[FEAR] The Unknown S/T Jutsu User [The White Fang]

[FearxDeath]

1) I never said, he wasn't his student. I just gave a number of reasons, that makes your theory extremely doubtful. If Sakumo was Tobirama's student, why not show him with him at least once? That way connections can be made for a theory. There is no evidence at all, except that they lived long enough to have known one another. That is the only fulfilled condition, but on the other hand, if it wasn't fulfilled, there would be no theory.

2) Do you know, what fang means? Else look it up. It's sharp teeth, which dogs have, and obviously Sakumo didn't have that, lol. Kakashi uses ninja dogs, and as far as I recall, he also acts quite "well" around Kiba and Akamaru. I have no other proof, but we only know 2 shinobi from the hatake clan. One we surely know that he uses ninja dogs, and the other has a name, that heavily implies it.

3) Well I was referring to this:

Spoiler

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but I was looking at a different translation than this. My point was that Minato would not refer to hirashin in this manner, if he knew, that he and the 2nd were using the exact same jutsu. Of course this translations make more sense, and thus seems like I was wrong, but nevermind that, it doesn't really change the subject, I was simply trying to suggest the possibility of Minato to have learned the jutsu by himself. If one person can create a jutsu, another person can create the exact same jutsu as well.

4) But it's no shit. Though it will take time to find in the manga, and I have to study, you can look here, Jiraya took Minato as his apprentice, which would most likely be after he was done training his team. And we know Jiraya thought of Minato as the child of prophecy, so he would obviously have done as much for him, as he did for Naruto. If not more.

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5) Well, still not much to grasp onto for this theory Btw, we don't know for sure, what his age was, since it's based on assumptions as well. But it's a good approximation, till databook says otherwise. So it's just more assumptions for the everlasting theories full of holes I've seen solid theories from you with actual substance, but sadly I can't see it in this one. Just speaking straight forward here.

1) Again you are saying that if it was true, we would have seen it, and because we havent seen it, it cannot be true... but that logic goes against everything theories stand for. And if we "had" seen it, then there would be no reason to create a thread pointing out the obvious. We have never seen any of Tobirama's students other than his genin team.

2) Oh I see, so you saw fang, and realized that Kakashi's summoning animals are ninja dogs, claims "He acts well around kiba" and proceeded to use those observations to create a "manga fact" that you believe everyone should acknowledge?

3) I can see how the scan you just showed reflects this "From recent chapters we saw Minato referring to Hirashin as his own jutsu, which sort of pissed the 2nd hokage. Minato did know" So they just so happened to create the exact same jutsu? That seems more plausible than him being taught? It feels like people are coming up with outlandish statements and proposing them as alternatives just because its possible and not because it is likely.

And here is the weird thing, if you really really did want to prove me wrong, what you could have said was this "Hey, he says it surpasses both mine and the seconds techniques, but why doesnt he mention this teacher" and I would have been like "Hmm, thats a good point"...

4) And I guess what your implying here is that a person can only be trained by 1 person? 'Sorry Sakumo Jiraiya is training me so you can go kick rocks?' Naruto didnt say that to Jiraiya when Kakashi was his teacher, He didnt say that to Pa toad after Jiraiya died, he didnt say that to Yamato when he helped Naruto learned Wind Rasengan...

5) I can respect that, your replies are normally the more straightforwards ones, and I know your not the type of person to be disagreeable with out good reason. But I suppose we just have to disagree on this one. Dont get me wrong I am not saying that this is fact, I was merely stating that it is a possibility that if true sheds a little light on Sakumo. I basically started with this question:

If Minato did have a teacher, which is implied by everything throughout the manga, then who could his teacher be. (People want to shot that down by saying he could have learned via a scroll like Orochimaru and Naruto did. But those are bad examples are both scrolls were forbidden and off limits. Naruto was tricked into getting the scroll and Oro ofcourse is a bad guy. So any reason they can dream up for Minato getting his hands on it would fall under Plot no Jutsu. Its alot more believable to assume he had a teacher.)

As the formula says the Teacher, if he had one, would have to be old enough to have been alive during both their lifetimes, well known, and dead since if around he would actively have a part in the manga.

Sakumo was the only person who fit the bill, after I came to that conclusion all the connections made between him, kakashi, Jiraiya and Minato just fell together like a puzzle.

 

[Nous]

It's possible and you make sense but I doubt Kishimoto would expand upon this.

 

[veggetta13]

It all makes perfect sense but sometimes Kishi just doesn´t think about the plot that much.. e.g.: Edo tensei(he changed all of it between 1st n 2nd part)?, How to attain Susano´o (Tsukoyomi+Amaterasu, but some noobs complain some othEr UChiha uses Susano´O without manipulating amaterASU)?,requirements for acquiring Mangenkyo Sharingan?,....

and the list goes on and on. However it´s pretty sweet you came up with the idea of relating the pedagogy of the jutsu with Sakumo "TWF". I really believe Kakashi´s dad must have been something for passing on such hyper genius skills to Kakashi. Plus,a possible Senju DNA match.

Why? Because Kakashi knows a 1000 jutsus or so, and the Senjus are said in the manga to be able to learn and practice "thousands of jutsus"..... thanks for the work on the thread.

 

[Draxus]

A huge whole in this thread is that the assumption that some one taught FTG to Minato instead of him learning how it's down from a scroll like Oro learned Edo Tensei and Naruto learned Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu (all Tobirama jutsu's).

So unless you can give me some solid evidence to the White Fang having some sort of S/T jutsu I'm going to have to say "no" on this theory. He could have been famous and not have FTG many other ninja have.

 

[FearxDeath]

A huge whole in this thread is that the assumption that some one taught FTG to Minato instead of him learning how it's down from a scroll like Oro learned Edo Tensei and Naruto learned Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu (all Tobirama jutsu's).

So unless you can give me some solid evidence to the White Fang having some sort of S/T jutsu I'm going to have to say "no" on this theory. He could have been famous and not have FTG many other ninja have.

How is that a hole when I cover that exact subject in the 2nd update? This makes me feel like you didnt read my thread fully...

 

[Draxus]

How is that a hole when I cover that exact subject in the 2nd update? This makes me feel like you didnt read my thread fully...

You covered it, but not a strong counter, since knowing how to and being able to use a jutsu are two different things. If FTG was something Hiruzen could have learned then Tobirama would have taught it to him, scroll or no scroll. So the more logical conclusion is that it takes a special ninja in order to perform it. What you presented is reasonable doubt at best. And that Occam's Razor bit is pretty funny, but not convincing (well it made me chuckle). The amount of assumptions made have to be determined empirically and that's not possible in a fantasy story/realm. I could create one that shows yours makes far more assumptions.

It's my theory you have to meet 3 requisites to be able to do FTG and Hiruzen, and many other ninja, don't meet them. I based this off the fact it takes 3 normal high ranked ninja to do it, not every other Konoha ninja has it, the basics of how the jutsu works, and that Minato excels in all 3 fields. Later when Tobirama was made the original create I saw he fit all 3 as well.
1) Sealing technique master
2) Excellent chakra control
3) Sensory proficiency

If you want more details on my FTG theory PM me, I don't wanna high-jack your thread. As my real issue w/ this theory is the fact there is NO hint of Kakashi's dad having FTG. Also when time space users are thought of, Minato didn't even think to mention the name of the person who you say taught it to him, but mentions Tobirama. In fact you theory would be more valid if it was simply that Minato learned it from someone than specifically a person who isn't known to possess any t/s jutsu.

 

[OMGitsShakra]

I like this theory...i cannot come up with anything to say against it at the moment. It does make things fit the bill of logic better than say....Minato being Tsunades kid as being an explanation of things regarding Minato.

Ok so...tobirama possibly taught sakumo s/t(who has been recognized by Hiruzen, Chiyo, and others as =to sannin), who possibly taught minato s/t sometime before (would explain Kakashi getting put with Minato at first)he was training with jiraiya, who in turn taught Kakashi, who in return taught Naruto. This makes sense seeing as their tends to be a relationship between people who are hokage and the famous (naturally) or known to be gifted

one question would be, that came to mind and could be irrelavent, did Minato learn from Sakumo before or after going with Jiraiya? assuming by the picture Minato was young when training with Jiraiya (If thats indeed what happened) Its hard to say which technique would have been harder, rasengan or s/t...considering naruto's feat with it, id say rasengan but it took the 4th 3 years or something to come up with that move...and then he didnt prefect it before he died...that puts 5 years roughly there between the time Sakumo died and the time Minato died (if those calculations are correct) I guess Minato could have trained with Sakumo prior to turning 16 but then the only timeframe that makes sense is that he either somehow learned s/t before probably turning 12 or 13. He was a genius but do you guys think thats possible? (im sorry if my question and reasoning doesnt make sense..i know sometimes i can be confusing)

thats the only thing i am wondering...for the timeline to work out i guess im saying, could minato have learned that feat before the age of 12? I guess if Itachi was in anbu by 13 and Kakashi a jonin by 11/12 its not so out there but i put the technique he learned on a higher level than the basic..its equal if not better to the 2nds, the guy who invented it! how do we know minato died at 22? seems like a logical age, him and kushina don't seem older than that at all but just wondering if we know for sure how old he was when he died?

It doesnt mention anything about Sakumo knowing space time, but there is def a correlation between minato, sakumo, kakashi, and tobirama (maybe including hiruzen or jiraiya somewhere in there too) and we are hopefully going to find out soon

 

[ClydeFrog]

Another awesome thread, thanks for the good read.

 

[thegame]

1) Again you are saying that if it was true, we would have seen it, and because we havent seen it, it cannot be true... but that logic goes against everything theories stand for. And if we "had" seen it, then there would be no reason to create a thread pointing out the obvious. We have never seen any of Tobirama's students other than his genin team.

2) Oh I see, so you saw fang, and realized that Kakashi's summoning animals are ninja dogs, claims "He acts well around kiba" and proceeded to use those observations to create a "manga fact" that you believe everyone should acknowledge?

3) I can see how the scan you just showed reflects this "From recent chapters we saw Minato referring to Hirashin as his own jutsu, which sort of pissed the 2nd hokage. Minato did know" So they just so happened to create the exact same jutsu? That seems more plausible than him being taught? It feels like people are coming up with outlandish statements and proposing them as alternatives just because its possible and not because it is likely.

And here is the weird thing, if you really really did want to prove me wrong, what you could have said was this "Hey, he says it surpasses both mine and the seconds techniques, but why doesnt he mention this teacher" and I would have been like "Hmm, thats a good point"...

4) And I guess what your implying here is that a person can only be trained by 1 person? 'Sorry Sakumo Jiraiya is training me so you can go kick rocks?' Naruto didnt say that to Jiraiya when Kakashi was his teacher, He didnt say that to Pa toad after Jiraiya died, he didnt say that to Yamato when he helped Naruto learned Wind Rasengan...

5) I can respect that, your replies are normally the more straightforwards ones, and I know your not the type of person to be disagreeable with out good reason. But I suppose we just have to disagree on this one. Dont get me wrong I am not saying that this is fact, I was merely stating that it is a possibility that if true sheds a little light on Sakumo. I basically started with this question:

If Minato did have a teacher, which is implied by everything throughout the manga, then who could his teacher be. (People want to shot that down by saying he could have learned via a scroll like Orochimaru and Naruto did. But those are bad examples are both scrolls were forbidden and off limits. Naruto was tricked into getting the scroll and Oro ofcourse is a bad guy. So any reason they can dream up for Minato getting his hands on it would fall under Plot no Jutsu. Its alot more believable to assume he had a teacher.)

As the formula says the Teacher, if he had one, would have to be old enough to have been alive during both their lifetimes, well known, and dead since if around he would actively have a part in the manga.

Sakumo was the only person who fit the bill, after I came to that conclusion all the connections made between him, kakashi, Jiraiya and Minato just fell together like a puzzle.

1) Sigh, so if we saw Sakumo as part of Tobirama's group, when Tobirama died and made Hiruzen the 3rd hokage, it would be a fact? =D=D no it wouldn't, cause we got very little knowledge about the other persons in that group, but you would have actual evidence, that Sakumo had worked with Tobirama, and thus you would have the basis for a theory. You cannot make this basis on the simple fact, that they lived at the same time. That makes a theory solely based on assumptions, which is more fan fiction than a theory. This is what I said, I never said we have to see Sakumo being trained by Tobirama, dno why I have to explain it over and over...

2) I never called it a manga fact, I called it most certain. But then let me ask you this: how many shinobi of the same clan, have you seen using different summonings? I can think of very few. Of course it's possible he had no summons, but then what about the fangs? And Kakashi uses his dogs so they can use their fangs to hold his victim up, as he did against Zabuza, when Haku died.

3) Lol, but that is exactly what you have done in this theory anyway, so you should be the last to oppose any of it.

4) Well basically, did you ever see a person training many shinobi at once? Kakashi left Naruto to Ebisu, when he was gonna train Sasuke. No shinobi are alike, so it's easier to train one at a time, since you will need to teach them different things. Most of the training shinobi do together, they do for the same purpose.

5) Well he had a teacher, Jiraya, as I've been saying over and over... He was even referred to as Jiraya's apprentice. Besides, too little is known about Hirashin. It's most likely a forbidden jutsu, which explains why no other persons have been using it. It's a simple jutsu, though, because it doesn't seem to require any special chakra type, and doesn't seem to require much complex seals. This is why I believe he created Hirashin for himself, or perhaps he was involved in some incident akin to the way Naruto learned the forbidden multi shadow clone technique.

And Jiraya could also have known Tobirama, since Tsunade knew Hashirama. There are even other options, for instance that you do indeed need a specific nature type to use Hirashin, we cannot be sure, as I said, it just doesn't seem like it, but what if you need a certain nature? Minato could have this, and Jiraya (or Sakumo for that manner) could have learned the seals, and thus passed it on to the right apprentice, who had that nature type.
Of course, realistically speaking I don't believe much of this. I think Minato created it himself, because he is simply a genius, and it's not unlikely for one technique to be created twice. This also explains the paradox you mentioned, that why wouldn't he mention the one who taught it to him? But of course we still have other options available, as I mentioned above, so even this is non-conclusive.

 

[FearxDeath]

1) Sigh, so if we saw Sakumo as part of Tobirama's group, when Tobirama died and made Hiruzen the 3rd hokage, it would be a fact? =D=D no it wouldn't, cause we got very little knowledge about the other persons in that group, but you would have actual evidence, that Sakumo had worked with Tobirama, and thus you would have the basis for a theory. You cannot make this basis on the simple fact, that they lived at the same time. That makes a theory solely based on assumptions, which is more fan fiction than a theory. This is what I said, I never said we have to see Sakumo being trained by Tobirama, dno why I have to explain it over and over...

2) I never called it a manga fact, I called it most certain. But then let me ask you this: how many shinobi of the same clan, have you seen using different summonings? I can think of very few. Of course it's possible he had no summons, but then what about the fangs? And Kakashi uses his dogs so they can use their fangs to hold his victim up, as he did against Zabuza, when Haku died.

3) Lol, but that is exactly what you have done in this theory anyway, so you should be the last to oppose any of it.

4) Well basically, did you ever see a person training many shinobi at once? Kakashi left Naruto to Ebisu, when he was gonna train Sasuke. No shinobi are alike, so it's easier to train one at a time, since you will need to teach them different things. Most of the training shinobi do together, they do for the same purpose.

5) Well he had a teacher, Jiraya, as I've been saying over and over... He was even referred to as Jiraya's apprentice. Besides, too little is known about Hirashin. It's most likely a forbidden jutsu, which explains why no other persons have been using it. It's a simple jutsu, though, because it doesn't seem to require any special chakra type, and doesn't seem to require much complex seals. This is why I believe he created Hirashin for himself, or perhaps he was involved in some incident akin to the way Naruto learned the forbidden multi shadow clone technique.

And Jiraya could also have known Tobirama, since Tsunade knew Hashirama. There are even other options, for instance that you do indeed need a specific nature type to use Hirashin, we cannot be sure, as I said, it just doesn't seem like it, but what if you need a certain nature? Minato could have this, and Jiraya (or Sakumo for that manner) could have learned the seals, and thus passed it on to the right apprentice, who had that nature type.
Of course, realistically speaking I don't believe much of this. I think Minato created it himself, because he is simply a genius, and it's not unlikely for one technique to be created twice. This also explains the paradox you mentioned, that why wouldn't he mention the one who taught it to him? But of course we still have other options available, as I mentioned above, so even this is non-conclusive.

1) So again I say that you approach the sitatuation with the notion that we NEED to have seen a picture with someone with TObirama to assume that they had any kind of interaction. But that isnt true, we logically know that he had to have had some kind of interactions with other ninja, the Hokage, if I remember correctly, has to know the name of everybody in the village and know them as well. Now that added to the fact that Sakumo was such a skilled ninja only adds to the fact that Tobirama had to have known him because him being famous only exemplifies what I mentioned above. But one thing you NEED to understand, is again. I am NOT working from start to finish, I am working from finish to start. I am not looking at a picture and trying to link that to an event, I am looking at an event (The notion that someone may have taught Minato S/T) and thus finding someone who FITS that event. You may say "Seeing him actually be around TObirama would make things better and more believable" and I agree with that, but the way I came to him being the person I was looking for has nothing to do with a picture or things like that. It is based on the fact that he fits the bill.

2) Sasuke has snake and hawk summons. Naruto, Minato and Jiraiya all have Toad summons. Summons arent something that are clan related neccesarily rather they are something that is passed down. The reason the Inuzuka clan all have Dogs is because the father gives that summon to the son, it gets passed down. But one must wonder who passed down ninja dogs to Kakashi and why we have seen no other hatake's etc... You say it is most certain, I would say it is a nice observation, definatly something to keep in mind, but i wouldnt make the leap to calling it certain, because what walks like a horse and talks like a horse can always turn out to be a zebra.

3) I point it out because I am not oppose to good critism, i love criticism and on multiple occasions I will openly say "You right" and then delete my thread or leave a note at the top saying it is wrong. But thats when I have reason to believe that. Not someone simply disagreeing. And in all honesty that is a very very good peice of information, I will link it at the top so others can see the point it makes.

4) Training one at a time, yes that is very true, extremely true. So I guess you are saying that unlike Naruto Minato was too young to have been trained by multiple peope. But here is the thing, Sakumo died when Naruto was 16. But Naruto is ALSO currently 16 years old in the manga, and he has already been trained by Iruka, Kakashi and Jiraiya not to mention Pa Toad and Yamato. Each of these people trained him in using difference techniques.

5) What you are not getting is that he can have more than 1 teacher. Just like Naruto does

 

[thegame]

1) So again I say that you approach the sitatuation with the notion that we NEED to have seen a picture with someone with TObirama to assume that they had any kind of interaction. But that isnt true, we logically know that he had to have had some kind of interactions with other ninja, the Hokage, if I remember correctly, has to know the name of everybody in the village and know them as well. Now that added to the fact that Sakumo was such a skilled ninja only adds to the fact that Tobirama had to have known him because him being famous only exemplifies what I mentioned above. But one thing you NEED to understand, is again. I am NOT working from start to finish, I am working from finish to start. I am not looking at a picture and trying to link that to an event, I am looking at an event (The notion that someone may have taught Minato S/T) and thus finding someone who FITS that event. You may say "Seeing him actually be around TObirama would make things better and more believable" and I agree with that, but the way I came to him being the person I was looking for has nothing to do with a picture or things like that. It is based on the fact that he fits the bill.

2) Sasuke has snake and hawk summons. Naruto, Minato and Jiraiya all have Toad summons. Summons arent something that are clan related neccesarily rather they are something that is passed down. The reason the Inuzuka clan all have Dogs is because the father gives that summon to the son, it gets passed down. But one must wonder who passed down ninja dogs to Kakashi and why we have seen no other hatake's etc... You say it is most certain, I would say it is a nice observation, definatly something to keep in mind, but i wouldnt make the leap to calling it certain, because what walks like a horse and talks like a horse can always turn out to be a zebra.

3) I point it out because I am not oppose to good critism, i love criticism and on multiple occasions I will openly say "You right" and then delete my thread or leave a note at the top saying it is wrong. But thats when I have reason to believe that. Not someone simply disagreeing. And in all honesty that is a very very good peice of information, I will link it at the top so others can see the point it makes.

4) Training one at a time, yes that is very true, extremely true. So I guess you are saying that unlike Naruto Minato was too young to have been trained by multiple peope. But here is the thing, Sakumo died when Naruto was 16. But Naruto is ALSO currently 16 years old in the manga, and he has already been trained by Iruka, Kakashi and Jiraiya not to mention Pa Toad and Yamato. Each of these people trained him in using difference techniques.

5) What you are not getting is that he can have more than 1 teacher. Just like Naruto does

1) But here is the problem. We have 6 more likely candidates, because we have actually seen them in direct contact with Tobirama in missions and training. Kishi probably hasn't thought of who/how Minato learned Hirashin, since it's irrelevant to the story, but if he suddenly needs to make something up about it, what do you think he will do? Take a random character, with no red line to past events, make Minato having invented it himself, or actually chose a character, who fits into some past event, so that it actually seems legit and plausible to us readers? There is a reason, he chose Tobi as Obito and not some other stupid random Uchiha, that we had absolutely no knowledge about, just to mention the most obvious example.

2) Yet you cannot mention a clan, where 2 people have used different summons, not to mention if they are directly related like father and son, it's highly likely that they would pass on summons. And with Sakumo having the oh so symbolic nickname "the white fang", how is my logic not making sense to you?

3) But this case is impossible with a theory, where it is utterly impossible to make any direct connections from the manga to the subject in the theory.

4) Ahh, so that is what you meant. Well that is always a possibility, yet whenever Minato has referred to a sensei, it was Jiraya. Even when Minato told Obito about Kakashi's father, he didn't call him his sensei or anything. Wouldn't he have done so? Even if you are a hokage, you would still be humble, when referring to your past sensei(s).

 

[FearxDeath]

1) But here is the problem. We have 6 more likely candidates, because we have actually seen them in direct contact with Tobirama in missions and training. Kishi probably hasn't thought of who/how Minato learned Hirashin, since it's irrelevant to the story, but if he suddenly needs to make something up about it, what do you think he will do? Take a random character, with no red line to past events, make Minato having invented it himself, or actually chose a character, who fits into some past event, so that it actually seems legit and plausible to us readers? There is a reason, he chose Tobi as Obito and not some other stupid random Uchiha, that we had absolutely no knowledge about, just to mention the most obvious example.

2) Yet you cannot mention a clan, where 2 people have used different summons, not to mention if they are directly related like father and son, it's highly likely that they would pass on summons. And with Sakumo having the oh so symbolic nickname "the white fang", how is my logic not making sense to you?

3) But this case is impossible with a theory, where it is utterly impossible to make any direct connections from the manga to the subject in the theory.

4) Ahh, so that is what you meant. Well that is always a possibility, yet whenever Minato has referred to a sensei, it was Jiraya. Even when Minato told Obito about Kakashi's father, he didn't call him his sensei or anything. Wouldn't he have done so? Even if you are a hokage, you would still be humble, when referring to your past sensei(s).

1) And once again we come back to the point that Tobirama had to have passed down his technique's to his student. Minato passed down RDS to his students... What your not accepting is the fact that I have gone through his 6 students and non of them met my criteria. If it were one of the 2 members of the elder council then I am sure some indication would have been made about then using the jutsu as they are still alive but more imrpotantly they would be well renown ninja which they are not. If it were Danzo or Hiruzen we would have definatly seen them use it by now. Kagami is a good possibility and was actually the person I was considering at first but their is far too little known about him other than his name. Sakumo was the only famous ninja alive during both Minato and Tobirama's lifetimes, so I took him in as a possibility. After that things started to connect like his relation to kakashi and minato and how they have trained each others sons, etc... Sakumo seems legit, the only reason you claim he doesnt is to support your idea. But so far the only thing unfitting that you have said so far is the fact that he was never seen in the hundreds of pictures we have of Tobirama... That last bit was sarcasm, we have very little information of tobirama. The argument you are making is the exact same argument someone could have made about how Tobirama can not have invented FTG.

2) I just said Sasuke has Snake summons and a hawk summon? The white fang could relate, AGAIN, to his sword which is very short resembling a fang, and glows white when used.

3) Just becuase you say that doesnt make it true. I have draw several connections from Sakumo to Minato. If I say the sky is blue and provide you with pictures and scientific findings, you can easily dismiss them all as not being good enough. And you can say that no clear distinction was made. But saying that doesnt make your statement true. It is merely an opinion.

4) Again, that would be handing it to you on a silver platter... is that what you believe theory making is? I can understand not referring to him when he spoke of S/T users, but going out of his way to call his long dead master "Sensei" when explaining why he commited suicide? Is that what you want him to do or is that what you expect him to do? And to make another comparison I know many occasions when Naruto does not refer to Jiraiya or Kakashi as sensei, but for an even greater example when Orocihmaru first confronts Tsunade, he does not say "I killed Sensei" he says "I killed the 3rd".

 

[thegame]

1) And once again we come back to the point that Tobirama had to have passed down his technique's to his student. Minato passed down RDS to his students... What your not accepting is the fact that I have gone through his 6 students and non of them met my criteria. If it were one of the 2 members of the elder council then I am sure some indication would have been made about then using the jutsu as they are still alive but more imrpotantly they would be well renown ninja which they are not. If it were Danzo or Hiruzen we would have definatly seen them use it by now. Kagami is a good possibility and was actually the person I was considering at first but their is far too little known about him other than his name. Sakumo was the only famous ninja alive during both Minato and Tobirama's lifetimes, so I took him in as a possibility. After that things started to connect like his relation to kakashi and minato and how they have trained each others sons, etc... Sakumo seems legit, the only reason you claim he doesnt is to support your idea. But so far the only thing unfitting that you have said so far is the fact that he was never seen in the hundreds of pictures we have of Tobirama... That last bit was sarcasm, we have very little information of tobirama. The argument you are making is the exact same argument someone could have made about how Tobirama can not have invented FTG.

2) I just said Sasuke has Snake summons and a hawk summon? The white fang could relate, AGAIN, to his sword which is very short resembling a fang, and glows white when used.

3) Just becuase you say that doesnt make it true. I have draw several connections from Sakumo to Minato. If I say the sky is blue and provide you with pictures and scientific findings, you can easily dismiss them all as not being good enough. And you can say that no clear distinction was made. But saying that doesnt make your statement true. It is merely an opinion.

4) Again, that would be handing it to you on a silver platter... is that what you believe theory making is? I can understand not referring to him when he spoke of S/T users, but going out of his way to call his long dead master "Sensei" when explaining why he commited suicide? Is that what you want him to do or is that what you expect him to do? And to make another comparison I know many occasions when Naruto does not refer to Jiraiya or Kakashi as sensei, but for an even greater example when Orocihmaru first confronts Tsunade, he does not say "I killed Sensei" he says "I killed the 3rd".

1) Yet you bias this theory as if we knew all facts about Hirashin. We don't!! So it's just as possible, that you need some special nature type to be able to use Hirashin. What if you need water, and Tobirama taught it to Hiruzen, hoping he could awaken water as his 2nd nature type? And Hiruzen then taught it to Minato. This possibility cannot be denied, because you don't know enough about Hirashin, and thus there are a vast amount of possibilities, meaning your so called "criteria", are irrelevant, because there are other options, making almost any character at the time meet the true criteria. This cannot be denied. And it has been my point the whole time, which is why any shinobi seen with Tobirama meets more criteria, than one that hasn't been seen with him. Besides, there are shinobi, whom we know nothing about, like those 2 in Danzou's team Kagami Uchiha and that dude from Akimichi clan. As you said, a shinobi can teach more students as well, so Tobirama including those 3 in his team for a mission, makes them more likely candidates.

Also suddenly you conclude, that Sakumo was famous during Tobirama's lifetime? He was about same age as Hiruzen, probably a bit younger, on what grounds do you base this? The known facts about Sakumo are a lot older than that, since we know Sasori's age, we know, when he killed his parents, and this was about the same age, that Kakashi was born. Of course Onoki knew him too, but he lived for so long, making anything possible.

2) Rofl... How can you relate a sword to a fang? I can understand it, if he was using 2 swords, then it would make perfect sense, but we have only seen him with 1.

3) Surely, you made connections from Sakumo to Minato (though very vague and unbiased IMO), but nothing to Tobirama, which is what we have been debating.

4) I believe theory making, is to make the most likely theory in relevance with the evidence we have from the manga, and not what makes sense in our mind. I know this is just a fictional story, where anything is possible, yet a theory should at least hold some manga connections to be more of a theory than a fiction.
That is what I would expect him to do, because Kakashi became Jonin at age 7? So it's not really that long, since Sakumo passed away, and Minato if he was 22 at his death, he was probably 21 or 20 at this time.
Oro is different, but he still referred to Hiruzen as his sensei, when they spoke directly. Of course they often refer to them as sensei in direct conversation, compared to, when talking about them to others. But it's obvious, if Kishi planned Sakumo to have been his teacher, he would have shown us some clues, since there is no point in hiding it, and that it's not relevant for the story line anyway.

 

[FearxDeath]

1) Yet you bias this theory as if we knew all facts about Hirashin. We don't!! So it's just as possible, that you need some special nature type to be able to use Hirashin. What if you need water, and Tobirama taught it to Hiruzen, hoping he could awaken water as his 2nd nature type? And Hiruzen then taught it to Minato. This possibility cannot be denied, because you don't know enough about Hirashin, and thus there are a vast amount of possibilities, meaning your so called "criteria", are irrelevant, because there are other options, making almost any character at the time meet the true criteria. This cannot be denied. And it has been my point the whole time, which is why any shinobi seen with Tobirama meets more criteria, than one that hasn't been seen with him. Besides, there are shinobi, whom we know nothing about, like those 2 in Danzou's team Kagami Uchiha and that dude from Akimichi clan. As you said, a shinobi can teach more students as well, so Tobirama including those 3 in his team for a mission, makes them more likely candidates.

Also suddenly you conclude, that Sakumo was famous during Tobirama's lifetime? He was about same age as Hiruzen, probably a bit younger, on what grounds do you base this? The known facts about Sakumo are a lot older than that, since we know Sasori's age, we know, when he killed his parents, and this was about the same age, that Kakashi was born. Of course Onoki knew him too, but he lived for so long, making anything possible.

2) Rofl... How can you relate a sword to a fang? I can understand it, if he was using 2 swords, then it would make perfect sense, but we have only seen him with 1.

3) Surely, you made connections from Sakumo to Minato (though very vague and unbiased IMO), but nothing to Tobirama, which is what we have been debating.

4) I believe theory making, is to make the most likely theory in relevance with the evidence we have from the manga, and not what makes sense in our mind. I know this is just a fictional story, where anything is possible, yet a theory should at least hold some manga connections to be more of a theory than a fiction.
That is what I would expect him to do, because Kakashi became Jonin at age 7? So it's not really that long, since Sakumo passed away, and Minato if he was 22 at his death, he was probably 21 or 20 at this time.
Oro is different, but he still referred to Hiruzen as his sensei, when they spoke directly. Of course they often refer to them as sensei in direct conversation, compared to, when talking about them to others. But it's obvious, if Kishi planned Sakumo to have been his teacher, he would have shown us some clues, since there is no point in hiding it, and that it's not relevant for the story line anyway.

1) Sure, and when information comes out on the Hiraishin that counters what I say them I will admit I was wrong. And also you are right, other people could have been taught, I suggest you make a thread and try to convince people of that fact. As for me I believe it was Sakumo, for reasons listed in my thread.

He was famous as an adult, and was regarded as a Genius, and much like Itachi, Orochimaru, and Sasuke, people who are regarded as Geniuses in their adulthood werent nobodies in their childhood.


2) Fang is singular, Fangs are plural, Dogs have fangs, Dogs do not have fang. So one sword would be called a Fang, 2 swords would be called Fangs. That Fang would then be called white as the blade glows white when used. "White Fang"

3) Sakumo trained Minato, Minato trained Kakashi, Kakashi trained Naruto. I dont understand how this is vague or biased. And again, there is no connection to Tobirama at all, simply because we know nothing of Tobirama. The only thing to go on is the one instance where we see him along with a handful of other students and he choses to sacrifice himself so they can escape, Thats it. Now you seem to be under the idea that "thats enough" and that for this theory to be sound the teacher has to be one of those students, I disagree with that, and again none of them fit the formula. And thus the only criteria surrounding Tobirama would be someone who would have been in contact with him.

4) That is what theory making, but you must understand that evidence to person A is not evidence to person B. You may not be satisfied with the evidence i presented. Im sorry about that, their are other people who were satisfied. I cant please them all all the time. But I dont think I was wrong on this one and personally I think I provide enough sound evidence to lead someone to atleast consider the idea.

At this point I will just agree to disagree as it seems that we flat out cant come to terms on some things.

 

[Rchan81]

Scroll is more likely than Sakumo. Unfortunately, we probably won't get further details in this regard. Making this irrelevant.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Tobirama couldnt have taught Hiruzen FTG because he died before Hiruzen became hokage, essentially taking to jutsu to his grave. And if Hiruzen did know FTG I am sure we would have seen it by now. All hokages have a seal on them and Minato was the 4th. So during the kyubi attack Hiruzen could have S/T'ed to him rather than run around trying to find out what he was doing.

Tobirama was Hiruzen's sensei. There's absolutely no doubt that he was aware of Tobirama's ability to use FTG. Gai's students know he's capable of using the 8 gates. Kakashi's students know he's capable of using the sharingan. Asuma's students know he's capable of using the chakra blades. Minato knew that Jiraiya was capable of using SM(I'm assuming his other students would as well). The list goes on. Hiruzen obviously fought alongside Tobirama in difficult battles, there's no way it can be questioned that he's seen FTG before.

Explaining the fact that Hiruzen hasn't used the FTG. Well, he's hyped as knowing and being able to use all of konoha's jutsus..however, that doesn't mean he's mastered all of konoha's jutsu. There's another way to use FTG outside of Minato and Tobirama doing it by themselves.

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If Hiruzen knew FTG then why wouldnt he use it to leave the barrier created by the sound 4 when they trapped him with Orochimaru.

I've already went over that I doubt Hiruzen could use it by himself, but if you want to base off the assumption that he can:

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, as he was wanting to take on Orochimaru 1v1. The reason he didn't attempt to break the once Hashirama and Tobirama was summoned was simple. While it wasn't stated, I think common sense dictates if this fight isn't contained, the village would get destroyed, and on top of this fact, Hiruzen was the ONLY person in the village, at that time, strong enough to fight any of the 3 opponents. This on top of Kabuto, Baki and the numerous sound ninja being there as well, so it's not like the jounin of Konoha could all join in, they had other responsibilities. Jiraiya did not arrive in the village until Hiruzen was already sealing Orochimaru's arms, so as far as Hiruzen was concerned, Jiraiya wasn't in the village. Thus, he can keep the fight contained and take out all 3 without anyone else getting hurt. His number one priority as hokage was to keep the people of his village safe. He kept that priority til his death.

Why would Hiruzen teach it to Minato? According to the handbook his own students Orochimaru, Tsunade and Jiraiya graduated from the Academy at age 6. Minato graduated at age 10. What was so special about Minato that he would chose him AT RANDOM to teach the FTG rather than Orochimaru, he beloved genius student.

Hiruzen only being capable of the Genma-type of FTG is one explanation. The second explanation is maybe he didn't feel the technique suited his 3 students? Maybe it's because they all took interest in their own way of developing in to powerful/useful ninja. Calling Minato just some random guy he picked is awfully weird of you to say considering Minato was a hokage candidate in his teens/early 20s. Despite his academy age, he was clearly a genius with extraordinary skill. You don't become a hokage at that young of an age otherwise.

If Hiruzen had the scrolls left by Tobirama then how does Orochimaru know Edo? I heard someone say that he may have learned it by... examining Tobirama's dead body... but we see the scroll of Edo Tensie in Orochimaru's secret hideout. Which is why Sasuke Revived him.

Not sure what you're asking here..you seem to answer your own question. Orochimaru was quite plainly stated as doing illegal/forbidden research, even while he was still in Konoha.

Not only that but the idea that Hiruzen teaches Minato FTG via a scroll is also LESS LIKELY
than mine. Because of a scientific theory called "Occams Razor" - which basically means when you have 2 competing theories, the theory that makes the least amount of assumptions is the more likely theory.

Assumptions my theory makes:

Sakumo had to have been well known and powerful, deserving of the lore of S/T Jutsu. [Proven]
Sakumo had to have known Minato, preferably known him well. [Proven]
Sakumo had to have been old enough to know Tobirama and young enough to know Minato. [Proven]
Tobirama knew Sakumo [Assumed since Tobirama was Hokage he would have known someone as skilled as Sakumo]
Proof that Tobirama taught Sakumo FTG [Unproven]
Proof that Sakumo taught Minato FTG [Unproven]

Sakumo being well known and powerful does nothing to connect him to FTG. The list of people who don't use FTG/an advanced form of S/T that is extremely powerful dwarfs the list of the ones who do.

Sakumo probably knew him. Knew him well? That's questionable. Jiraiya was Minato's sensei. We haven't seen very many close relationships between a younger ninja and a jounin/sensei that wasn't their sensei to begin with. Ino-Shika-Cho obviously cares a lot for Kakashi, especially since he voluntarily assisted in avenging Asuma's death, but he's yet to tutor them in anything. The most notable cases of this are the Sannin taking on their students, but that's really about it.

The student/sensei thing comes up again for Tobirama/Sakumo. Why would Tobirama teach Sakumo FTG?

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. No reason for Tobirama to teach him FTG, nor has there been any connection between the two outside of the fact that Sakumo knew him. Everyone in the village knew Tobirama. He was the hokage.

Tobirama created an FTG Scroll [Can be assumed since he also created an Edo Scroll but still is not proven]
Upon his death Tobirama had the FTG Scroll in a different location than the Edo Scroll so that when Orochimaru stole the Edo Scroll he did not also take the FTG Scroll. [Not only is it unlikely but it too is unproven]
Hiruzen managed to get the FTG Scroll but he himself could not use it. [Unproven]
Hiruzen then taught Minato, for no particular reason, FTG. [Unproven]
Hiruzen would have seen no one else to want to teach FTG to other than Minato. [Unproven]



Now I can continue to nitpick at the other theory but I think this is more than enough to show that My theory is more likely as it makes less assumptions and the assumptions that it does make are alleviated by other evidences like Sakumo knowing Minato, and him being incredibly famous and powerful, more so than the Sannin.

And with that we see that by using Occam's Razor my theory is more likely than the unseen scroll theory as it makes less assumptions.

Hiruzen would have had the scrolls for 30 or so years prior to Orochimaru stealing them. So even if Orochimaru may have stole some of the scrolls Tobirama wrote(and he clearly didn't steal them all, as we find out in the very first chapter of the manga), Hiruzen still had 30 years to learn from them, if he didn't learn with Tobirama when he was his student.

Hiruzen teaching Minato the FTG could have been because of his incredible speed in base. Maybe he felt it would pair well with his other abilities. Maybe it's also because Minato had shown great prowess in S/T jutsu. Could be a number of reasons.

The FTG is clearly a very difficult technique to use. You can't just teach it to anyone you please. It took 3 special jounin, all 30 or so years old and had known the technique since they were in their late teens/early 20s, given that would have to be their timeline considering how long ago Minato died, working together to pull it off. If they, in 10+ years, couldn't master the technique to use it by themselves, you think it's some walk in the park for people to use? Obviously it's not.

I don't fully believe Hiruzen taught Minato the FTG(due to his version being the imperfect one). Just giving the argument of how it would have been possible. It is most likely that Hiruzen gave Minato access to the scrolls to learn/or gave him the information from the scrolls to learn it.