[FEAR] Infinite Tsukuyomi Analysis PT2: Obito's Foreshadowing

Kashi1409

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Arrogance?!
U serious bro???

Read it again ô.o

That would mean sasuke does not loose chakra if he is using his sharingan?
I dont think this is how it works...
I mean the sharingan is a jutsu every jutsu costs chakra
And if its not your own sharingan u cant control it like its your own
U cant deactivate it as far as i know
 

FearxDeath

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Arrogance?!
U serious bro???

Read it again ô.o

That would mean sasuke does not loose chakra if he is using his sharingan?
I dont think this is how it works...
I mean the sharingan is a jutsu every jutsu costs chakra
And if its not your own sharingan u cant control it like its your own
U cant deactivate it as far as i know

Here is how your argument falls apart on itself.

A) All Jutsu cost chakra
B) Therefore the Sharingan, which is a doujutsu, cost Chakra.
c) We know that all jutsu does not cost chakra because Taijutsu and Kinjutsu does not cost Chakra.
D) Therefore the initial premise has self destructed.

This is qouted from the Wiki, which isnt always a great source but in this case it input is helpful.

"Although the Sharingan consumes the user's chakra while active, the amount of chakra that the user must exert is so insignificant that they can keep it active constantly. In fact, Itachi Uchiha was so masterful with the Sharingan that he was able to keep it active for most of the time, only once deactivating it after using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and Kakashi, as well as Amaterasu to escape Jiraiya, due to exhaustion. However, when a Sharingan is transplanted to a non-Uchiha, the chakra drain is significant, leading them to cover it up when not in use. This seems to be circumvented by acquiring Senju cells in order to boost their vitality"

The only thing a person with a stolen Sharingan cannot do is de-activate it and upgrade it, as in from 3 Tomie to MS etc... other than that they can do anything with the Sharingan.
 

Mr Hiru

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The only thing a person with a stolen Sharingan cannot do is de-activate it and upgrade it, as in from 3 Tomie to MS etc... other than that they can do anything with the Sharingan.

Be careful here, Kakashi got the Kamui at same time as Obito with Rin's death.
 

FearxDeath

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Be careful here, Kakashi got the Kamui at same time as Obito with Rin's death.

Ah, but only because Obito was their, if Obito had no been their then Kakashi would not have gotten MS from that situation. Which leads us to believe that the 2 eyes remain linked in someway even if they are transplanted. But the point you make is a good one, ill be more modest with my statements in the future.
 

Mr Hiru

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Ah, but only because Obito was their, if Obito had no been their then Kakashi would not have gotten MS from that situation. Which leads us to believe that the 2 eyes remain linked in someway even if they are transplanted. But the point you make is a good one, ill be more modest with my statements in the future.

We don't have much information about this, I'm just stating what I saw in that chapter. "From the moment that eye was transplanted it wasn't Obito's anymore, they only shared the ability". Tobirama explained that the Sharingan was a doujutsu connected to the user's brain through the neural system... so as Kakashi's Sharingan was not connected to Obito's brain, this evolution couldn't be possible under your statement.

Ergo, Sharingan's Evolution Trigger is linked to the current user experience, but the ability is linked to the original owner.

Anyways, I don't see this as something very relevant... the thing is that I agree with everything else you said XD.
 

thegame

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Yeah I think you got a solid theory here, however, I do see some complications with it. Here is the databook on the 3rd eye:

Daisan no Me
Databook 1 p.207

Daisan translation
NINJUTSU; Daisan no Me (The Third Eye)
User: Gaara
Supplementary; Rank: none

Main text

A peculiar ninjutsu of Gaara's. With chakra, he connects a sand-made eye to his optic nerve, which enables him to know what happens in the sand eye's field of vision. This is genuinely a third eye for its caster.

We know that Gaara has some special sand, which is connected to him by chakra. How would Obito connect the moon to his optic nerves to perform the IT? Even if he has the powers of the SO6P, that doesn't mean he can use any jutsu. Gaara is rather special after all.
 

FearxDeath

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We don't have much information about this, I'm just stating what I saw in that chapter. "From the moment that eye was transplanted it wasn't Obito's anymore, they only shared the ability". Tobirama explained that the Sharingan was a doujutsu connected to the user's brain through the neural system... so as Kakashi's Sharingan was not connected to Obito's brain, this evolution couldn't be possible under your statement.

Ergo, Sharingan's Evolution Trigger is linked to the current user experience, but the ability is linked to the original owner.

Anyways, I don't see this as something very relevant... the thing is that I agree with everything else you said XD.

Some good points you have made but let me rebuttle with scans :p

1) I have a scan of Madara blatently saying that you need 2 Sharingans to awaken its true potential and that alas he only has 1. Now he couldnt have meant the Rinnegan else he would have added the part about Senju DNA, thus we can assume he is talking about awakening MS and upgrading the Sharingan.

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2) Secondly below is a scan of Obito as he is heading over to save Rin and Kakashi, as he gets closer we can blatently see him grabbing his other eye socket, the one where his transplanted eye once was, and then seeing a vision of Rin face, the thing kakashi was looking at, prior to him arriving, this alone proves that there is still a connection between the 2 Sharingans even once transplanted, thus we can assume that kakashi's sharingan was activated in proxy due to the fact that Obito was their and nearby.

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3) And lastly we have a scan of AO looking at Danzo and saying that the Chakra in his eye is the same as Shishui Uchiha, shows that the Chakra of the original Uchiha lingers on within the eye.

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HOLY CRAP YOU GUYS ARE FREAKIN GENUISES, THANKS GAME AND THANKS HIDO, YOU GUYS JUST INSPIRED MY NEXT THREAD IN THIS SERIES, AND ITS GONNA BE AWESOME!
 
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FearxDeath

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Yeah I think you got a solid theory here, however, I do see some complications with it. Here is the databook on the 3rd eye:

Daisan no Me
Databook 1 p.207

Daisan translation
NINJUTSU; Daisan no Me (The Third Eye)
User: Gaara
Supplementary; Rank: none

Main text

A peculiar ninjutsu of Gaara's. With chakra, he connects a sand-made eye to his optic nerve, which enables him to know what happens in the sand eye's field of vision. This is genuinely a third eye for its caster.

We know that Gaara has some special sand, which is connected to him by chakra. How would Obito connect the moon to his optic nerves to perform the IT? Even if he has the powers of the SO6P, that doesn't mean he can use any jutsu. Gaara is rather special after all.

This is a really good question which will be answered in my next thread as oppose to here, thanks again, you and hido's replies are always the most thought provoking.
 

Mr Hiru

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Some good points you have made but let me rebuttle with scans :p

1) I have a scan of Madara blatently saying that you need 2 Sharingans to awaken its true potential and that alas he only has 1. Now he couldnt have meant the Rinnegan else he would have added the part about Senju DNA, thus we can assume he is talking about awakening MS and upgrading the Sharingan.

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2) Secondly below is a scan of Obito as he is heading over to save Rin and Kakashi, as he gets closer we can blatently see him grabbing his other eye socket, the one where his transplanted eye once was, and then seeing a vision of Rin face, the thing kakashi was looking at, prior to him arriving, this alone proves that there is still a connection between the 2 Sharingans even once transplanted, thus we can assume that kakashi's sharingan was activated in proxy due to the fact that Obito was their and nearby.

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3) And lastly we have a scan of AO looking at Danzo and saying that the Chakra in his eye is the same as Shishui Uchiha, shows that the Chakra of the original Uchiha lingers on within the eye.

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HOLY CRAP YOU GUYS ARE FREAKIN GENUISES, THANKS GAME AND THANKS HIDO, YOU GUYS JUST INSPIRED MY NEXT THREAD IN THIS SERIES, AND ITS GONNA BE AWESOME!

1) The true potential of the sharingan (two-eyes techique) is not referred to the basic mangekyo awakened skill, in which case Sasuke was Amaterasu and a weaker version of Tsukuyomi, while Itachi's was Tsukuyomi and a weaker version of Amaterasu. The true potential is referred to the technique that needs two eyes to be executed, this is, Susano'o. It isn't referred to the awakening of the Mangekyo.

2) By the way, show the rest of story... it's not like Obito and Kakashi were interconnected through eyes, it's just that Obito saw Rin die with "his own" mangekyo... here:


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And after this...


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So in the end it was just a traumatic experienced that forced the user's brain to awake the mangekyo. As I said... it was very well explained by Tobirama.

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3) The nerves that connects the eyes to the brain are from the original owner of the eyes, so it's quite possible that the chakra flow system in that nervous portion was from the original user too, so in fact, that part of the chakra flow system produced the original owner's chakra. It just makes sense.
 

FearxDeath

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1) The true potential of the sharingan (two-eyes techique) is not referred to the basic mangekyo awakened skill, in which case Sasuke was Amaterasu and a weaker version of Tsukuyomi, while Itachi's was Tsukuyomi and a weaker version of Amaterasu. The true potential is referred to the technique that needs two eyes to be executed, this is, Susano'o. It isn't referred to the awakening of the Mangekyo.

2) By the way, show the rest of story... it's not like Obito and Kakashi were interconnected through eyes, it's just that Obito saw Rin die with "his own" mangekyo... here:


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And after this...


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So in the end it was just a traumatic experienced that forced the user's brain to awake the mangekyo. As I said... it was very well explained by Tobirama.

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3) The nerves that connects the eyes to the brain are from the original owner of the eyes, so it's quite possible that the chakra flow system in that nervous portion was from the original user too, so in fact, that part of the chakra flow system produced the original owner's chakra. It just makes sense.

LOL I dont know how your still arguing this.

1) On your first assumption i must admit that too is possible, but then we must ask what is most likely, the idea that Madara was talking about how one cannot upgrade the eye without having both eyes, or the possibility that we randomly started talking about the Susan'o. Not to mention that while he said this his Sharingan was in 3T form, which implies that the Sharingan he has could not reach MS level because he didnt have the other pair.

2) You said this "From the moment that eye was transplanted it wasn't Obito's anymore, they only shared the ability", Yet I showed you a scan here Obito could still see through the Sharingan that was implanted into Kakashi, which suggest that it was still connected to him.

You bring up Tobirama but ignore the fact that he specifically says this "When an Uchiha suffer after experiencing the loss of a loved one or despair, special chakra sprout within their brain which effects the optic nerve and produces the change in their eyes." And thus we see that the Sharingan is a reflection of the chakra within a Uchiha's Brain. This is further proven by the fact that Shishui's Chakra remained in his eye that Danzo had even though he had been killed atleast 10 years prior.

Long story short the connection between the Uchiha and his eyes remain even after the eye is transplanted. This alone is enough is more than enough prove to show that the Sharingan more than likely arouse from the fact that Obito saw Rin die and that Kakashi being there was also neccesary as the eye needed to be close to Obito to be activated, but kakashi looking at Rin had nothing to do with the activation.

3) The talk about Chakra flow is moot, the Sharingans abilities come from the Chakra found within the Uchiha's brains, which grows in power as the Uchiha grows in despair. Moving the eye does not move the brain. But if the eye is close enough to the brain then it can still grow from the chakra found within the brain, even if it isnt attached to an Uchiha.
 

Mr Hiru

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LOL I dont know how your still arguing this.

1) On your first assumption i must admit that too is possible, but then we must ask what is most likely, the idea that Madara was talking about how one cannot upgrade the eye without having both eyes, or the possibility that we randomly started talking about the Susan'o. Not to mention that while he said this his Sharingan was in 3T form, which implies that the Sharingan he has could not reach MS level because he didnt have the other pair.

2) You said this "From the moment that eye was transplanted it wasn't Obito's anymore, they only shared the ability", Yet I showed you a scan here Obito could still see through the Sharingan that was implanted into Kakashi, which suggest that it was still connected to him.

You bring up Tobirama but ignore the fact that he specifically says this "When an Uchiha suffer after experiencing the loss of a loved one or despair, special chakra sprout within their brain which effects the optic nerve and produces the change in their eyes." And thus we see that the Sharingan is a reflection of the chakra within a Uchiha's Brain. This is further proven by the fact that Shishui's Chakra remained in his eye that Danzo had even though he had been killed atleast 10 years prior.

Long story short the connection between the Uchiha and his eyes remain even after the eye is transplanted. This alone is enough is more than enough prove to show that the Sharingan more than likely arouse from the fact that Obito saw Rin die and that Kakashi being there was also neccesary as the eye needed to be close to Obito to be activated, but kakashi looking at Rin had nothing to do with the activation.

3) The talk about Chakra flow is moot, the Sharingans abilities come from the Chakra found within the Uchiha's brains, which grows in power as the Uchiha grows in despair. Moving the eye does not move the brain. But if the eye is close enough to the brain then it can still grow from the chakra found within the brain, even if it isnt attached to an Uchiha.

1) There are many ways to see these things as they are kept open, so yours can be true too.

2) Sadly, you only shown the end of chapter 604, but not chapter 605 (my images were from chapter 605). Obito saw Rin's death with his own eyes, not with Kakashi's eyes.

Please understand... Kakashi's lend Sharingan was not connected to Obito's Brain, so there was no way Obito could awake Kakashi's eyes, since Tobirama explicitely stated that this awakening was only possible when the user's brain was connected to the eye. If your logic were true (and you took the fact stated by Tobirama), then only Obito's sharingan would evolve to its Mangekyo stage. This said, Tobirama's mentioning the Uchiha was irrelevant... the important thing was the user that had the Sharingan.

PS: Pink note... did you know neural network system evolves with the flow of time? From the moment Kakashi recieved a Sharingan, his brain became part of the Uchiha too. This quite works like Madara manipulating Hashirama's DNA.

3) Ao sensed Uchiha chakra in Danzou's eye, you told it. This means part of Danzou's neural system and chakra flow system was Uchiha too, due my pink note.
 

FearxDeath

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1) There are many ways to see these things as they are kept open, so yours can be true too.

2) Sadly, you only shown the end of chapter 604, but not chapter 605 (my images were from chapter 605). Obito saw Rin's death with his own eyes, not with Kakashi's eyes.

Please understand... Kakashi's lend Sharingan was not connected to Obito's Brain, so there was no way Obito could awake Kakashi's eyes, since Tobirama explicitely stated that this awakening was only possible when the user's brain was connected to the eye. If your logic were true (and you took the fact stated by Tobirama), then only Obito's sharingan would evolve to its Mangekyo stage. This said, Tobirama's mentioning the Uchiha was irrelevant... the important thing was the user that had the Sharingan.

PS: Pink note... did you know neural network system evolves with the flow of time? From the moment Kakashi recieved a Sharingan, his brain became part of the Uchiha too. This quite works like Madara manipulating Hashirama's DNA.

3) Ao sensed Uchiha chakra in Danzou's eye, you told it. This means part of Danzou's neural system and chakra flow system was Uchiha too, due my pink note.

1) Here is the thing you keep missing about what I am saying about Obito seeing Rin.

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We clearly see Obito see the vision of Rin dying, suspiciously from Kakashi's perspective, BEFORE he even gets out of the forest. He even says "Whats this" "Dont imagine weird things" "Almost there, Im almost there". Now this is the PROOF that Obito and the Sharingan that Kakahsi had were connected at that time. And it is because of that connection that Kakashi's sharingan was activated... I dont understand how you are arguing against this, please elaborate a bit more in your next point because im a bit confused.

And for your sidenote, you could apply that same logic to today. If I get a kidney trasnplant from a guy named john do I adapt and become part john? No, I end up taking anti boitics for the rest of my life to keep my immune system from rejecting the kidney...

2) Your pink note is wrong.

*I hope im not coming off as angry or aggressive, I am just passionate.*
 

Mr Hiru

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1) Here is the thing you keep missing about what I am saying about Obito seeing Rin.

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We clearly see Obito see the vision of Rin dying, suspiciously from Kakashi's perspective, BEFORE he even gets out of the forest. He even says "Whats this" "Dont imagine weird things" "Almost there, Im almost there". Now this is the PROOF that Obito and the Sharingan that Kakahsi had were connected at that time. And it is because of that connection that Kakashi's sharingan was activated... I dont understand how you are arguing against this, please elaborate a bit more in your next point because im a bit confused.

And for your sidenote, you could apply that same logic to today. If I get a kidney trasnplant from a guy named john do I adapt and become part john? No, I end up taking anti boitics for the rest of my life to keep my immune system from rejecting the kidney...

2) Your pink note is wrong.

*I hope im not coming off as angry or aggressive, I am just passionate.*



You need to see that.

---

When you said "perspective" I understood way better what you tried to say. But even so it is not proof of the eye being connected to the user brain as Tobirama stated.

PS: Please, even Madara eyes changed when his genoma structure changed. He became a completely different entity when extern DNA was inserted into him.
 
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FearxDeath

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You need to see that.

---

When you said "perspective" I understood way better what you tried to say. But even so it is not proof of the eye being connected to the user brain as Tobirama stated.

PS: Please, even Madara eyes changed when his genoma structure changed. He became a completely different entity when extern DNA was inserted into him.

Are you kidding me? Then explain how that is not proof that the eye was connect to Obito.. How can you deny this.

A) Obito saw what Kakashi was seeing, Rins Death.
B) Obito was not physically close enough to be able to see that, this is backed up by him saying, "Whats this" and "Just a bit closer im almost there".
C) Therefore, Kakashi's Sharingan that was Originally Obito's was still connected to him.

The reason it may have took longer for the MS to awaken was because it took time for the Sharingan to fully connect with the brain. If you check the images you see that Rins face starts off from being completely blacked out then slowly becomes more and more visible which reflects the eye's connection with Obito becoming stronger... Im not going to break this down any further, i think your being argumentative -__-


Btw, Grafting is for plants, this proccess does not happen in humans because humans have this thing called an immune system... Look at this, this is the same reason someone who has a B+ blood type cannot give blood or transplant an organ to someone who is A+, because it would be rejected immediantly, the more alike the organs are the less likely rejection will happen, but even with the same blood type and other similarities rejection is still always possible because the organs are not the same on a cellular level. Hence why immunorepresents, not antiboitics as I said before idk what i was thinking, are required to surpress the immune system to keep it from noticing the difference, else it treats the transplant as an infections dangerous material and tries to kill it... Long story short, the neural network does not adapt and "become" whatever is inserted into it...



The thing about Madara, im a bit tired to chase this one down, anyway you can provide a scan?
 

OopsWrongHole

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I'm very much enjoying both of your passionate discussions. However Narutoverse doesn't specifically follow full reality does it. I understand both of you & both the valid points you two are making.

Hirudora you are using facts from both the manga & our own medical reality to do with the eyes, however I would disregard our own reality because sometimes... Narutoverse just does not follow this =D

FearxDeath is also using facts from the manga. I am more swayed to his side of the argument due to FearxDeath explanations. Kakashi Sharingan is still connected to Obito brain, from FearxDeath explanations & the manga itself, showing Obito saw through Kakashi Sharingan.

I do not know if this was due to the fact that Obito was close to Kakashi. In the Narutoverse we do not know if the actual Sharingan has to be physically attached to it's original user, for the Original user to still be able to have some sort of connection with the Sharingan. We don't know if there is a distance limit, whether Obito was only able to tap into Kakashi eye because they were so close? Kishi has not explained this! We do not know whether Kakashi unlocked the Sharingan to it's MS stage through his own emotional trauma or due to Obito emotional trauma.

Has Tobirama said about emotional trauma or losing a loved one unlocks a special chakra from the brain that travels from the brain to the optic nerve. However this is a Uchiha brain problem lol not a normal person problem, since Kakashi emotional trauma wouldn't unlock special brain chakra the Uchihas do, for MS to unlock for him. So in my opinion that is another way to prove Kakashi Sharingan is still connected to Obito brain because his special brain chakra must of traveled to Kakashi Sharingan too, to unlock MS.

This is my opinion anyway, not saying it's a fact :cool:
 

Mr Hiru

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I'm very much enjoying both of your passionate discussions. However Narutoverse doesn't specifically follow full reality does it. I understand both of you & both the valid points you two are making.

Hirudora you are using facts from both the manga & our own medical reality to do with the eyes, however I would disregard our own reality because sometimes... Narutoverse just does not follow this =D

FearxDeath is also using facts from the manga. I am more swayed to his side of the argument due to FearxDeath explanations. Kakashi Sharingan is still connected to Obito brain, from FearxDeath explanations & the manga itself, showing Obito saw through Kakashi Sharingan.

I do not know if this was due to the fact that Obito was close to Kakashi. In the Narutoverse we do not know if the actual Sharingan has to be physically attached to it's original user, for the Original user to still be able to have some sort of connection with the Sharingan. We don't know if there is a distance limit, whether Obito was only able to tap into Kakashi eye because they were so close? Kishi has not explained this! We do not know whether Kakashi unlocked the Sharingan to it's MS stage through his own emotional trauma or due to Obito emotional trauma.

Has Tobirama said about emotional trauma or losing a loved one unlocks a special chakra from the brain that travels from the brain to the optic nerve. However this is a Uchiha brain problem lol not a normal person problem, since Kakashi emotional trauma wouldn't unlock special brain chakra the Uchihas do, for MS to unlock for him. So in my opinion that is another way to prove Kakashi Sharingan is still connected to Obito brain because his special brain chakra must of traveled to Kakashi Sharingan too, to unlock MS.

This is my opinion anyway, not saying it's a fact :cool:

Then please, explain how the hell Ao detected Shisui's chakra in Danzou... that's the point I put.
 

OopsWrongHole

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Then please, explain how the hell Ao detected Shisui's chakra in Danzou... that's the point I put.

Ao detecting Shisui chakra in Danzou. Maybe because Danzou had activated Shisui Sharingan, A shinobi using the Sharingan when their a non uchiha, it may use their own chakra at first but when using an eye jutsu like Shisui, it pours out that special type of chakra that came from the brain? Ao referred to it has a different color, yes? Where normally a Shinobi chakra color is blue? Shisui had a special type of Sharingan, Maybe his eyes worked differently than the normal Sharingan, It was never explained to us, nor why his chakra color was different? I sadly do not have a good enough answer :hyper: When I said about "It pours out that special type of chakra that came from the brain" well maybe once Shisui brain did spill out that special chakra to activate MS, Then that special chakra remains in the eye from that moment on, even if that eye is transplanted to a new user?

But yes, you also asked how the brain could be connected to Kakashi Sharingan & I explained how only the Uchihas have the brain symptom that can spill out a special chakra to unlock MS. Kakashi does not have this brain symptom, so the only way his Sharingan became MS was due to Obito brain symptom? What do you think? =D
 
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FearxDeath

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Then please, explain how the hell Ao detected Shisui's chakra in Danzou... that's the point I put.

Dont forget that Danzo didnt only see the Chakra in his eyes, but also in his arm which happened to have hashirama cells in it.. Keep in mind that Danzo had orochimaru test on him in order to extend the time limit of Izangi and you find that Shishuis Chakra sticking around may have been a side effect. Perhaps by having Shishuis chakra their he thus had more Uchiha Chakra and thus more control over Izangi, but what I showed in regards to Kakashis Sharingan having a connection to Obito seems to me atleast to be unrefutable and not for discussion.


Ao detecting Shisui chakra in Danzou. Maybe because Danzou had activated Shisui Sharingan, A shinobi using the Sharingan when their a non uchiha, it may use their own chakra at first but when using an eye jutsu like Shisui, it pours out that special type of chakra that came from the brain? Ao referred to it has a different color, yes? Where normally a Shinobi chakra color is blue? Shisui had a special type of Sharingan, Maybe his eyes worked differently than the normal Sharingan, It was never explained to us, nor why his chakra color was different? I sadly do not have a good enough answer :hyper: When I said about "It pours out that special type of chakra that came from the brain" well maybe once Shisui brain did spill out that special chakra to activate MS, Then that special chakra remains in the eye from that moment on, even if that eye is transplanted to a new user?

But yes, you also asked how the brain could be connected to Kakashi Sharingan & I explained how only the Uchihas have the brain symptom that can spill out a special chakra to unlock MS. Kakashi does not have this brain symptom, so the only way his Sharingan became MS was due to Obito brain symptom? What do you think? =D

You make alot of good points and I do agree with alot of what you have said, and your name is Hilarious!
 

Mr Hiru

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Dont forget that Danzo didnt only see the Chakra in his eyes, but also in his arm which happened to have hashirama cells in it.. Keep in mind that Danzo had orochimaru test on him in order to extend the time limit of Izangi and you find that Shishuis Chakra sticking around may have been a side effect. Perhaps by having Shishuis chakra their he thus had more Uchiha Chakra and thus more control over Izangi, but what I showed in regards to Kakashis Sharingan having a connection to Obito seems to me atleast to be unrefutable and not for discussion.


a) I didn't say "Danzou see", I said "Ao" saw Shisui chakra in Danzou's eyes.

Dont forget that Danzo didnt only see the Chakra in his eyes, but also in his arm which happened to have hashirama cells in it.. Keep in mind that Danzo had orochimaru test on him in order to extend the time limit of Izangi and you find that Shishuis Chakra sticking around may have been a side effect. Perhaps by having Shishuis chakra their he thus had more Uchiha Chakra and thus more control over Izangi, but what I showed in regards to Kakashis Sharingan having a connection to Obito seems to me atleast to be unrefutable and not for discussion.

b) That doesn't convince me at all. My statement about "grafting" and properties inheritance convince me more. Telling that this was a side-effect sounds like an ass-pull (no offense).

Dont forget that Danzo didnt only see the Chakra in his eyes, but also in his arm which happened to have hashirama cells in it.. Keep in mind that Danzo had orochimaru test on him in order to extend the time limit of Izangi and you find that Shishuis Chakra sticking around may have been a side effect. Perhaps by having Shishuis chakra their he thus had more Uchiha Chakra and thus more control over Izangi, but what I showed in regards to Kakashis Sharingan having a connection to Obito seems to me atleast to be unrefutable and not for discussion.

This one has started to convince me, the only plothole I see here is that Tobirama stated that the eye had to be connected to the nervous/chakra system of an Uchiha, and Kakashi's Sharingan was not powered with Uchiha chakra in the moment of awakening. Obito was not even near enough to project chakra and be connected (that's what you showed me when he was in the forest)... so the only logic explanation I have for this is that Tobirama didn't know the Uchiha enough, and "maybe" the vision shared by the eyes was related to the innate ability of the rinnegan to share vision range (an uncompleted version), and ONLY when Obito was in the place the chakra network connected through air somehow and this awakened the MS when Obito was there.

In other words, your unrefutable argument may be right, but it that's the case, it's another asspull since it contradicts what was stated in the manga.
 

FearxDeath

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a) I didn't say "Danzou see", I said "Ao" saw Shisui chakra in Danzou's eyes.

Obvious type-o is obvious, prob shouldnt have wasted time stating the above.


b) That doesn't convince me at all. My statement about "grafting" and properties inheritance convince me more. Telling that this was a side-effect sounds like an ass-pull (no offense).

Sigh, explain to me how grafting and property inheritance works in this sitaution. Do not link me somewhere else, type and explain it to me in full detail so I can understand.


This one has started to convince me, the only plothole I see here is that Tobirama stated that the eye had to be connected to the nervous/chakra system of an Uchiha, and Kakashi's Sharingan was not powered with Uchiha chakra in the moment of awakening. Obito was not even near enough to project chakra and be connected (that's what you showed me when he was in the forest)... so the only logic explanation I have for this is that Tobirama didn't know the Uchiha enough, and "maybe" the vision shared by the eyes was related to the innate ability of the rinnegan to share vision range (an uncompleted version), and ONLY when Obito was in the place the chakra network connected through air somehow and this awakened the MS when Obito was there.

In other words, your unrefutable argument may be right, but it that's the case, it's another asspull since it contradicts what was stated in the manga.


I am going to try to make this very simple:

In the situation with Obito vs Kakashi the question we are left with is whether or not kakashi activated the eye himself or whether Obito activated it in proxy. Now the later seems the most evident because:

1) We know Obito was there at Rins Death
2) We know that Obito his Sharingan which was in kakashi's possession were connected at the time.
3) We have never seen anyone other than an Uchiha awaken higher levels of the Sharingan.

Now there is a very important concept known as Occams Razor, basically what it means is that when you have 2 competing theories the simpler one, or the one that makes the least amount of assumptions, is the more likely theory.

For instance, if you are debating how a person got here. If one person says he drove, and another says he is really a spy and flew here after coming from the hospital where he was nursing his spy injuries. Then the first is the more likely theory as it requires less assumptions.

Now in regards to the 1, 2 and 3 I typed up earlier. Our theories are exactly the same more or less, the only difference is that yours has an added assumption, which is that people who are not born Uchiha can infact awaken higher levels of the Sharingan. And thus by Occams Razor your is less likely.

Now with that said a topic you seem to be caught up on the what Tobirama says, which is weird to me because I have read, and re-read what he says and you are coming to a conclusion that does not reflect his words. In regards to the Sharingan he says this:

"When Uchiha suffer after experiencing the loss of a loved one or despair, a special chakra sprouts inside their brains, which affects the optic nerve and produces the change their eyes... The deeper their darkness becomes, the more powerful the eyes get"

Now based on this we know 2 things, the Sharnigans are a reflection of the Chakra within the brains of the Uchiha, which is powered by despair. The deeper the despair becomes, [the more powerful the chakra becomes], and thus the more powerful their eyes become. But the common factor is always the Special chakra found within the Uchiha's brain.

Now for someone who is not an Uchiha to also awaken a higher level of the Sharingan with their darkness, they too must have special chakra within their brains. But we know they do not because only Uchiha have that... I really truly want to understand your argument? Am I missing something here or am I just crazy? What is it your are arguing?
 
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