[Discussion] Filling in the plotholes of the Otsutsuki fam (theories/head canon/etc)

wanderingcactus

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They are direct statements and deductions that build on one another, not merely speculations.
yeah, no. they're speculations. you're nitpicking and that's why you are pushing it as "deductions"
Again, use that deduction with MY theory. Those deductions will come true as well. Although I do not hold it as facts like you do.

There are many things that you NEED to happen to make it as you say.

Nagato, an individual, is not a representative of the entire clan.
Therefore, him being Senju through Uzumaki is not a fact.

Simply that he is a Senju

Uzumaki and Senju being relative is both true in our standpont.


Asura jumping clans is proof that it jumps lineages (doesn't matter if Uzumaki is of Senju's line, it meant it jumped).
There are also evidence to suggest that it CAN jump due to Ninshu.

Similarities of Asura is not reflected by his clan of Sage Mode users.

I can bring 100 evidences and not hold weight? ARE YOU DAFT?!

So the statements, databook scans or movie claims, must have some form of deductive evidence that can hold up to scrutiny.

I've scrutinized yours and it was fairly easy. Now scrutinize as to WHY it couldn't be the case for my theory. The fact that I can scrutinize it means that it isn't FACTS and merely a theory. So stop saying that it is FACTS when it isn't.


Also mine is backed by new data. Unlike yours where it was still filled with retcons.

I mean, shit. Kaguya didn't even have Tenseigan by the end of the series.

You've yet to refute my findings.


refute that Nagato isn't part Senju and part Uzumaki
refute the fact that Uzumaki can't be blood relative by being Hamura's descendant (Toneri's side)
refute the fact that Asura cannot jump bloodlines

Post automatically merged:

EXAMPLES OF FACTS:

FACT #1: NAGATO IS A SENJU


No one can refute that. I can't. Nor am I going to.

FACT #2: UZUMAKI AND SENJU ARE DISTANT RELATIVES

Again, I cannot refute that. Nor do I have to.

FACT #3: Naruto is Asura's transmigrant

Again, no point in refuting because it is impossible

SPECULATION: Nagato is senju thereby Uzumaki is Senju.

REBUTTAL: no, Nagato =/= Uzumaki Clan. His Senju blood is not particularly from his Uzumaki blood

SPECUKATION: Senju blood is from Uzumaki

REBUTTAL: no, just because one is distant relatives, do not particularly make one a descendant of the other

SPECULATION: Asura's transmigrant jumped to Uzumaki which makes Uzumakis Senjus

REBUTTAL: no, just because Asura jumps does not mean he can only jump to Senjus.. He has Ninshu and Uzumaki is the closest kin


BTW a kin can be your uncle or your grandma. Just saying... you know, Hamura and Kaguya.. them people.

ergo, your theory can't be called facts as they are refutable.
 
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salamander uchiha

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yeah, no. they're speculations. you're nitpicking and that's why you are pushing it as "deductions"
Again, use that deduction with MY theory. Those deductions will come true as well. Although I do not hold it as facts like you do.

There are many things that you NEED to happen to make it as you say.

Nagato, an individual, is not a representative of the entire clan.
Therefore, him being Senju through Uzumaki is not a fact.

Simply that he is a Senju

Uzumaki and Senju being relative is both true in our standpont.


Asura jumping clans is proof that it jumps lineages (doesn't matter if Uzumaki is of Senju's line, it meant it jumped).
There are also evidence to suggest that it CAN jump due to Ninshu.

They're deductions from available facts and reconciliating the available information.

Each piece of evidence builds on the other, I listed them out with their building blocks. Anyway if Asura went to the Uzumaki and he jumped clans then it's the same as him jumping into his available descendant at that time. Madara dies, shortly after Sasuke is born and and Lishina goes pregnant with Naruto. Obito attacks the leaf and Asura is born just after Indra and the cycle continues. By Madara being alive the cycle was disturbed. Asura could reincarnated into any new available descendant

Similarities of Asura is not reflected by his clan of Sage Mode users.
They wouldn't be, he is the incarnate, and dilution takes place. Indra could manifest PS with his own eyes. Later generations (due to dilution) required their brothers eyes. So why would it be any different if Asura's descendants are diluted down?

I can bring 100 evidences and not hold weight? ARE YOU DAFT?!
re-read what I said.




I've scrutinized yours and it was fairly easy. Now scrutinize as to WHY it couldn't be the case for my theory. The fact that I can scrutinize it means that it isn't FACTS and merely a theory. So stop saying that it is FACTS when it isn't.


Also mine is backed by new data. Unlike yours where it was still filled with retcons.


You haven't presented you're theory, yet. Put it down so we can go over it.
 

wanderingcactus

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Each piece of evidence builds on the other, I listed them out with their building blocks. Anyway if Asura went to the Uzumaki and he jumped clans then it's the same as him jumping into his available descendant at that time. Madara dies, shortly after Sasuke is born and and Lishina goes pregnant with Naruto. Obito attacks the leaf and Asura is born just after Indra and the cycle continues. By Madara being alive the cycle was disturbed. Asura could reincarnated into any new available descendant

For one, there are no longer any Senjus around. Whether you see Uzumaki as Asura's lineage or Hamura's, it does not matter.
Objective here is that he CAN jump clans to the next. So whether he is jumping from his branch means the same thing as jumping to his cousin's. Again, no difference. Only difference is how different, since they are both BODY, then it wouldn't be much so. Also, who's to say that the Senju didn't have OTHER branch families? Why the Uzumaki?

It is moot point on where their origins lie really. Because it relies that Uzumaki is indeed Senjus. There are also no evidence that he MUST jump to Asura lineage.

Just think about it for a sec: If there is no one else in his lineage, where would his soul go? (Say that Uzumaki is not Senju) where can it possibly go?

Of course, it would go to the nearest Yang affinity (as shown with Naruto). Again, clan origins is moot at this point since Uzumaki is either branch or cousins.

So not really a great deduction but a speculation.

They wouldn't be, he is the incarnate, and dilution takes place. Indra could manifest PS with his own eyes. Later generations (due to dilution) required their brothers eyes. So why would it be any different if Asura's descendants are diluted down?
Sure, but Hashirama is also an incarnate. We know that Ninshu isn't an inherit trait but it is taught. Same with Ninjutsu. Hashirama didn't use the Avatar but Naruto was able to use the "Avatar" and link with other people.

Hashirama didn't exhibit any of that. Neither does Tsunade.

Again, you say that the dilution exists and yet the common trait that we found with Senju is the Sage Mode.
Later in the series, we learn that there is Karma and functions the same way (as shown with Momoshiki, Boruto, Kawaki and Jigen).

re-read what I said.
abundance of evidence vs lack of evidence.. yeah try going to that with court. see how long that will take you.

BTW, if you're going with quality > quantity. That is often true. But this does not apply to your case.
For one, you treat the theory of Uzumaki is Senju descendant as a fact but you have to use speculation just to prove that point.

Another is "deduction" if you apply that, your theory against mine, yours will fall apart. Speculation is what holds your case together.

More evidence = more deduction.

Your facts are also my facts. Remember that.

Any incongruity on our part is derived from something else. Therefore, NOT facts but mere speculations and deductions.
You haven't presented you're theory, yet. Put it down so we can go over it.

"I haven't presented my theory"

It's the freaking thread.. Maybe read?
Also the entire discussions that we've had from other threads also present my case.


Do you want me to present why it shits on yours once more?

FACT #1: Nagato is Senju

Your theory: Nagato is Senju, which makes Uzumaki a Senju
My theory: Nagato is an individual with a long history. He is part Senju and part Uzumaki and completely not a representative of the entire clan.

FACT #2: Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives

Your theory: because Nagato is Senju and Senju is related to Uzumaki, it MUST be because the Uzumaki is from Senju
My theory: yep, they're cousins through Hagoromo and Hamura.

FACT #3: Naruto is Asura's transmigrant

Your theory: Nagato being a Senju and Senju being related to Uzumaki, making Uzumaki being Senju and Naruto is an Uzumaki makes Naruto a Senju
My theory: well, Senjus are dead. It has to move to somewhere similar. Uzumaki seem to be the closest one.


Your theory does build on one of the other but all I have to do is refute your speculation from fact 1.

Just because Nagato is a Senju does not make the entire clan a Senju. Nagato is a Senju from someone in his family. Not necessarily the Uzumaki clan.

Boom! you've used logic fallacy. Drawing conclusion from one after the other with wide speculation. Stringing them all together as if they are a compounding unit when there is no reason to believe so. These are 3 separate facts that can be taken separately from one another. Binding them together with speculation is a means to tell a narrative.

This narrative is just that. A narrative, not a fact. It is a theory (I'm not refuting the whole Uzumaki is Senju is a theory. But your claim that it is a fact)

You are appealing to ignorance that I cannot prove nor disprove that Nagato is Senju by Uzumaki ties. So you are taking that as a fact when the only fact presented is that the Uzumaki is related to Senju (much like Uchiha and Hyugas are related to Senju as well).

Again, stop using logical fallacies and actually face the fact that your so called fact is a theory. You keep running around making me prove my theory and doing all this jumping hoops just to distract me and yourself for the crux of the matter:

It's a THEORY. Not a FACT.

GET OVER YOURSELF! I SEE NO MANGA FACTS STATING UZUMAKI IS SENJU DESCENDANT SO STOP SAYING THAT IT IS.

because "deduction" maybe you should learn what deduction means.

Because had you use that, you would actually come to the same conclusion as I had (unless you do not incorporate new information then I suppose your theory will uphold) Regardless, it is still a theory for your case. Not a FACT.
 
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