiha. And then they come up with WONDERFUL fanfictions about how he got to be evil, his connection to Madara, and all of this crazy stuff. But the fact of the matter is that he is a character who has NEVER said a word, was NEVER spoken about by ANY ninja ever (no hype AT ALL), has NOT been developed or affected the plot AT ALL, and the only panels he's been in he has been sitting down. Honestly, Kagami being Tobi theories have started to get more annoying to me than Obito being Tobi theories, and that is REALLY hard to beat.

this times a million i couldnt agree more

 

[lorul2]

@lorul2 You counter all my FACTS with fanfiction? And then go on to claim that it's "reasonable doubt" That would make sense if it wasn't made up or just baseless speculation. You have absolutely no PROOF whatsoever of how your claims could even be a possibility.

Btw, Tobi IS old, his face was wrinkled around his eyes when we saw his face. As a person gets older they lose their elasticity around all parts of their bodies and as a result the skin sags. You are yet another person being willfully ignorant just to latch on to your theory. You want to make up reasons to disprove facts but never weigh the factual information and draw a logical conclusion from it. The difference between my opinion and yours is that mine is derived from factual information, yours is just a hunch. That's why mine is much more likely to be true.

You have yet to supply 1 FACT!

He looks old? Really?! That's what you got?

Tsunade looks 25 when she is really 50, but according to your "facts" she is really 25.

You want to make up reasons to disprove facts but never weigh the factual information and draw a logical conclusion from it.

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LOGICAL CONCLUSION!

 

[HokageTobiramaXx]

You have yet to supply 1 FACT!

He looks old? Really?! That's what you got?

Tsunade looks 25 when she is really 50, but according to your "facts" she is really 25.

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LOGICAL CONCLUSION!

And reasons for Obito trying to destroy the world would be? xd

 

[lorul2]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

Uchiha Sasuke and Uchiha Itachi have been around more...

Never said it couldn't be Obito, I just stated it, from my perceptive, is highly improbable.

Like I said in my proposition it could be a senju with evil intentions or Madara/Sasuke from the future/past..

Like you said though, we wont know till kishi wants us to know lol, I don't really see a point arguing or pointing fingers about it, since anything is possible...

But people have to stop saying "It's not XXXXX' or "It is XXXXX", like how in the world would they know? XD, It should sound something more like "I think it's XXXXX" or " I don't think it's XXXXX" because as to who tobi is, we can only speculate... unless someone other than Kishi here actually knows xd

You got me on Sasuke and Itachi I'll give you that. So lets agree to disagree :hug:.

 

[vUmbrav]

You have yet to supply 1 FACT!

Tsunade looks 25 when she is really 50, but according to your "facts" she is really 25.

What? That's not a good comparison. Tsunade DOES look old... when she isn't using the jutsu that preserves her age. Tobi is doing no such thing. He looks old because he is old. I'm sure other Obito theorists would agree, you're just too stubborn I'm done.

 

[HokageTobiramaXx]

Re: Rebuttals to Ignorant Posts

You got me on Sasuke and Itachi I'll give you that. So lets agree to disagree :hug:.

:ice:

 

[lorul2]

And reasons for Obito trying to destroy the world would be?

Obito is not trying to destroy the world..

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[lorul2]

What? That's not a good comparison. Tsunade DOES look old... when she isn't using the jutsu that preserves her age. Tobi is doing no such thing. He looks old because he is old. I'm sure other Obito theorists would agree, you're just too stubborn I'm done.

Ok, lets meet here next week. I'll bring the Ice cream.:ice:

 

[HokageTobiramaXx]

[/LEFT]

Ok, lets meet here next week. I'll bring the Ice cream.:ice:

let's all meet here in 2 weeks
(no shounen next week) :/

 

[lorul2]

[/LEFT]
let's all meet here in 2 weeks
(no shounen next week) :/

That's right, 2 weeks it is..

 

[HokageTobiramaXx]

That's right, 2 weeks it is..

but remember, if you're wrong no ice cream for you... :noc: