[FEAR] Infinite Tsukuyomi Analysis PT2: Obito's Foreshadowing

[OopsWrongHole]

Hey after explaining, you never did tell me your verdict after explaining the brain connection to the eyes etc

 

[Mr Hiru]

Obvious type-o is obvious, prob shouldnt have wasted time stating the above.




Sigh, explain to me how grafting and property inheritance works in this sitaution. Do not link me somewhere else, type and explain it to me in full detail so I can understand.




Let me try to explain this in a different way so that you understand it -__-

1) Tobirama never said that the eye had to be connected with the nervous system, those are words you are putting in his mouth. The only thing he says is that Chakra develops in the Uchiha's brain and this chakra effects the optical nerves. How this connection is made has not be stated yet. For all we know it could be connected the same way the Uchiha is connected to Susan'o...

2) You say that Kakashi's Sharingan was not powered by Uchiha Chakra when it was awakened, that is irrelevant, the Chakra it is powered by is not what awakens it, rather it is the connection to the Sharingan and the Chakra within the Brain of the Uchiha that it came from.

Let me try to explain it this way, when an Uchiha experiences despair the Chakra in their brains change, and this change is reflected in their eyes. So if their eye was removed and a 1 Tomie was inserted, would it then reflect their Brain Chakra and change into an MS? No, it would remain a 1 Tomie even though the Brain of the Uchiha it is currently in reflects that of an MS...

3) So it is more reasonable to believe that the Sharingan has some kind of innate Rinnegan ability to share vision rather than simply believe you are wrong? From now on when you say something is stated in the manga, dont paraphrase, instead qoute exactly what was said by the person in the manga. As what you claim he says and what he says are 2 completely different things and its frustrating to argue in circles...

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see images

As I said, I'm starting to be convinced by the argument you gave, but this IS still an asspull. The Uchiha Brain "must" be connected to the Eye to fulfill the requirement of awakening.

Kakashi's Sharingan Optical Nerve was not connected to Obito's Brain. Obito must sprout chakra from his brain and transfer this special chakra to the Sharingan so it can evolve...

As much, they shared vision, but the chakra in their eyes were from their eyes, not from Obito's brain...

So please, don't make repeat myself...

 

[FearxDeath]

You must be registered for see links

As I said, I'm starting to be convinced by the argument you gave, but this IS still an asspull. The Uchiha Brain "must" be connected to the Eye to fulfill the requirement of awakening.

WHAT ARGUMENT! Jesus Christ... All you are doing is avoiding the question and refusing the qoute Tobirama, I ask you to tell me how what he says reflects what you are saying and you link me to a scan. I say then scan 4 times, it does not reflect what you are saying...

I am going to try to make this very simple:

In the situation with Obito vs Kakashi the question we are left with is whether or not kakashi activated the eye himself or whether Obito activated it in proxy. Now the later seems the most evident because:

1) We know Obito was there at Rins Death
2) We know that Obito his Sharingan which was in kakashi's possession were connected at the time.
3) We have never seen anyone other than an Uchiha awaken higher levels of the Sharingan.

Now there is a very important concept known as Occams Razor, basically what it means is that when you have 2 competing theories the simpler one, or the one that makes the least amount of assumptions, is the more likely theory.

For instance, if you are debating how a person got here. If one person says he drove, and another says he is really a spy and flew here after coming from the hospital where he was nursing his spy injuries. Then the first is the more likely theory as it requires less assumptions.

Now in regards to the 1, 2 and 3 I typed up earlier. Our theories are exactly the same more or less, the only difference is that yours has an added assumption, which is that people who are not born Uchiha can infact awaken higher levels of the Sharingan. And thus by Occams Razor your is less likely.

Now with that said a topic you seem to be caught up on the what Tobirama says, which is weird to me because I have read, and re-read what he says and you are coming to a conclusion that does not reflect his words. In regards to the Sharingan he says this:

"When Uchiha suffer after experiencing the loss of a loved one or despair, a special chakra sprouts inside their brains, which affects the optic nerve and produces the change their eyes... The deeper their darkness becomes, the more powerful the eyes get"

Now based on this we know 2 things, the Sharnigans are a reflection of the Chakra within the brains of the Uchiha, which is powered by despair. The deeper the despair becomes, [the more powerful the chakra becomes], and thus the more powerful their eyes become. But the common factor is always the Special chakra found within the Uchiha's brain.

Now for someone who is not an Uchiha to also awaken a higher level of the Sharingan with their darkness, they too must have special chakra within their brains. But we know they do not because only Uchiha have that... I really truly want to understand your argument? Am I missing something here or am I just crazy? What is it your are arguing?

 

[Mr Hiru]

WHAT ARGUMENT! Jesus Christ... All you are doing is avoiding the question and refusing the qoute Tobirama, I ask you to tell me how what he says reflects what you are saying and you link me to a scan. I say then scan 4 times, it does not reflect what you are saying...

I am going to try to make this very simple:

In the situation with Obito vs Kakashi the question we are left with is whether or not kakashi activated the eye himself or whether Obito activated it in proxy. Now the later seems the most evident because:

1) We know Obito was there at Rins Death
2) We know that Obito his Sharingan which was in kakashi's possession were connected at the time.
3) We have never seen anyone other than an Uchiha awaken higher levels of the Sharingan.

Now there is a very important concept known as Occams Razor, basically what it means is that when you have 2 competing theories the simpler one, or the one that makes the least amount of assumptions, is the more likely theory.

For instance, if you are debating how a person got here. If one person says he drove, and another says he is really a spy and flew here after coming from the hospital where he was nursing his spy injuries. Then the first is the more likely theory as it requires less assumptions.

Now in regards to the 1, 2 and 3 I typed up earlier. Our theories are exactly the same more or less, the only difference is that yours has an added assumption, which is that people who are not born Uchiha can infact awaken higher levels of the Sharingan. And thus by Occams Razor your is less likely.

Now with that said a topic you seem to be caught up on the what Tobirama says, which is weird to me because I have read, and re-read what he says and you are coming to a conclusion that does not reflect his words. In regards to the Sharingan he says this:

"When Uchiha suffer after experiencing the loss of a loved one or despair, a special chakra sprouts inside their brains, which affects the optic nerve and produces the change their eyes... The deeper their darkness becomes, the more powerful the eyes get"

Now based on this we know 2 things, the Sharnigans are a reflection of the Chakra within the brains of the Uchiha, which is powered by despair. The deeper the despair becomes, [the more powerful the chakra becomes], and thus the more powerful their eyes become. But the common factor is always the Special chakra found within the Uchiha's brain.

Now for someone who is not an Uchiha to also awaken a higher level of the Sharingan with their darkness, they too must have special chakra within their brains. But we know they do not because only Uchiha have that... I really truly want to understand your argument? Am I missing something here or am I just crazy? What is it your are arguing?

And that's your main flaw. The sharingan is not a reflection of the chakra within the brain of the uchiha, it's the reflection of the chakra within the brain of the current user.

If your statement were true, Kakashi could use his sharingan using Obito's chakra... but he uses his own chakra.

Logical proof:

a) Shisui is dead
b) Danzou had Shisui's Eye
c) Ao detected Shisui's chakra in Danzou's Sharingan
d) Shisui's Chakra is the result of the Optical Nerves on Shisui's Eye that has part of Shisui's Chakra Network (Now you understand why I was so emphatic with the grafting?).

Conclusion: The chakra and the sharingan is not linked to the original owner, since that person is dead.

The evolution of the mangekyo (said by Tobirama) is done when the user of the sharingan sprouts special chakra from the brain, AND THIS CHAKRA affects the optical nerve.

The "reflection" is another excuse to make your statement conveniently valid, but that has never been said. Chakra is not replicated, it traverses through time and space. That's how the chakra flow system works, that's what the Hyuuga have been showing us thoughout the entire series!

---

Oh yes... I doubt Tobirama could assure that the brain sprouting the chakra had to be Uchiha "as a must", since there is no proof assuring that he met someone with transplanted Sharingans. But, in the manga he states that for an Uchiha, this is the way it works. So let's not get too spiky on this detail.

 

[FearxDeath]

And that's your main flaw. The sharingan is not a reflection of the chakra within the brain of the uchiha, it's the reflection of the chakra within the brain of the current user.

If your statement were true, Kakashi could use his sharingan using Obito's chakra... but he uses his own chakra.

The evolution of the mangekyo (said by Tobirama) is done when the user of the sharingan sprouts special chakra from the brain, AND THIS CHAKRA affects the optical nerve.

The "reflection" is another excuse to make your statement conveniently valid, but that has never been said. Chakra is not replicated, it traverses through time and space. That's how the chakra flow system works, that's what the Hyuuga have been showing us thoughout the entire series!

NOW I UNDERSTAND!!! Thank god, I was beginning to hate you, I thought you were just being ignorant, but you do atleast have a sensible argument, wrong, but atleast it makes sense.

Now we have this scan:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Now first off Tobirama says this "Special Chakra sprouts inside their brains, which affects their optic nerves and produces a change in their eyes." With this we see that it is the Special Chakra within their brains that causes changes within the eyes, not the "optic nerve." If it was the optic nerve then he would haev said "which affects their optic nerves which produces a change in their eyes." The wording here is key.

But more importantly when you say "Obito must sprout chakra from his brain and transfer this special chakra to the Sharingan so it can evolve..." You MUST realize that the manga merely states the the Chakra within the brain affects both the Optical Nerve and the Eye. It says nothing about the trasnfer of special chakra to the sharingan so it can evolve, it only states that one affects the other.

"When you said "perspective" I understood way better what you tried to say. But even so it is not proof of the eye being connected to the user brain as Tobirama stated." Keep in mind that again no where does it say that the eye must be connected to the brain. It merely says that the Special Chakra within the brain affects the optic nerve and the eye, nowhere does it mention a physical connection.

Not only that but we must consider how the eye changes in regards to the Uchiha's emotions, how could the eye know what the user is feeling? It makes sense when you are considering a Special Chakra that is found within the brain itself, which is also responsible for dealing with emotions, causes the change.

On top of which I want you to look at 2 pictures:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

One is the picture of the eye and how it connects to the Optic nerve and optic tract, the next is a picture of the Amygdala which just so happens to run right next to the optic tract and also just happens to deal with emotion. Also keep in mind that for someone to remove the entire optic nerve one would have to get inside of the brain, it is pretty much impossible to remove the entire optic nerve without doing this.

Now you said this "3) The nerves that connects the eyes to the brain are from the original owner of the eyes, so it's quite possible that the chakra flow system in that nervous portion was from the original user too, so in fact, that part of the chakra flow system produced the original owner's chakra. It just makes sense." In regards to the following scan.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Now there are 2 things you need to understand in regards to your assumption.

1) Danzo had Orochimaru expirement on him in order to find ways to extend the limitations of Izangi, this would explain why not only Shishui's eye but also places where he had spares eyes that were not from Shishui, all displayed Shishui's eye color. If it was as you said then why didnt each individual eye produces their on respective color. If you also looked you will see that on Danzo's arm is a face of something, it is likely that whatever this thing is that happens to be composed of Hashirama's DNA is emitting or creating the Shishui's Chakra. [

You must be registered for see links

]

2) Chakra itself is not created by any "Chakra Flow System" found in specific areas of the body or anything like that. Chakra is produced when a person mixes their internal energies with their external energies which creates Chakra. Individual organs and/or optic nerves do not produce chakra, it may be possible for them to retain chakra, but not produce it.