[FEAR] The Unknown S/T Jutsu User [The White Fang]

[FearxDeath]

[I decided to re-post this because it was recently shown that Tobirama did infact create the FTG, thus giving this theory more credibility.]

You must be registered for see images

Upon reflecting on a question I stumbled upon something, admittedly not conclusive, but interesting nontheless. And even if I am wrong about the outcome the question itself is still one that I would like answered. This ones going to be short so grab a bag of chips, get a drink and enjoy.

The Question​

Spoiler

Given the recent manga we have seen that Tobirama can also use S/T Jutsu. Which may I add was a jutsu that all Minato fanboys claimed Minato, AND MINATO ALONE, could use.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Given the fact that Tobirama could use S/T (Flying Thunder God Technique) I have to ask... IF:

• Tobirama Died during his time as a Hokage making young Hiruzen Hokage at his time of death.
• Hiruzen was sensie to Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru who are considerably older than Minato.

So then who taught Minato S/T Jutsu. Its pretty obvious that Tobirama, the inventor of Edo Tensie also created FTG. But Tobirama would have died far before Minato would have been born. So then who taught it to Minato?

The Formula​

Spoiler

Well to find out who this Mystery S/T User was I just used a basic formula. Whoever fit this formula would have the highest chance of being the mystery person who could have taught Minato S/T. (Granted the premise of this is that said person has already been introduced the the manga, which to me seems likely as Kishi probably wont trot in another powerful ninja just like that.)

Here is the formula:

1. Needed to be old enough to have learned the jutsu from Tobirama but lived long enough to have met Minato.
2. Had to have known Minato or had some connection to him, which would help build the fact that he could be his mentor/teacher.
3. Had to have been a powerful ninja as anyone with FTG would not only have been strong but well known much like Minato.

Upon doing some thinking i found somebody who could fill this formula PERFECTLY

The Answer​

Spoiler

Sakumo Hatake [

You must be registered for see links

].

!) Sakumo is old enough to have known Tobirama given that at the time of his death he was older if not the same age as Hiruzen. Thus making him old enough to have been taught the jutsu by Tobirama.

2) Sakumo Hatake fulfills the 2nd point of my formula with the following scan, inwhich you not only see that Minato knew Sakumo but showed detailed knowledge of what happened and baased on the story he tells he seems to sympathize with him.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

With everyone turning on Sakumo one wonders why Minato didn't. Perhaps there was a relationship there, Teacher and Student even? Not to mention that he also wound up taking up his son as his pupil.. coincidence?

Dive into it a bit further and we see a kind of pattern here. White Fang teaches Minato, who teaches Kakashi (White Fangs son), who teaches Naruto (Minato's Son). In both cases the fathers die prematurely leaving the sons to fend for themselves at a young age and in both cases the sons forgive there fathers. Both fathers are regarded as heros and both sons regarded as prodigies carrying on there fathers legacy. The same legacy which wasnt acknowledged at first. In Naruto's case he did not know Minato was his father, in Kakashi's case he did not want to be seen as Sakumo's son.

3) Now before I talk about the Lore of the infamous "White Fang" I would like you to take a look at the following scans:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

In the scans above we see 3 things that point to the fame of the "White Fang"

• Chiyo seems to know the "White Fang" so much that she could recognize his face in kakashi decades after his death. So much so that she was willing to kill him on sight. This speaks to the power and the fame of the "White Fang"
• Oonoki recognized the last name "Hatake" as belonging to Sakumo and so when Gaara spoke of Kakashi Hatake Oonoki instantly questioned whether the two are related.
• Once again upon hearing the last name "Hatake" The firelord states that he must be the son of the "White Fang"
• The "White Fangs" fame was even so much that the Iwakagure Ninja hesitated to attack Kakashi after realizing that he might be his son.

The main thing here is that these are all extremely powerful Shinobi, people who dont take the time to remember the names of Shinobi that are up to snuff. And each of them have never forgotten the "White Fang". This speaks to how strong he must have been for his name/fame to have not only be so widespread but so everlasting. But does that remind you of anyone else???

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

Conclusion​

Spoiler

In conclusion I think that Sakumo Hatake could also use FTG Jutsu, I believed he learned it from Tobirama and was the person who taught Minato how to use it. [Even compare there nicknames... "White Fang" and "Yellow Flash"]

*And ofcourse that opens up some possibilities of Kakashi learning S/T *

Update 1​

Spoiler

With the recent Manga's released we now know that Tobirama did infact invent FTG AKA Hiraishin.

Shout outs to Venuboppudi for pointing this out to me but in the following scan you see Tobirama refer to his technique as "Hiraishin". That is the EXACT same name of the jutsu Minato uses. With that any talk about Tobirama and Minato using different jutsu are squashed.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Update 2​

Spoiler

Alot of people are countering with the idea that perhaps Hiruzen taught Minato FTG as he is hokage and must know all the techniques in the village. And thus Tobirama could have created a scroll, passed it down to the 3rd, and then the 3rd gives the scroll to Minato. Here are some problems with that:

• Tobirama couldnt have taught Hiruzen FTG because he died before Hiruzen became hokage, essentially taking to jutsu to his grave. And if Hiruzen did know FTG I am sure we would have seen it by now. All hokages have a seal on them and Minato was the 4th. So during the kyubi attack Hiruzen could have S/T'ed to him rather than run around trying to find out what he was doing.
• If Hiruzen knew FTG then why wouldnt he use it to leave the barrier created by the sound 4 when they trapped him with Orochimaru.
• Why would Hiruzen teach it to Minato? According to the handbook his own students Orochimaru, Tsunade and Jiraiya graduated from the Academy at age 6. Minato graduated at age 10. What was so special about Minato that he would chose him AT RANDOM to teach the FTG rather than Orochimaru, he beloved genius student.
• If Hiruzen had the scrolls left by Tobirama then how does Orochimaru know Edo? I heard someone say that he may have learned it by... examining Tobirama's dead body... but we see the scroll of Edo Tensie in Orochimaru's secret hideout. Which is why Sasuke Revived him.

Not only that but the idea that Hiruzen teaches Minato FTG via a scroll is also LESS LIKELY
than mine. Because of a scientific theory called "Occams Razor" - which basically means when you have 2 competing theories, the theory that makes the least amount of assumptions is the more likely theory.

Assumptions my theory makes:

• Sakumo had to have been well known and powerful, deserving of the lore of S/T Jutsu. [Proven]
• Sakumo had to have known Minato, preferably known him well. [Proven]
• Sakumo had to have been old enough to know Tobirama and young enough to know Minato. [Proven]
• Tobirama knew Sakumo [Assumed since Tobirama was Hokage he would have known someone as skilled as Sakumo]
• Proof that Tobirama taught Sakumo FTG [Unproven]
• Proof that Sakumo taught Minato FTG [Unproven]

Assumptions the other theory makes:

• Tobirama created an FTG Scroll [Can be assumed since he also created an Edo Scroll but still is not proven]
• Upon his death Tobirama had the FTG Scroll in a different location than the Edo Scroll so that when Orochimaru stole the Edo Scroll he did not also take the FTG Scroll. [Not only is it unlikely but it too is unproven]
• Hiruzen managed to get the FTG Scroll but he himself could not use it. [Unproven]
• Hiruzen then taught Minato, for no particular reason, FTG. [Unproven]
• Hiruzen would have seen no one else to want to teach FTG to other than Minato. [Unproven]

Now I can continue to nitpick at the other theory but I think this is more than enough to show that My theory is more likely as it makes less assumptions and the assumptions that it does make are alleviated by other evidences like Sakumo knowing Minato, and him being incredibly famous and powerful, more so than the Sannin.

And with that we see that by using Occam's Razor my theory is more likely than the unseen scroll theory as it makes less assumptions.

I hope you guys enjoyed the theory, It may not be conclusive but I think I make as good as case as any that Sakumo was an S/T User. As always if you like it feel free to rep and comment

You must be registered for see images

 

[3 Tomoe Rinnegan]

Kishi wouldn't have brought him up if he didn't have any relevance to the story. Good thread

 

[Like Naruto]

dude next time make a theory that worth reading, this kind of theories about tobirama is too old, i mean yeah we all know that his a god created all bunch of epic jutsu we know that, jusy saying....

 

[Yata]

It's plausible, and coincides with this thread.

You must be registered for see links

It seems to be more reason for Kakashi to be related to Tobirama - having a S/T ninjutsu himself.

 

[MeowmeownametakenQQ]

Naruto learned Kage bunshin from a scroll, even though Tobirama created the kage bunshin jutsu.
Why cant Minato learn it from a scroll?
He could have just learned it from a scroll, even though your theory is fine, it is not required for Minato to have had
someone teaching him FTG.

 

[cptenn94]

Wow that was a well done thread, and easy to read, and you made your points useing logic and reasoning. Gj

 

[BlacLord™]

I'd say Minato taught Minato S/T as much as Tobirama created FTG by himself and self-taught it's use.

It's one of those special jutsus that I doubt you'd walk up to a Sensei and just ask them to teach.

It's a well put together theory all the same!

 

[Calpal]

Still, there are things that are questionable about it..
But overall good read and nice theory, got me thinking.
If Kakashi knew ftg, and had kamui that would amp up his O.G.ness to a whole new level Lol

 

[Bimbonium]

He probably learnt it from the same scroll naruto lernt kage bushin from.
Nice theory though.

 

[PYROVT]

yup this theory is possible but

i can put up an argument like this

minato was well versed in uzumaki seals , hence has great mastery over them , then he some how comes up with the idea of somewhat of reverse summoning hence begins work , finishes upto certain extent ,( we can support it by seeing the diff in justsu formua while tobirama's resemles the senju clan symbol , minato 's is diff)

then approaches he third with this idea , then the third tells about the second gives scroll etc etc

the thing is i kindoff believe that to use st jutsu u shud somehow be eligible of sorts coz minato taught to genma and co the tech but they were nevr able to use it individually , they needed three of them to perform the tech

 

[Edosadman]

It kind of makes sense as to why the White Fang is famous. How could he have been such a badass if he possesses no powerful jutsu, can you imagine Kakashi without his Sharingan? He probably would have been as good as Neji or less.

 

[Blaze Release]

Sometimes i feel people forget that s/t techniques is actually one of the most common techniques in the series.
The kuchiyose an s/t technique is actually used by a fair bit of shinobi's. People seem to think only hiraishin and kamui are the only s/t techniques.

Also i disagree with you saying Tobirama created s/t techniques. If you are talking about hiraishin and edo tensei then yes its canon. If you mean the actual kuchyiose technique that is the principal of hiraishin then i disagree. There is nothing supporting you there.

Besides both hashirama and Madara, shinobi's in Tobirama's generation have both shown jukkakuin based techniques.
Hashirama's is the Gojū Rashōmon

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Madara holds a contract with kurama and was about to summon it if not for it being in naruto

You must be registered for see links

Anyway, im not too sure.
I would have thought the hiraishin would be in the Fūin no Sho that naruto stole (along with the edo tensei) which contained the tajuu kage bunshin. But that scroll was banned by Hashirama and was only available to the hokage as it is in the hokage residence. Minato was using Hiraishin before he became hokage. Orochimaru never became hokage therefore how both of them learnt these techniques is a mystery. Perhaps it may be in the konoha library or they gained access to the scroll somehow, or other means.

OT. We still know very little about Sakumo and his jutsu's. What you propose might be possible. Example he seems fairly good, i think at kenjutsu because he wielded the tanto that kid kakashi had. Perhaps he uses this tanto in similar fashion to Tobirama's hiraishingiri or Minato usage of hiraishin kunai's.

Im leaning towards minato teaching himself after somehow stumbling on this technique (hiraishin) though, but who knows. Good thread

 

[Avinash012]

Sometimes i feel people forget that s/t techniques is actually one of the most common techniques in the series.
The kuchiyose an s/t technique is actually used by a fair bit of shinobi's. People seem to think only hiraishin and kamui are the only s/t techniques.

Also i disagree with you saying Tobirama created s/t techniques. If you are talking about hiraishin and edo tensei then yes its canon. If you mean the actual kuchyiose technique that is the principal of hiraishin then i disagree. There is nothing supporting you there.

Besides both hashirama and Madara, shinobi's in Tobirama's generation have both shown jukkakuin based techniques.
Hashirama's is the Gojū Rashōmon

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

Madara holds a contract with kurama and was about to summon it if not for it being in naruto

You must be registered for see links

Anyway, im not too sure.
I would have thought the hiraishin would be in the Fūin no Sho that naruto stole (along with the edo tensei) which contained the tajuu kage bunshin. But that scroll was banned by Hashirama and was only available to the hokage as it is in the hokage residence. Minato was using Hiraishin before he became hokage. Orochimaru never became hokage therefore how both of them learnt these techniques is a mystery. Perhaps it may be in the konoha library or they gained access to the scroll somehow, or other means.

OT. We still know very little about Sakumo and his jutsu's. What you propose might be possible. Example he seems fairly good, i think at kenjutsu because he wielded the tanto that kid kakashi had. Perhaps he uses this tanto in similar fashion to Tobirama's hiraishingiri or Minato usage of hiraishin kunai's.

Im leaning towards minato teaching himself after somehow stumbling on this technique (hiraishin) though, but who knows. Good thread

I completly agree with this^^^^^^

Oro would have stolen that scroll..
and FTG isn't a forbidden jutsu so Minato would have learned it by readng Scroll's....

OT: Sakumo is about the same age as Sannin or a bit Younger than them which means that he a 5-10 years old kid when Tobirama died ,I dnt think he can learn FTG at the age of 10

 

[thegame]

Extremely doubtful theory due to a number of reasons:

1. Sakumo according to you would be around Hiruzen's age, which seems legit, as Kakashi and Asuma are about the same age, however, why did we never see Sakumo as Tobirama's student? We saw several instances of Hiruzen as his students, both when he just became a genin, but also when he later was appointed the next hokage. This alone makes the theory very risky and very unlikely. It would be wiser to aim at someone, who we actually know have any sort of contact with the 2nd hokage, and thus could have learned from him. Tobirama spoke highly of Uchiha Kagami, and thus he makes a better candidate already..

2. Basing most of it on name symbolism, although that is pretty poor as well. "White fang" most certainly refers to the usage of ninja dogs, which is a specialty within the Hatake clan. Thus it has nothing to do with a "yellow flash", which refers to Minato's speed and the color of his hair. They often have nicknames referring to some unique color. Take Gai for instance, he is the "green beast".

3. From recent chapters we saw Minato referring to Hirashin as his own jutsu, which sort of pissed the 2nd hokage. Minato did know, that the 2nd could use S/T jutsu as well, which Hiruzen probably told him, but he had no idea, it would be the exact same type as himself. Why else would Minato refer to Tobirama's S/T jutsu in such an open manner. If he knew it was Hirashin, he would have called it that.

4. We also know Minato's teacher, namely Jiraya. We even saw Minato along with 2 other unknown students, meaning he was both his genin teacher and later his master.

You must be registered for see images

We could start doing calculations about Kakashi's fathers death and Minato's age at that time, which could definitively blow this theory but I need to cook some food xD anyway I made my point, it was a nice read though!

 

[FearxDeath]

I completly agree with this^^^^^^

Oro would have stolen that scroll..
and FTG isn't a forbidden jutsu so Minato would have learned it by readng Scroll's....

OT: Sakumo is about the same age as Sannin or a bit Younger than them which means that he a 5-10 years old kid when Tobirama died ,I dnt think he can learn FTG at the age of 10

I disagree, based on my math he would be around 12 or so. Which is young mind you, but Kakashi invented his own just, The Chidori, and A ranked jutsu at that same age. Konahamoru learned the Rasengan an A Ranked Jutsu at the same age, with Naruto learning the technique as well at the age of 12.

It doesnt strike me as odd that Sakumo may have begun training to master this technique with Tobirama's help. Not to mention that he carries the same kind of blade that Tobirama carries, which Tobirama uses in conjuction with his hiraishin.

Far be it for me to put thoughts in peoples heads, all I am saying is that their is a connection here, one that should not be easily dismissed as conjecture.

Extremely doubtful theory due to a number of reasons:

1. Sakumo according to you would be around Hiruzen's age, which seems legit, as Kakashi and Asuma are about the same age, however, why did we never see Sakumo as Tobirama's student? We saw several instances of Hiruzen as his students, both when he just became a genin, but also when he later was appointed the next hokage. This alone makes the theory very risky and very unlikely. It would be wiser to aim at someone, who we actually know have any sort of contact with the 2nd hokage, and thus could have learned from him. Tobirama spoke highly of Uchiha Kagami, and thus he makes a better candidate already..

2. Basing most of it on name symbolism, although that is pretty poor as well. "White fang" most certainly refers to the usage of ninja dogs, which is a specialty within the Hatake clan. Thus it has nothing to do with a "yellow flash", which refers to Minato's speed and the color of his hair. They often have nicknames referring to some unique color. Take Gai for instance, he is the "green beast".

3. From recent chapters we saw Minato referring to Hirashin as his own jutsu, which sort of pissed the 2nd hokage. Minato did know, that the 2nd could use S/T jutsu as well, which Hiruzen probably told him, but he had no idea, it would be the exact same type as himself. Why else would Minato refer to Tobirama's S/T jutsu in such an open manner. If he knew it was Hirashin, he would have called it that.

4. We also know Minato's teacher, namely Jiraya. We even saw Minato along with 2 other unknown students, meaning he was both his genin teacher and later his master.

You must be registered for see images

We could start doing calculations about Kakashi's fathers death and Minato's age at that time, which could definitively blow this theory but I need to cook some food xD anyway I made my point, it was a nice read though!

Going to openly say I disagree with alot of this.

1) In your first paragraph you are basically saying, since we didnt see Sakumo as Tobirama student then therefore Sakumo wasnt Tobirama's student. Which is a good point I suppose, but an obvious one. Theories are based on the connections that are they but you may not have seen. I have given my reasons for chosing Sakumo as oppose to others and I believe they are good ones.

2) First off I have no recollection of the Hatake families specialty being ninja dogs, they may be, but I just never heard of that. Is there anyway you can provide a scan that reflects this? Lastly if your going to challenge the symbolism of the name the best route would be to link to to the sword he has which glows white when used... Regardless the symbolism was obviously not a selling point of my thread, rather a side note I made... in the conclusion of my thread... within brackets...

3) This makes no sense...

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Because Naruto was the one who made the comment, not Minato...and your entire paragraph is based on the idea that Minato said this instead? But he didnt.. so...

4) What?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

And I suppose that this picture means that Kakashi was both Naruto's genin teacher and his master??? But... we KNOW that Jiraiya trained Naruto?

5) "We could start doing calculations about Kakashi's fathers death and Minato's age at that time, which could definitively blow this theory but I need to cook some food xD anyway I made my point, it was a nice read though! "

We know that Minato was

You must be registered for see links

. We know that he died died the same day Naruto was born, and we Sakumo commited suicide about 6 years before Naruto was born, which means he commited suicide about 6 years before Minato died. Which would put his death at around the time Minato was 16 years old. Im not sure if this helps you blow my theory.

 

[ExoKar]

Your theory sounds awfully possible. I think we'll have the answer when/if Kakashi get out of the Kamui Dimension and sees Tobirama.

 

[Makz]

Naruto learned Kage bunshin from a scroll, even though Tobirama created the kage bunshin jutsu.
Why cant Minato learn it from a scroll?
He could have just learned it from a scroll, even though your theory is fine, it is not required for Minato to have had
someone teaching him FTG.

I was about to say the same thing. Who is to say that scroll wasn't in fact Tobirama's scroll with his jutsu in it? Naruto learned only one technique, obviously there were more and FTG could have been in there as well.

 

[FearxDeath]

I was about to say the same thing. Who is to say that scroll wasn't in fact Tobirama's scroll with his jutsu in it? Naruto learned only one technique, obviously there were more and FTG could have been in there as well.

That is a possibility, but one must still ask how Minato got the scroll, and why. And then judge whether that seems more likely than him merely being taught by sakumo.

 

[thegame]

Going to openly say I disagree with alot of this.

1) In your first paragraph you are basically saying, since we didnt see Sakumo as Tobirama student then therefore Sakumo wasnt Tobirama's student. Which is a good point I suppose, but an obvious one. Theories are based on the connections that are they but you may not have seen. I have given my reasons for chosing Sakumo as oppose to others and I believe they are good ones.

2) First off I have no recollection of the Hatake families specialty being ninja dogs, they may be, but I just never heard of that. Is there anyway you can provide a scan that reflects this? Lastly if your going to challenge the symbolism of the name the best route would be to link to to the sword he has which glows white when used... Regardless the symbolism was obviously not a selling point of my thread, rather a side note I made... in the conclusion of my thread... within brackets...

3) This makes no sense...

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Because Naruto was the one who made the comment, not Minato...and your entire paragraph is based on the idea that Minato said this instead? But he didnt.. so...

4) What?

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

And I suppose that this picture means that Kakashi was both Naruto's genin teacher and his master??? But... we KNOW that Jiraiya trained Naruto?

5) "We could start doing calculations about Kakashi's fathers death and Minato's age at that time, which could definitively blow this theory but I need to cook some food xD anyway I made my point, it was a nice read though! "

We know that Minato was

You must be registered for see links

. We know that he died died the same day Naruto was born, and we Sakumo commited suicide about 6 years before Naruto was born, which means he commited suicide about 6 years before Minato died. Which would put his death at around the time Minato was 16 years old. Im not sure if this helps you blow my theory.

1) I never said, he wasn't his student. I just gave a number of reasons, that makes your theory extremely doubtful. If Sakumo was Tobirama's student, why not show him with him at least once? That way connections can be made for a theory. There is no evidence at all, except that they lived long enough to have known one another. That is the only fulfilled condition, but on the other hand, if it wasn't fulfilled, there would be no theory.

2) Do you know, what fang means? Else look it up. It's sharp teeth, which dogs have, and obviously Sakumo didn't have that, lol. Kakashi uses ninja dogs, and as far as I recall, he also acts quite "well" around Kiba and Akamaru. I have no other proof, but we only know 2 shinobi from the hatake clan. One we surely know that he uses ninja dogs, and the other has a name, that heavily implies it.

3) Well I was referring to this:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

but I was looking at a different translation than this. My point was that Minato would not refer to hirashin in this manner, if he knew, that he and the 2nd were using the exact same jutsu. Of course this translations make more sense, and thus seems like I was wrong, but nevermind that, it doesn't really change the subject, I was simply trying to suggest the possibility of Minato to have learned the jutsu by himself. If one person can create a jutsu, another person can create the exact same jutsu as well.

4) But it's no shit. Though it will take time to find in the manga, and I have to study, you can look here, Jiraya took Minato as his apprentice, which would most likely be after he was done training his team. And we know Jiraya thought of Minato as the child of prophecy, so he would obviously have done as much for him, as he did for Naruto. If not more.

You must be registered for see links

5) Well, still not much to grasp onto for this theory Btw, we don't know for sure, what his age was, since it's based on assumptions as well. But it's a good approximation, till databook says otherwise. So it's just more assumptions for the everlasting theories full of holes I've seen solid theories from you with actual substance, but sadly I can't see it in this one. Just speaking straight forward here.

 

[NaraFanboy]

So Kakashi's dad taught Naruto's dad so that Naruto's dad could teach Kakashi so that Kakashi could teach Naruto. Sounds like a kishi move. Kakashi better make some kids if this cycle is going to continue.

@thegame above cites (3) that Minato admits that Tobi's S/T is superior to his AND Hiruzen's. That Minato could have learned S/T from a scroll and that Oro could have learned edo tensei with a scroll should not be too hard to accept at this point in the manga. Even Naruto learned from a scroll... day 1 shiet.

If Minato can teach FTG to three "fodder" (

You must be registered for see links

) then why couldn't he have learned it from Hiruzen (who trained under the creator of the jutsu). Or, again, from a scroll. Try reading a book guys you'll get power ups.



To be a jackass I'll posit that Minato actually learned it from Hashirama's children, Tsunade's parents (never named or mentioned) before their death or disappearance.